I move a lot. So, I am currently in my third group. Everything has been pretty good. In one place, I was the only English speaker and it was very friendly.

Guess I just havent experienced those people.

 

Not the feel at my old hobby store at all. Even some of the turds in the group (or "Neils") are still welcoming and encouraging to little Johnny with his paint-caked ultramarines. Only problem for new players is its hard to get a game because the two gaming tables are often booked 2 hours or longer in advance.

I really miss that place since the move. Portola Plaza California in the best game store I have ever been to. With my new store being crappy in the exact ways you describe and school picking up I haven't played a game in months. (however this has given me lots of time to paint)

Point is, some places yes, other places no.

P.S. Thanks to this site my interest in the hobby never waned despite this. Thank you Heresy!

 

I've never been discouraged by a player....even though I did have to play this guy that always rolled behind the largest pieces of terrain where no one else could see and always seemed to roll so well. This was a grown ass man mind you.

But, yeah, the only things that have ever discouraged me from wanting to play more 40k has been the prohibitive cost, and lack of time.

 

The problem that you describe is a problem with an individual, or a group of individuals, who have social anxiety and not 40k or 40k players. This is a common affliction that I have encountered in friends (and not friends) that I have met in FLGSs in three states, 4 cities, and over three decades of gamimg. New people are seen as an intrusion, an upset if you will, in their stable social group that requires the individual to reassert their place, or perhaps dominance, in that circle. I have played, worked, and managed hobby stores since I was in high school (uh, late 80s that is) and it absolutely not 40K, it is the dynamics of certain individuals that have had a very difficult time socially at school or at home their whole lives and it appears in any social group. The FLGS is an awesome place folks folks that don't otherwise get a lot of positive attention to shine, to use their talents of creativity among true peers, and for some that is a positive and enriching environment. For others this becomes their only means of acquiring self-worth and thus must be absolutely retained by refusing new challenges. What if the new player is actually better, God forbid? Folks like this can take a dark direction and their peer group at the FLGS becomes a means to inflict the abuse that they have, or at least feel that they have, received from others. It is not 40k that makes rude people and every social group has the same sorts of people in it. Like all bullies, because ironically that is what they are, they are managed by refusing to be intimidated. I've always seen those rude sorts of people losing their friends to new players rather than gaining more.

 

I think this is a very insightful response. I have, and never have had, any issues walking into a situation and being bold (I boldly go, if you will). Indeed, I was a product rep for a gaming company for many years, so being reticent and defensive of my social circle was simply not an option.

And I think that the point regarding this being beyond 40K is also highly valid, but from my perspective, I have always been the incumbent member of the social circle that invites others to join for the other games I play. So I didn't really view it from the "store owner" perspective of watching those social situations play out.

This is a discussion which will expand far beyond the original point if we continue to follow "The Dog Boy"'s extrapolation of the situation. But at it's core, I suppose I have discovered, even after 25 years of gaming, that the stereotypical, socially awkward "gamer" still exists although in my case they were quite a bit more adept - but then that could reflect dominance, established order and a closed community which could have been developing for a number of years.

 

Nerds are hard to get along with.

I gave up on playing at the FLGS, especially anything half-way competitive (tournaments). They bring out the worst people.

My LGS is my house and I get to select who plays. Never been a happier gamer.

 

See, I am REALLY trying to avoid that. I have the terrain, the space, and the perfectly sized table (i.e. it's the table dimensions that they were thinking of when they called these things tabletop games) - and I am sure I could acquire the people to come over and actually play through visiting Games Workshop more regularly to get in touch with like minded gamers.

But you don't know how tempted I am to follow your path - and that depresses me because I think that 40K is a healthier game than many think, they just do what you do, and what I am considering doing, and don't go to public places to play.

 

Was thinking about it. The place I play now used to have people like what you are talking about. Bit before my time, but what happened was people refused to play them. So they either smartened up or stopped coming.

On a broader note, I think that this socially awkward type exists in ever class; not just gamers or 40k in particular.

Off topic, but when you say gaming table are you talking the 8 by 12 that chainmail goes by? If you are, I would recommend grabbing a copy of the rules. They are pretty tight and well written, and well, Gary Gygax is just awesome. My friends and I, while I was living in South Korea, used the rules to recreate The Battle for Dongnae. It was on old historical battle where the Koreans were invaded by the Japanese and were outnumbered 6 to 1. I directed the Koreans and my friends played the Japanese. Feeling bad for me, the gave me extra archers. I ended up winning. :biggrin:

Fun times.

 

Excellent topic man. Nice to see a topic thats not about how OP'd something is or how much we hate Matt Ward...even tho he is just a guy doin his job.

I guess Ill tell you what I tell most people who hack on the nerds. I can have a game with a guy who has never seen a tit in his life, play and leave and he won't talk shit about me. Thats rare in any society in any country. Think about it, how much shit talkin goes on when you aren't there by people who don't play the hobby. Id rather hang with people who are socially awkward. they're REAL. He may laugh and snort or come off as arrogant or a jerk. But he's himself, he's not pretending to be cool, he's there to play a game that we both enjoy.

As for buying your way into the game...thats human nature..no one will take the time to learn something if they can just buy their way in *looks at professional sports before salary caps*

I agree with notsoevil, If i want a game without commentary or unsavories I play at home. Its a nice change and the bathroom is always free

And Ive never seen nor experienced a gaming shop where new people were shunned, if anything they have been welcomed in open arms. One kid walked out 100 bucks worth of prizing the vets won but didnt truly need...but it could just be a canadian thing lol

 

If what the OP is describing was the norm then the game and the company would be a distant memory,gaming is a social pass time and gamers are generally the the most laid back welcoming bunch you will meet.....but every now and then a bad egg will make it into the box.

 

In reality? I've met one or two unpleasant folks- plenty of awkward folks too, admittedly, but not bad- in my experiences, but overall it hasn't been too bad. Online is a slightly different story.

Heresy Online is a really nice place compared to most sites, but even then I still occasionally see a few people who I would want absolutely nothing to do with because they do fit into that stereotype...Such things exist for a reason, unfortunately.

 

I have had a very limited exposure to the wider gaming community. When i used to play epic space marine back in the late 80's it was with a group of players who were also friends i had met through other things. When i restarted the hobby in 07 i had no-one to game with until i moved back to Australia in 2010. I have had one game at the local games shop and found the guys there to be friendly and welcoming to a relative noob. Because of my work commitments i usually play at home with a friend where i can be with the kids and have a good time at home. It is not me shunning the wider community it is just what works for me.

 

Just depends on the store for my area , the one I went to before had many younger people who played to WAAC and it wasn't overly fun , I then found an 40k warhammer club that has rules (the biggest being don't be that guy) and everyone is very helpful and friendly. To be fair I found the same cliques in everything so while I see your point I can't put the fault to anything particular besides that's how people are.

 

Are you sure the people you just described are "penquins" as you put it?

It looked to me that at least half of those points you listed (never making eye-contact and being socially awkward rang alarm bells) are clear signs of something on the Autistic spectrum disorder. That's speaking from personal experiance of being one (Although thanks to a supportive Mum and a stubborn refusal to give up I can pass myself off as normal to most people)

As for my store. We are a close community and I can't speak for everyone but we tend to welcome anyone who walks in. Its just better to be nicer that way. If someone wonders over to a game and starts looking interested and asking questions about models (How did you make that tiger? Can I take a closer look at it?) then I happily oblige and answer question, look at models (So long as they are not in play) etc.

 

I would say, based on my experience with autism, that yes, some of those individuals DEFINITELY exhibit some of those warning signs and yes, I notice and generally don't take offense to them.

It's the more concerted, group-based unfriendly reactions (walk in to a store where there is say a "club" or just a group of friends and you are just not a welcome part of their day).

One such individual is HIGHLY intimidated by women. My wife is also interested in playing, and it's fascinating to watch how people get hyper sensitive about her presence - It's a sexism thing but not from the point of sexism, but seems to me to be pure fear and an inability to know how to act.

Of course, her being female and a gamer has been an interesting situation in other games too - people are either intimidated, or convinced she's the girl for them, or actually somewhat "normal." Women are particularly tricky when a new female player enters their world. Its often immediate "conflict" or "OMG another woman, thank god!" and that's been the case for 25 years - I have seen it constantly.

 

I have encountered cliqeiness and elitist at my FWGS, but I make an effort to try and socialize with them and eventually they have come to like me, and i don't think it is this kind of attitude that causes new players to shy away. In my experiences I have found that they loss to many times even when going up against an easy list or they do not have enough income to get a large enough army. So they tend to take up watching or quite table top gaming all together.

 

I've only been in a games workshop once in my life that was glasgow last year when i was just looking into starting to paint. It was purely for a nosey round and a closer look at the display stands. There was at that time two games going on and the place was quite busy i must of stuck out as a new guy some how as i was offered several times a chance to play by staff and gamers one even offered a shot with his army. So to me that was more than encouraging to a new person i did however say no the gaming side really isnt for me. (im not a sore loser i just dont lose if you catch my drift).

 

I recently had a similar experience that you describe. After finding a relatively local gaming group I decided to go along to the FLGS it used once a week. The initial impression was positive, most of the guys seemed to be of a more mature calibre like myself. However, as I wandered around the various games going on I found that any question I asked was greeted with a cold shoulder, an abrupt answer or no response at all. Suffice it to say I didn't hang around for long or go back a second time.

Considering the age profile I was very surprised by this response. If they were all spotty teens the likes of which hang around the local GW I might have just put it down to the age difference, but they all seemd in the 25-40 group.

and trying to figure out if those models from Advanced Space Crusade would be usable for something.

Oh they're very usable. I have a whole pile of ASC scout models that may soon begin a new life in my great Company.

 

I was thinking back to when i was a teen and i do remember a clique in a club, it was many years ago when i joined a club in leeds, the club had a hard core group of Napoleonic players, they were very insular, very anal about detail(uniforms had to be painted historically) and incredibly dull people.
But if you showed a genuine interest in the period of history they were fairly welcoming, i got the impression that they were very stand off ish with strangers because they had suffered a certain amount of ribbing or abuse about there "hobby" and as they tended to be gentlemen of a certain age they were not concerned about sparing people feelings or wasting time with people who had no interest in the game they play, they saw the "scifi" gamers as kids whos games were just a flash in the pan and brightly coloured nonsense (early nineties 40k was like the rainbow).

 

I ahve not had the experience myself as I am quite an extroverted person and will strike up a conversation with anyone around if I have a few minutes to spare.

However I have noticed that in my Local GW's that the regular players were a bit wary of playing me the first time I turned up to the store but when I got my first game and started to place my mini's on the table after laying down my pre-printed army list I was readily accepted as one of them.

New Starters however seem to be ignored more then most, especially those under the age of 16 (in appearance) I think that this is because mainly they're in the hobby for a brief time and hardly ever attend the store or the local gaming groups

 

Are players of 40K (or Games Workshop games in general) harming their own hobby through a general attitude of elitism and cliquey-ness which makes it very difficult for new players to feel welcomed or even wanted?

I'd definately say yes to this, these kinds of gamers have turned me off completely from playing 40k or fantasy (faulty rules don't help either), the attitude of modern GW gamers is disgusting, elitism is one way of putting it, but being assholes is probably more accurate.

I see allot of new players join the game and basically play games amongst themselves not learning anything because they just don't want some fat ugly stinking trenchcoat wearing asshat beating them on turn 1 then gloating about it directly in there faces, eventually they simply quit because they just get bored of the game and go play something shitty like yu-gi-oh cards.

games workshop staff don't help the situations either, they usually just don't care that little johnny is alone in a corner or they are one of said asshats.

 

I'd say I'm an ambassador. I've converted a couple of friends to the game, got a relative interested in the Space Marine video game, and outed myself to my co-workers.

Part of it is just finding things in common with other people. Sometimes it works, other times I find I have nothing in common with the person and it comes down to staying polite for the time I'm there.

In terms of the FLGS on the island, one will not carry GW product (he had some very bad experiences) and the other two do. I now visit all of them regularly and meet many more of the players.

One owner did say he has difficultly getting the gaming groups to want to play each other (he has some gaming tables in the back). Most groups it seems will play only within the group. Few, if any, are willing to.

I also think that logistics might play into it. My gaming group has four core players (and then the 2 new ones that are my other friends) so any more people is not really workable. We can break up into pairs easy enough as is.

The quarterly tournaments are a good way of meeting others, though that does tend to be only chatting rather than playing. We usually have enough players as is (our last game was a 5-army free-for-all). I can't say I've met anyone that was standoffish or rude during those times. Everyone seemed willing to answer questions and show off their models.

 

I'm not trying to offend someone here, and this is speaking from personal experiences but I do think some people in this game have borderline Asperges.

For example, I had a game against someone who walked over to my side of the board and refused to move when I asked to grab dice politely.

Back to the topic though, the people at my gaming store are INCREDIBLY friendly. I got into a heated discussion tonight about eldar's usefullness as soon as I walked into the store. He just stright up asked me a question, which ended up in two close fought 2v2 games and a new friend in my books.

Not to mention the fact I whipped out my necrons and started painting them a purple and boltgun scheme and got a few compliments within 10 minutes of starting and painting tips from another person I've never met before.

I think its not just "nerds" but nationality to an extent. Australians are an easy people to get along with from my experience. I can strike up a conversation with a complete stranger about almost anything. Another example is on the bus home, someone asked what in the hell my monolith was.

Some wise advice from my step-dad is people will always stay true to their character, you just have to pick it. If someones a blatant fuckwit, they will obviously give you the cold sholder. its up to you to pick a group of people who arn't fuckwits.

 

I'm not trying to offend someone here, and this is speaking from personal experiences but I do think some people in this game have borderline Asperges.

I'll probably be making a lot of enemies by stating this, but heh, sometimes the truth hurts.
Asperger syndrome is a medical (read psychological) condition which surely exists and thus is diagnosed appropriately in some people that actually suffer from it. That's all fine.
BUT nowadays it is sadly often used as a cheap excuse to rationalize away, or point away from, people's obvious lack of social and/or communication skills which are clearly not the result of an autism spectrum disorder.
Asperger is probably the most widely misused diagnosis right behind ADHD.

 

I'm no phycologist so I wouldn't know, but my friend has major Asperges and he is really hard to talk to sometimes, so I was just going off that. I know some people could be generally socially awkward.

Its a fine line sometimes.

 

If you approach their game and show interest, you receive not just a cold shoulder, but an actively unfriendly environment. That you could or would have the gall to interrupt a game between a group of friends is simply "bad form." Additionally, those people would really rather you didn't have hope of getting in to their clique - who knows why.

They would most likely seem unfriendly at first glance because thet are in the middle of a game. IF someone were to walk up and distract them, it could break their focus on the game.

For me, 40k is 100% fun, so I would be anything but giving them the cold shoulder if a newbie were to walk over from pure interest in my tyranids or what not. I would only give him the cold shoulder if he were to

1. play Grey Knights
2. play necrons with scarab and death ray spam

If he were to be collecting anything else, (especially tyranids) then I would immidiately act like I've known him for years.

 

Aspergers really is the modern malaise of choice just now. It's entirely improbably that everyone who says they have Aspergers really do, some people are just dicks. If you consider that the rate of Aspergers is roughly 1:4000 people, and of those people you will have the full spectrum of severity. A lot of people seem to equate being a social cripple with having Aspergers so self-diagnose to have an excuse.

 

I have Asparagus , i can only control it be covering myself in Béchamel sauce

 

ive found that most people that wargame are awesome people, my current local included.

as this recent review of our club shows, by one Peter Hill:
On a serious note though, let me begin my long, rambling article:
"2011 At Powerfist Gaming"

At the start of this year, I knew next to nothing about 40k, or tabeltop gaming in general. I knew that Jack played, and I'd seen his 4th ed tyranid codex, thinking that they looked pretty cool, but genuinely couldn't see myself ever actually getting into the hobby.

I now find myself having just recently applied some detail to the carapace of a hormagaunt, and wondering when I'll have the money to get a couple of Trygons, inbetween reading Horus Heresy books, discussing the antics of Primarchs on dakka dakka, browsing comics about amusing WAAAARGH's and generally swimming in the giant, immersive gravy boat that is Warhammer 40K, attempting to drink in as much of it as I can.
It is important to note that this is partly due to the rich and immersive universe that GW has made... The models, the gameplay and the background/fluff are all appealing on their own merits, but as I said before, these things had never been enough to make me genuinely consider getting into it.
No, it was pretty much all the work of PowerfistGaming that has done this to me, and I would like to give thanks, and apropriate praise.
First, of course, much credit to Al and Jackson for putting in the effort to run the club, and provide us with the space needed to congregate in the numbers that we do. Their good work, even just turning up and keeping the place open, is exemplary, and I have never felt quite so welcomed by 2 complete strangers as when I first went to Powerfist.
But the rest of the community deserves just as much praise, and my gratitude goes out to you all.
For Master Traveller, who first led me through the club's golden gates. For Phil, and his local gaming store, which I have personally recommended as orders of magnitude greater than GW stores to everyone who expresses interest in the hobby to me.
I should probably stop calling names, or else this will just become a shout box for everyone I've encountered there, but I give thanks to the whole club, anyone I've ever played against, once, twice, or many times over, close victories and crushing one-sided defeats... Anyone who's ever given me advice on how best to run my army (Even when I'm too stubborn and foolish to listen), for the folks who've sold me models at cost, or even been given for free, for no reason at all, but to help a noob start his army.
In closing, I leave a statement of gratitude to the entire community at Powerfist Gaming, for being the most welcoming and helpful community I've ever been a part of. Thankyou for the past few months, and I look forward to writing another glowing review in 2012.