[Child-of-the-Emperor]

I'd say it was fickle fate.... The elements that failed were out of his control. He read his brothers near perfectly, his subordinates just weren't up to the task.

I agree. Though the Alpha Legion seemed up to the task; we are still unaware of the aid received from "an unexpected quarter." And it seems certain that the First Legion would have eventually defeated the Night Lords (something I'm sure Horus was also aware of).

And as for the Khagan, from as much of Scars as I've read, it was a reasoned assumption of Horus's that the Scars would have joined him.

 

[Lux]

The first legion defeating the night lords is entirely speculation on your part Child, as their multi year war was a stalemate consistently. Without the Deus ex machina that the Dark Angels were given, their sub sector war likely would have continued to have been a deadlock.

 

[Malus Darkblade]

I have to agree with you Lux otherwise we'd be saying the Night Lords are inferior to the Angels in void/protracted engagements for some reason.

 

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

I have to agree with you Lux otherwise we'd be saying the Night Lords are inferior to the Angels in void/protracted engagements for some reason.

I would suggest that, generally, they were.

 

[ckcrawford]

Thats actually a good point about the Iron Warriors. Unlike most legions with their purges, the Iron Warriors were one of those legions that fell swoop. There is an instance in a short story where there are loyalist Iron Warriors, However, all Iron Warriors were pretty much used pretty terribly.

Even if they had come in last minute and were let inside the walls, it would have been a game winner. Dorn really did buy a good amount of time for the loyalists to come and save Terra.

 

[ckcrawford]

It is interesting that Horus showed his full hand. In fact, not destroying the loyalists on Istvaan completely highlighted that. I think the Iron Warrior's hands were completely shown when they attacked the Imperial Fists fleet and let them get away. In that sense, perhaps there was a notion to keep the traitor legions "in the mist."

 

[Lux]

I would suggest that, generally, they were.

It seems to be purely your opinion, as it was stated their isolated war over the span of several years was a deadlock. Neither legion was able to gain the upper hand over the other, where the Dark angels gained ground they lost ground equally elsewhere. The War was a deadlocked tie, until the writer introduced a Deus Ex Machina to the Dark Angels.

I disagree with your opinion that the Dark Angels are in any way superior to the Night Lords in Void warfare or strategy.

 

[hailene]

I disagree with your opinion that the Dark Angels are in any way superior to the Night Lords in Void warfare or strategy.

Allow me to disagree with you, Lux.

The Night Lords forte is fear and despair. They destroy the enemy within before the first shot is fired.

The Dark Angels, like any other Space Marine, is hardened against almost any fear. The Night Lords are ill suited to face another Space Marine force.

To quote Talos from Soul Hunter about fighting the Mechanicus, a force that is also modified to feel little to no fear:

"Yes, we break them. And we break ourselves upon them. We are fighting the Mechanicus. The Warmaster is bleeding us against targets ill-suited to our Legion's warfare. Titans and servitors and tech-guard? We are wasted against an enemy too inhuman to feel fear."

The Night Lords Legion was not suited to fight a mainly Space Marine force.

I say it would make less sense that the Night Lords were able to hold the Dark Angels at bay than it is for the Dark Angels to win it.

 

[Lux]

Allow me to disagree with you, Lux.

The Night Lords forte is fear and despair. They destroy the enemy within before the first shot is fired.

The Dark Angels, like any other Space Marine, is hardened against almost any fear. The Night Lords are ill suited to face another Space Marine force.

To quote Talos from Soul Hunter about fighting the Mechanicus, a force that is also modified to feel little to no fear:

"Yes, we break them. And we break ourselves upon them. We are fighting the Mechanicus. The Warmaster is bleeding us against targets ill-suited to our Legion's warfare. Titans and servitors and tech-guard? We are wasted against an enemy too inhuman to feel fear."

The Night Lords Legion was not suited to fight a mainly Space Marine force.

I say it would make less sense that the Night Lords were able to hold the Dark Angels at bay than it is for the Dark Angels to win it.

I disagree with your opinion as well as your assumptions, you have assumed that because the night lords are less effective versus the Mechanicum that they are less effective versus a space marine legion. The night lords are masters of fear, sowing despair and as Curze stated "undoing the plans of his opponents". The Mechanicum is for the most part machine, on every level of its operation its personnel is mostly machine more so then human.

However Space Marines are very much human, they feel and experience fear, despair, confusion just as much as Humans do. This is clearly stated in "Know No Fear", that the Ultramarines do feel deep fear, confusion, and despair and that it is very much effecting them. It effected them so much so that they acknowledge that one of their greatest weaknesses was believing that they know no fear in the first place, as it left them open to experiencing fear.

Furthermore Primarchs feel deep fear as well and it greatly influences there actions during battle, Corax felt deep fear when facing Curze (even if it was of his own self) which caused him to flee. Dorn felt great fear towards Curze as well, Vulkan experienced great fear and confusion from Curze during his torture sprees.

Curze's strategy is not to scare the opponent, he clearly explains to sanguinus that his strategy is to not depend upon the opponents tactics. Curze has no intention of countering his opponents strategies, rather he focuses upon undoing his opponents so that their strategies never come to fruition.

Show one instance from any WH40k novel where it clearly states that the night lords are less effective versus space marine legions then their brethren legions, you wont be able to because there are no showings of such in the lore.

Fear effects Space Marines just as much as it does anything else sentient.

The Nightlords did not hold the Dark Angels at bay as you suggested, it states in the text that the Dark Angels were losing ground whenever they gained ground. The Night Lords were actively on the offense against the dark angels, whenever the dark angels gained a victory/world they lost a battle/world.

 

[Rems]

I disagree with your opinion as well as your assumptions, you have assumed that because the night lords are less effective versus the Mechanicum that they are less effective versus a space marine legion. The night lords are masters of fear, sowing despair and as Curze stated "undoing the plans of his opponents". The Mechanicum is for the most part machine, on every level of its operation its personnel is mostly machine more so then human.

However Space Marines are very much human, they feel and experience fear, despair, confusion just as much as Humans do. This is clearly stated in "Know No Fear", that the Ultramarines do feel deep fear, confusion, and despair and that it is very much effecting them. It effected them so much so that they acknowledge that one of their greatest weaknesses was believing that they know no fear in the first place, as it left them open to experiencing fear.

Furthermore Primarchs feel deep fear as well and it greatly influences there actions during battle, Corax felt deep fear when facing Curze (even if it was of his own self) which caused him to flee. Dorn felt great fear towards Curze as well, Vulkan experienced great fear and confusion from Curze during his torture sprees.

Curze's strategy is not to scare the opponent, he clearly explains to sanguinus that his strategy is to not depend upon the opponents tactics. Curze has no intention of countering his opponents strategies, rather he focuses upon undoing his opponents so that their strategies never come to fruition.

Show one instance from any WH40k novel where it clearly states that the night lords are less effective versus space marine legions then their brethren legions, you wont be able to because there are no showings of such in the lore.

Fear effects Space Marines just as much as it does anything else sentient.

The Nightlords did not hold the Dark Angels at bay as you suggested, it states in the text that the Dark Angels were losing ground whenever they gained ground. The Night Lords were actively on the offense against the dark angels, whenever the dark angels gained a victory/world they lost a battle/world.

One of the central themes about Space Marines is that they do not in fact, feel fear. At least not in the same way normal humans experience it. A human is easily frightened, and when we are we freeze up, we become cautious and jumpy.

A Space Marine can fight the horrors of the galaxy without flinching. They can face down impossible odds without succumbing to despair. They simply don't feel fear like regular people. Instead they suppress, ignore or control it, use it to spur themselves on via deteriantion and anger. There's an entire rule in the game based around Space Marine's indifference to fear 'And They Shall Know No Fear'. It's one of the central quotations of the Space Marines. They're callused killers who have fought and killed the worst the galaxy has thrown at them for decades or centuries. On top of that is all the indoctrination and hypno-therapy they experience. What exactly is going to scare them? Certainly nothing the Night Lords could do.

Corax didn't fear Curze. He was confident he could handle them. He was worried about his Legion though and knew if he stayed to fight they would be destroyed and he would eventually be dragged down. That's not fear, that's tactical sense.

The Dark Angels would have eventually won. Aside from the Night Lord's disadvantage of their preferred tactics being less effective against Space Marines is their leadership. The Lion is repeatedly said to be one of the greatest tacticians amongst the Primarchs, he's numbered among those with the greatest number of victories. Curze is not. He's no fool, and he's certainly very effective in his preferred tactics and targets but he simply doesn't have the tactical and strategic acumen that Lion el Johnson does.

 

[hailene]

However Space Marines are very much human, they feel and experience fear, despair, confusion just as much as Humans do.

Yeah...no. They don't. If all your assumptions are based upon this, then you have either missed the fluff or just pulling stuff from your butt.

It effected them so much so that they acknowledge that one of their greatest weaknesses was believing that they know no fear in the first place, as it left them open to experiencing fear.

Citation?

Furthermore Primarchs feel deep fear as well and it greatly influences there actions during battle

Different entirely. Primarchs are everything that is human, magnified by a couple orders. Space Marines are cut down post-humans.

Curze's strategy is not to scare the opponent, he clearly explains to sanguinus that his strategy is to not depend upon the opponents tactics. Curze has no intention of countering his opponents strategies, rather he focuses upon undoing his opponents so that their strategies never come to fruition.

No, it IS his plan to scare his opponent. He expects to cripple his opponent through fear.

"It has been said by tacticians throughout the ages of mankind that no plan survives contact with the enemy. I do not waste my time countering the plans of my foes, brother. I never care what the enemy intends to do, for they will never be allowed to do it. Stir within their hearts the gift of truest terror, and all their plans are ruined in the desperate struggle merely to survive."

Fear effects Space Marines just as much as it does anything else sentient.

Tech guard and Titan crews are sentient.

The Nightlords did not hold the Dark Angels at bay as you suggested, it states in the text that the Dark Angels were losing ground whenever they gained ground.

I don't think you know what "holding at bay" means.

But I'll clarify what I meant. Neither the Lion nor Curze was able to decisively destroy the other's forces for the first 2 years of the Thramas Crusade.

 

[MEQinc]

One of the central themes about Space Marines is that they do not in fact, feel fear. At least not in the same way normal humans experience it.

The qualification there is very important. Space Marines do feel fear, they just feel it differently. Lightning in the marrow, Night Haunter calls it at one point. Fear is still there, it can still be exploited. The fact that Space Marines believe themselves immune to fear just makes exploiting it even easier.

There's an entire rule in the game based around Space Marine's indifference to fear 'And They Shall Know No Fear'. It's one of the central quotations of the Space Marines.

I think it's worth noting that this rule doesn't exist for Heresy era Marines and we've been shown repeatedly that Crusade era Marines are not as heavily brain-washed as 40k era ones.

Corax didn't fear Curze. He was confident he could handle them.

Yes, he was so confident he could handle them he decided to run away, makes perfect sense.

The Dark Angels would have eventually won. Aside from the Night Lord's disadvantage of their preferred tactics being less effective against Space Marines is their leadership. The Lion is repeatedly said to be one of the greatest tacticians amongst the Primarchs, he's numbered among those with the greatest number of victories. Curze is not. He's no fool, and he's certainly very effective in his preferred tactics and targets but he simply doesn't have the tactical and strategic acumen that Lion el Johnson does.

But we are shown repeatedly, indeed in every mention of the Thramis Crusade, that the Night Lords are not loosing. They are not ineffective, they are not outmatched. Night Haunter and his Legion are completely capable of neutralizing the Lion and his with absolutely no indication given that the NL's are slowly being beaten back or that a Dark Angel victory is somehow inevitable. Indeed we are also shown the Lion's composure fracturing during this drawn out engagement, could we not point to that and say that a Night Lord victory is inevitable due to them winning the psychological war they are famous for?

The simple fact is that the Thramis Crusade was not going anywhere any time soon. It is possible that the Dark Angels would've been able to out-think the Night Lords and claim a victory but it is equally possible that the Night Lords would've been able to fracture their composure and make the Lion's brilliance irrelevant. We simply can't say. All I think we can say is that without the Lion's sudden turn to heresy the Crusade would've dragged on long past the point of relevance to the siege of Terra.

 

[Angel of Blood]

Right, let's get back on topic people. Getting too derailed now.

 

[Lux]

Wonderfully put MEQinc, how do I rep you.

 

[Zooey72]

Be nice for the traitors if it worked out, but can't see how it could. Some good points have been made but the one that I can't see a way around is how do you cover up the purges? The loyalist forces would want to know why 25-33% of a supposed 'loyalist' legion suddenly died. Not to mention why did most of the dead "coincidently" come from Terra instead of the Primarchs home planet? Garro proved to the loyalist that not every traitor legion had 100% support from their men.

It kind of reminds me of the whole 911 truthers thing. The scale and scope of a cover up like this would be too hard to keep secret, and too complicated to execute.

If there was going to be any chance of it, it would come from Alpha Legion since that is their thing.

 

[Vaz]

I would suggest that, generally, they were.

Lacking the experience in it, I'd say being the reason why. I also believe it was Savage Weapons which mentioned that they were losing. Or it might have been coming from the Lion, which was from te DA's PoV; although that may have meant tactical victories, rather than strategic (which the Night Lords "had"; by keeping the DA pinned, it was victory enough).

Like the Luna Wolves, World Eaters, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves, the Night Lords were an a Shock and Awe (and force feed you your own testicals while they're still attached to yourself, make you shit them out, then make you eat them again). Doctrine went against it.

In particular, the Night Lords would possibly have lacked extended operations auxiliary support from their own fleets; and the allies they're with the Army would be unlikely to have more to do than mop up (and possibly fight an insurgency following the Night Lords "Gulf War" type strikes), extended campaigns that Dark Angels, Raven Guard, Ultramarines, Salamanders, Iron Hands, Iron Warriors and Death Guard were more adept at fighting would not lead to much inter-reliability; in effect, the Night Lords would be used similar to how a Kill Team would be used to extract/eliminate HVT's in todays world; think ofthe UBL take down; they flew in a team after a few months of preparation (not including the Info ground work; the kill teams job itself), 30 minute operation, shot the fucker, then bugged out.

There would however be other SEAL's (Marines) from a different unit (Legion) who would be equally adept at the operation, but fresh troops who were dedicated to smash and grabs would be perfect.

____

Slight derail; One thing I've yet to work out; I re-read Promethean Sun and the Iron Hands short in the Primarchs; trying to understand why on earth 3 Primarchs and their respective legions were unable to eliminate a single world after multiple months of operations. I know it's a "Kyme" (shiiiiiiitttttt), but is there any other explanation as to it?

 

[forkmaster]

The only reason Curze held out as long as he did was because he fled most of the time. The Lion chased him, making some military victories, then Curze slipped and reclaimed those worlds in a never-ending-war. That balance changed when the Lion gain the abillity to travel much fast than Curze, making his hit and flee tacticts useless. Hence why a 3rd of his Legion was killed pretty much.

 

[hailene]

Savage Weapons which mentioned that they were losing.

"Savage Weapons" states that things were in steady deadlock.

"‘Then continue the hunt,’ Alajos insisted. ‘We catch their fleets–’ ‘As often as they catch ours.’ The Lion spoke through closed teeth, his armoured shoulders rising and falling with his heavy breath. ‘For twenty-six months I have chased him. For twenty-six months, he has fled from me, burning worlds before we arrive, crippling supply routes, annihilating Mechanicum outposts. Every ambush we plan, he slips from our fingers, wriggling away unseen. For every victory we claim, Curze gifts us with a loss in return. It is not a hunt, Alajos. If a primarch does not fall, this will be war without end. And neither he nor I will fall without death bestowed by a brother’s hand.'"