This just came up in a discussion with my brother, if you have two otherwise identical models, but one of them has fired their Combi-Melta, do they count as armed differently for Wound allocation?
Winterous
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Combi-weapons and Wound allocation.
What they are equipped with and what they use in the shooting phase are two different things.
You allocate wounds to them to them as being equipped the same.
You allocate wounds to them to them as being equipped the same.
That's what I figured it would be.
But with the recent FAQ of one-shot vehicle weapons not counting as weapons anymore, I thought it would be wise to confirm.
(one-shot weapons that have been expended having been FAQd to not count for Weapon Destroyed results)
Thanks for the answers
But with the recent FAQ of one-shot vehicle weapons not counting as weapons anymore, I thought it would be wise to confirm.
(one-shot weapons that have been expended having been FAQd to not count for Weapon Destroyed results)
Thanks for the answers
Not that I was drawing a comparison for rules purposes, it just seemed like there may be some relevance, so I thought it best to ask.
OK people, less witty personal banter, more rules discussion.
-DK
I actually agree that they are treated separately for wound allocation. The rules say you allocate wounds for models that are alike in game terms which makes a used combi and an unused combi different.
-DK
I actually agree that they are treated separately for wound allocation. The rules say you allocate wounds for models that are alike in game terms which makes a used combi and an unused combi different.
Aah yes, that would seem to be the answer right there.
Damnit, why couldn't I just have not been lazy and actually checked the rule? :laugh:
So, from that, they are distinguished from non-expended Combis by RAW.
"in game terms" means how it is used in-game. Which a used combi is a boltgun in game terms and an unused combi is still a combi in game terms.
in game terms a used/unused combi weapon is still a combi weapon, they don't have seperate descriptions, in this case you allocate wounds based on wargear, not based on what someone has or has not fired during the game.
otherwise you could start getting really anal about rubbish like that
"these 2 models armed exactly the same are different because this model has fired his lascannon twice this one has fired hs lascannon once, so one is armed with a used lascanon the other a slightly more used lascannon"
a combi weapon is a combi weapon, fired or not, it is a combi weapon, not a seperate type of weapon.
otherwise you could start getting really anal about rubbish like that
"these 2 models armed exactly the same are different because this model has fired his lascannon twice this one has fired hs lascannon once, so one is armed with a used lascanon the other a slightly more used lascannon"
a combi weapon is a combi weapon, fired or not, it is a combi weapon, not a seperate type of weapon.
Nothing in this statement changes how the model is used in-game, unlike a combi-weapon.
It's not only how the model is armed but how it is used in-game that matters.
to be honest I don't want to get in the middle, but I don't see how firing a combi weapons secondary ammo relieves it of being a combi weapon, although it is a bit cheap, I don't remember seeing any rules which state that weapons can change type. For instance if you purchase a combi melta for your Canoness the war-gear option is "combi-weapon, bolter-melta". This does not change at any point throughout the course of the game. The description states:
"...may choose which of the weapons he is going to use in the shooting phase.The bolter may be fired any number of times, but the other weapon may be fired only once per battle."
Now if we are playing rule lawyering, then the rules for this weapon are never modified, even if shot. You shoot the secondary weapon then the rules still apply "...The bolter may be fired any number of times, but the other weapon may be fired only once per battle."
Just because you already fired the secondary weapon doesn't mean that the rules suddenly alter, and the combi weapon revers to a bolter, or else it would be something like:
Bolter- Xpoints
-Melta attachment
-Flamer attachment
-yadda yadda yada
If it was like this, then I can see how the one shot rule would apply, but its not, its
Combi Weapon
-Bolter-melta
etc...
Although it may be cheap and needing of a FAQ, the rule is quite clear imo, I would have to say that stella is correct. (note that this is just for witch hunters, the space marine dex even takes it a bit forward by presenting the fact that you go through the weapons rules, then go through the rules for firing the specific weapon, this would be done each time you fire, proving that it is indeed a separate weapon at all times)
"...may choose which of the weapons he is going to use in the shooting phase.The bolter may be fired any number of times, but the other weapon may be fired only once per battle."
Now if we are playing rule lawyering, then the rules for this weapon are never modified, even if shot. You shoot the secondary weapon then the rules still apply "...The bolter may be fired any number of times, but the other weapon may be fired only once per battle."
Just because you already fired the secondary weapon doesn't mean that the rules suddenly alter, and the combi weapon revers to a bolter, or else it would be something like:
Bolter- Xpoints
-Melta attachment
-Flamer attachment
-yadda yadda yada
If it was like this, then I can see how the one shot rule would apply, but its not, its
Combi Weapon
-Bolter-melta
etc...
Although it may be cheap and needing of a FAQ, the rule is quite clear imo, I would have to say that stella is correct. (note that this is just for witch hunters, the space marine dex even takes it a bit forward by presenting the fact that you go through the weapons rules, then go through the rules for firing the specific weapon, this would be done each time you fire, proving that it is indeed a separate weapon at all times)
This is a weird topic, if you give someone a Combi-Weapon, they have a unique and different piece of wargear for wound allocation purposes unless all the other models have Combi-Weapons as well. Even after they have used it, they still have it, it's just run out of it's extra ammo (Plasma, Flamer or Melta)
It's really that simple folks.
It's really that simple folks.
They define the same in gaming terms as The same profile, special rules, weapons and wargear. Both the unfired and fired Combi weapon are the same bit of wargear so it makes no odds on the 'state' of that wargear.
That said this kinda thing will pretty much never come up as complex unit wound allocation is almost much always used, unless you manage to get your sergeant killed for whatever reason.
That said this kinda thing will pretty much never come up as complex unit wound allocation is almost much always used, unless you manage to get your sergeant killed for whatever reason.
I view it this way:
I have 6 sternguard, 2 combi meltas, 2 combi flamers, a bolter and a sgt with a bolter power/PW. That is 4 different model types. If and I'm thinking as a sternguard space marine, Joe my combie melta buddy and I went to combi melta class to know how to use the combi meltas are in the squad listed above. I fired my combi melta at a rhino. Later in the fight Joe gets tagged in the head. I know joe never fired his combi melta. I am going to grab his so that I can use it. Or Joe still has his combi melta and a crap ton of fire is coming down on us. I jump in front of Joe "For The Emperor!" knowing that the squad needs Joe's combi melta and if I die I get to be put in a kewl dread (maybe). Combi meltas are combi meltas fired or not. Its the same or we need to allow the person firing at us allocate the hits then he rolls to wound and we save after that. I me to me it makes sense. Crap!!!! He has a Lascannon! Everyone fire at the lascannon guy. Its target priority but thats not the way it works so we need to go with K.I.S.S. and play the game.
I have 6 sternguard, 2 combi meltas, 2 combi flamers, a bolter and a sgt with a bolter power/PW. That is 4 different model types. If and I'm thinking as a sternguard space marine, Joe my combie melta buddy and I went to combi melta class to know how to use the combi meltas are in the squad listed above. I fired my combi melta at a rhino. Later in the fight Joe gets tagged in the head. I know joe never fired his combi melta. I am going to grab his so that I can use it. Or Joe still has his combi melta and a crap ton of fire is coming down on us. I jump in front of Joe "For The Emperor!" knowing that the squad needs Joe's combi melta and if I die I get to be put in a kewl dread (maybe). Combi meltas are combi meltas fired or not. Its the same or we need to allow the person firing at us allocate the hits then he rolls to wound and we save after that. I me to me it makes sense. Crap!!!! He has a Lascannon! Everyone fire at the lascannon guy. Its target priority but thats not the way it works so we need to go with K.I.S.S. and play the game.
yes, how can you say that it turns into a bolter at any point?
It does not stand out when 'firing' said bolt rounds, but the only reason you CAN fire bolt rounds is because the combi-weapon rules state you can fire it as a boltgun, just as you CAN fire its secondary ammo once per game, it is and will always be a combi-weapon. But when allocating wounds, if you had two of the same combi-weapon then they would be grouped together, which could potentially lose you a unused combi-weapon.
The only time this rule is beneficial is when you only have one of said combi-weapon, and that's usually only going to be a sgt anyways.
Just to be clear here, a Combi-Melta, and a Combi-Melta which has expended its Melta-ness are NOT the same piece of wargear.
Yeah, they have the same name, but one is capable of something, where the other is not capable of it.
Yeah, they have the same name, but one is capable of something, where the other is not capable of it.
I am still leaning towards them being treated the same for wound allocation.
A combi-weapon is a combi-weapon, regardless if it has fired or not.
It doesn't magically turn into a Bolter.
Taken from another forum....
Regarding wound allocation, there has been much made of this, but the rulebook is pretty clear IMO, models that are "Identical in gaming terms" are defined as those that "have the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear", and these identical models take saving throws as a group.
While a Combi weapon may no longer function as anything other than a bolter, there's nothing in it's rules which say it ceases to be a combi-weapon, or becomes anything else.
So the act of firing off a Combi weapon is insufficient to distinguish one member of a squad from another with an unfired Combi weapon, you would roll thier armour saves together, and assuming you failed any, would presumably remove the spent combi weapons before the unspent ones.
A combi-weapon is a combi-weapon, regardless if it has fired or not.
It doesn't magically turn into a Bolter.
Taken from another forum....
Regarding wound allocation, there has been much made of this, but the rulebook is pretty clear IMO, models that are "Identical in gaming terms" are defined as those that "have the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear", and these identical models take saving throws as a group.
While a Combi weapon may no longer function as anything other than a bolter, there's nothing in it's rules which say it ceases to be a combi-weapon, or becomes anything else.
So the act of firing off a Combi weapon is insufficient to distinguish one member of a squad from another with an unfired Combi weapon, you would roll thier armour saves together, and assuming you failed any, would presumably remove the spent combi weapons before the unspent ones.
A brick wall made of fact though. 'Game terms' are defined in the rulebook, A Combi-Melta is a weapon. It doesn't stop being a Combi-Melta after you fire it so a Sternguard who has fired his is identical in 'Game Terms' to one who has not.
Page 25 BRB
"have the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear".
Regardless of if they use their single shot or not, the models still have the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules, the same weapons, and the same wargear.
If you can find me a rule that overrides this one, then please show me.
"have the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear".
Regardless of if they use their single shot or not, the models still have the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules, the same weapons, and the same wargear.
If you can find me a rule that overrides this one, then please show me.
That's like saying what Stella was saying, this lascannon has fired, this one has not. Juts because part 2 of the combi-weapon is unable to fire doesn't mean that it cieses
to be a combi-weapon.
come on guys, as much fun as name calling can be, I don't think this is the time nor place to do it.
Winterous: I respect your opinions, but it seems that your argument is not supported well enough to make aramoro or me believe it. Don't say that our counter arguments are equated to talking to a brick wall, because that just makes your argument seem less noteworthy. You are saying that a combi-weapon is not the same as a combi-weapon after its fired. If it weren't then there would be a alternative profile, or a reference to the fact in the rules (ie: after being fired x weapon reverts to y, or after being fired x weapon is considered y for all intents and purposes.), or even a FAQ mention. However as it stands there is not, and therefore x is x, not y.
What I meant by the brick wall comment was exactly that 'weapon has fired' 'counter-argument' that Stella proposed, it's utter stupidity, as to draw that from my argument was basically to completely ignore my argument.
But you're right, I apologise for that comment, except to Stella, to whom it was justified.
Basically the whole discussion balances on how the rulebook defines 'identical in gaming terms'.
It says, roughly "By this we mean with the same characteristics, weapons, and wargear.".
My point of view is that 'the same' means 'equal', for two Combi-weapons to be equal, they must be of equal value and status; if one is expended and the other is not, they are not equal.
But you're right, I apologise for that comment, except to Stella, to whom it was justified.
Basically the whole discussion balances on how the rulebook defines 'identical in gaming terms'.
It says, roughly "By this we mean with the same characteristics, weapons, and wargear.".
My point of view is that 'the same' means 'equal', for two Combi-weapons to be equal, they must be of equal value and status; if one is expended and the other is not, they are not equal.
So if we look solely at current stats for determining if it is a like model then if you had 4 Nobs, 2 with PK, and 2 with choppas everything else is the same as far as war gear however one PK has been wounded and 1 choppa has been wounded now none of the models have the same stat line. You have a PK with 2 wounds, a PK with 1 wound, a choppa with 2 wounds, and a choppa with 1 wound. That is 4 different stats now.
A combi-melta is a combi-melta is a combi-melta, end of story. Just because it has fired does not mean it ceases to be a combi-melta. Nothing in the rules supports this.
When you buy a piece of Wargear for a model, that model has that piece of Wargear equipped. Just because he is barred from using that wargear does not mean it is ever removed or replaced by anything else.
Give a page out of the BRB or a FAQ that states that a spent combi-melta magically transforms into a Bolter. I'm willing to bet that no such rule exists, because it makes no sense, and i've never EVER seen someone magnetize all their models' hands so they can replace the combi-weapon with a normal Boltgun once it's been used.
Its much like if i have a 6-shot revolver and i fire all 6 shots. An empty revolver is functionally a club, but i am NOT armed with a club, i'm armed with an (empty) revolver.
When you buy a piece of Wargear for a model, that model has that piece of Wargear equipped. Just because he is barred from using that wargear does not mean it is ever removed or replaced by anything else.
Give a page out of the BRB or a FAQ that states that a spent combi-melta magically transforms into a Bolter. I'm willing to bet that no such rule exists, because it makes no sense, and i've never EVER seen someone magnetize all their models' hands so they can replace the combi-weapon with a normal Boltgun once it's been used.
Its much like if i have a 6-shot revolver and i fire all 6 shots. An empty revolver is functionally a club, but i am NOT armed with a club, i'm armed with an (empty) revolver.
Yeah it's more of a feeling on my part as well (yes I have them in here somewhere). Just the idea that an unfired melta is much different from a useless one.
Since we're on pg 6 and Wint and I are the only ones bucking the trend I'm gonna go ahead and drop the shades on this one.
Since we're on pg 6 and Wint and I are the only ones bucking the trend I'm gonna go ahead and drop the shades on this one.
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