What's the most advanced power armor the Adeptus Astartes can wear? MK4 ?
The Final Frontier
Mk IV is the most advanced. A lot of the tech used in making them has been lost since the Heresy. Mk V and VI were pretty much patch jobs, and mk VII and VIII are just refinements of these inferior versions.
From lexi. This is a common thing that is brought up, one of these urban myths, and is often this quote when taken out of context - especially as is was produced back in the heady days of White Dwarf 129 originally.
Couldn't they just take apart a MK IV suit or improve it with new technology? Reverse engineering like when the Russians revered engineered our jets fighter designs during the Cold War?
What about Aegis Armor? Or is just specialized armor for confronting daemons?
What about Aegis Armor? Or is just specialized armor for confronting daemons?
I think were getting a bit off topic lol
Are the MK II and MK III more advanced then the MK V- MK VII?
Are the MK II and MK III more advanced then the MK V- MK VII?
Of the 2 I have to agree that the Mark VI would be more advanced since it has all the good points of the Mark IV with improved factors listed above.
I think the thing that settles it for me are the words "at the time". The Mark IV was the most advanced for a time but then the Mark VI came along and improved on it.
Since the Mark VIII is more advanced than the Mark VI I'd say the Mark VIII would be the most advanced.
I think the thing that settles it for me are the words "at the time". The Mark IV was the most advanced for a time but then the Mark VI came along and improved on it.
Since the Mark VIII is more advanced than the Mark VI I'd say the Mark VIII would be the most advanced.
Well from the HH FW books, we have MkII Cited as the most efficient armour at the time. We know the MkIII Was an over-taxed, high maintenance type due to it's up-armouring.
The MkIV is clearly cited in many sources as the most advanced type in general distribution at the time.
Likewise we know the MkV was a patchwork design; the hows whys and exact current chronology, we do not know, but basically, it's the on-hand or easy to make parts from Mk II, III and IV, with a head from the Termie project (split thread anyone?).
Calling Beakie armour MkVI should tell us it follows MkV in development, if not production, but this is not exact and it could easily be that the VI was developed before the MkV and the naming conventioned sorted out later. Likewise the MkV could well have been a contingency protocol which had been on hand since before the MkIV for all we know. We do not see very much of Heresy Armour in print, but likely they're overall of poor fit and finish, with some lucky Astartes finding some MkIII or MkIV Surprises in their rush-job replacement suit.
MkVI, is either a dog-standard suit, or an advancement or at least refinement of the technology of the MkIV.
Personally, I always got the sense that the standard-40K MkVII was a stopgap, de-enriched, moneky-model type intended for easy production in place of more advanced MkIV and VI types. The MkVIII seemed more like an improved MkVII, maybe even a direct, possibly modular upgrade. it seems to offer better protection to the Progenoids in apocryphal sources and it *looks* better protected, but it's really hard to say. My feeling is that it's better than a VII, but not so good as a IV.
So what about the odd marks? If we rule out consideration of Thunder armour, as we should because it is obviously less capable in all references I know of, then we only have some odd modifications and inferred transitionary and hybrid types left to consider.
Aegis and Artifacer armour are clearly modifications of other known patterns, though the Grey Knights seem to have their own kit all the way around and we can assume they get the best gear there is. I'd peg them in as wearing a suit as advanced as a IV, with VIIII refinements, but shy of MkIII Armoured protection overall, but that's just my theory.
We see some clearly transitory and hybrid IV-VI and VI-VIII models, but I haven't heard of any in the fluff. People sure build them though. By 40K, I'd expect the legions favouring the VI suits to be either making basically a MkVII suit with a Beakie head and a few odd refinements or maybe having access to advanced technology. In practice, I'd actually consider hybrid suits as MkVs in spirit, if not practice, but likely with better fit, finish and wear over time.
I think longevity of different types would play a role as well. I Look at the MkII, III and V as certainly mass-produced, short life-cycle (in 40K terms) items. Build as many as we can to support needs NOW! and replace them as we go with the tech we have in abundance. Any left in 40K are true relics, or essentially modded VIIs or earlier marks which have been essentially gutted and rebuilt as VIIs internally.
The IV, VI and possibly the VIII if you're an optimist (why are you playing 40K?) look from the fluff a lot more like long-haul legacy equipment built for the duration. Stuff that is meant to last a long time, with a high quality of fit and finish, which is not to say that other marks are ersatz works by a long shot, but that these are higher-quality suits. You're not going to just scrap a MkIV when it get's banged up; whereas if a Marine's MkII or III takes a pounding, you may as well scrap it for parts and give him a new one because it isn't built to be fixed like that and/or economic repairability is low. But by the time you're in the Heresy and much beyond, any suit is precious and you keep your patchwork MkV running as long as possible.
Post Heresy, i see production along two lines; the Holy crap we're drowning lines turn out MkVIIs like sausages and the Gucci line (Quality is remembered, long after price is forgotten) trickles out MkVIs to the best-connected legions, so long as it makes economic sense for them in the post-technological reality of 35-40K, until the VII is the standard suit because the mechanicus lost the data in their last HDD crash.
As things recover, the tech of the IV and VI may as well be lost, but you can start with the VII and improve it and get the MkVIII Errant armour, again more or less for the best set-up and connected legions, but a limited issue item. Demand will be lower, because by now, every issue item is a cultural relic of personal significance, even your comparitively primitive VII, which in balance, I take as inferior in terms of efficiency to a MkII. But again that's me trying to make everything in a chaotic canon all fit in a way that makes sense to me. Also by now, most MkIII suits have been cannibalized to keep MkII relic suits running, or have worn out themselves. Short of Someone like the Iron Hands or Imperial Fists making them, I'd peg MkIIIs as the rarest type in service in 40K, while new "effective MkVs" and hybrid suits should keep showing up out of necessity and as a result of bespoke modifications, mostly with MkIV, VI and VIII parts.
So what's left? Well the odd stuff.
We have the Space Wolves' "Wolf Helm" which you can look at as either proof that the real deal MkVI is something of a lost art and they want to recreate it, or a further improvement. Personally, I look at it as support for my theory of Sub-Stanard MkVI hybrids which are just VIIs under the skin.
We have the Chaos suits which are by now either warp-twisted relics (1000 Sons, Plauge Marines, ect), Hybrids (many, but especially Night Lords, so it seems from some novels), possibly a few instances of an exclusive pattern (which would seem to fit the HH take on the Alpha Legion's MO and makes sense of the Iron Warriors too) and I think a great deal of mass production from daemonic/eye of terror forge worlds (Which is where I peg in stuff that gets issued to folks like those 30,000 Khorne Berserkers (low-maintaince, replace when broken items).
It follows that the Iron Warriors make their own Armour, likely a hybrid/stabilized take on the MkIII, which deals with wear and tear better.
How good is any of it? The Warp does what it wants, so forget trying to rate the corrupted suits. The Night Lord and similar hybrids are going to vary individually based on what's been captured. There is some visual evidence of Emperor's children going for looks over substance (Shocker), so I'd rate their protection at least as inferior to even a MkVII or II, possibly in line with Thunder Armour, but efficiency as probably quite high, but again; it's going to be corrupted in many cases: so whatever.
The Alpha Legion's suits will likely be built as top-rate, probably the equal or superior to HH MkVI suits in stealth, sensors and efficiency and maintained in the field on a catch-as-catch can basis for those who are spread out in cells, sot hey come to rely on skill over steel as time goes on. The Iron Warriors will be building for mass numbers, but tempered by maximum protection; I'd expect their suits to sacrifice efficiency and perhaps longevity due to their normal MO keeping them close to base areas and massive stores ships. But I think that in The Long War, they'd come to value longevity over time and might produce suits of varying quality for troops esteemed differently; the crap for the new guys and the better quality, longer-lasting stuff for the guys *NOT* in the front rank of the forlorn hope.
Berserker-type mass produced suits? Cheap mass-produced junk. if it breaks, they make a slave fix it, they MAKE IT WORK, or their RAGE makes it work, at least long enough for them to contribute in some way to the blood whose origin Khorne cares for, not very much.
Anywho, just my opinions from a long time of reading fluff and trying to make it all make sense. Combined with a fair hunk of back ground in military equipment history.
The MkIV is clearly cited in many sources as the most advanced type in general distribution at the time.
Likewise we know the MkV was a patchwork design; the hows whys and exact current chronology, we do not know, but basically, it's the on-hand or easy to make parts from Mk II, III and IV, with a head from the Termie project (split thread anyone?).
Calling Beakie armour MkVI should tell us it follows MkV in development, if not production, but this is not exact and it could easily be that the VI was developed before the MkV and the naming conventioned sorted out later. Likewise the MkV could well have been a contingency protocol which had been on hand since before the MkIV for all we know. We do not see very much of Heresy Armour in print, but likely they're overall of poor fit and finish, with some lucky Astartes finding some MkIII or MkIV Surprises in their rush-job replacement suit.
MkVI, is either a dog-standard suit, or an advancement or at least refinement of the technology of the MkIV.
Personally, I always got the sense that the standard-40K MkVII was a stopgap, de-enriched, moneky-model type intended for easy production in place of more advanced MkIV and VI types. The MkVIII seemed more like an improved MkVII, maybe even a direct, possibly modular upgrade. it seems to offer better protection to the Progenoids in apocryphal sources and it *looks* better protected, but it's really hard to say. My feeling is that it's better than a VII, but not so good as a IV.
So what about the odd marks? If we rule out consideration of Thunder armour, as we should because it is obviously less capable in all references I know of, then we only have some odd modifications and inferred transitionary and hybrid types left to consider.
Aegis and Artifacer armour are clearly modifications of other known patterns, though the Grey Knights seem to have their own kit all the way around and we can assume they get the best gear there is. I'd peg them in as wearing a suit as advanced as a IV, with VIIII refinements, but shy of MkIII Armoured protection overall, but that's just my theory.
We see some clearly transitory and hybrid IV-VI and VI-VIII models, but I haven't heard of any in the fluff. People sure build them though. By 40K, I'd expect the legions favouring the VI suits to be either making basically a MkVII suit with a Beakie head and a few odd refinements or maybe having access to advanced technology. In practice, I'd actually consider hybrid suits as MkVs in spirit, if not practice, but likely with better fit, finish and wear over time.
I think longevity of different types would play a role as well. I Look at the MkII, III and V as certainly mass-produced, short life-cycle (in 40K terms) items. Build as many as we can to support needs NOW! and replace them as we go with the tech we have in abundance. Any left in 40K are true relics, or essentially modded VIIs or earlier marks which have been essentially gutted and rebuilt as VIIs internally.
The IV, VI and possibly the VIII if you're an optimist (why are you playing 40K?) look from the fluff a lot more like long-haul legacy equipment built for the duration. Stuff that is meant to last a long time, with a high quality of fit and finish, which is not to say that other marks are ersatz works by a long shot, but that these are higher-quality suits. You're not going to just scrap a MkIV when it get's banged up; whereas if a Marine's MkII or III takes a pounding, you may as well scrap it for parts and give him a new one because it isn't built to be fixed like that and/or economic repairability is low. But by the time you're in the Heresy and much beyond, any suit is precious and you keep your patchwork MkV running as long as possible.
Post Heresy, i see production along two lines; the Holy crap we're drowning lines turn out MkVIIs like sausages and the Gucci line (Quality is remembered, long after price is forgotten) trickles out MkVIs to the best-connected legions, so long as it makes economic sense for them in the post-technological reality of 35-40K, until the VII is the standard suit because the mechanicus lost the data in their last HDD crash.
As things recover, the tech of the IV and VI may as well be lost, but you can start with the VII and improve it and get the MkVIII Errant armour, again more or less for the best set-up and connected legions, but a limited issue item. Demand will be lower, because by now, every issue item is a cultural relic of personal significance, even your comparitively primitive VII, which in balance, I take as inferior in terms of efficiency to a MkII. But again that's me trying to make everything in a chaotic canon all fit in a way that makes sense to me. Also by now, most MkIII suits have been cannibalized to keep MkII relic suits running, or have worn out themselves. Short of Someone like the Iron Hands or Imperial Fists making them, I'd peg MkIIIs as the rarest type in service in 40K, while new "effective MkVs" and hybrid suits should keep showing up out of necessity and as a result of bespoke modifications, mostly with MkIV, VI and VIII parts.
So what's left? Well the odd stuff.
We have the Space Wolves' "Wolf Helm" which you can look at as either proof that the real deal MkVI is something of a lost art and they want to recreate it, or a further improvement. Personally, I look at it as support for my theory of Sub-Stanard MkVI hybrids which are just VIIs under the skin.
We have the Chaos suits which are by now either warp-twisted relics (1000 Sons, Plauge Marines, ect), Hybrids (many, but especially Night Lords, so it seems from some novels), possibly a few instances of an exclusive pattern (which would seem to fit the HH take on the Alpha Legion's MO and makes sense of the Iron Warriors too) and I think a great deal of mass production from daemonic/eye of terror forge worlds (Which is where I peg in stuff that gets issued to folks like those 30,000 Khorne Berserkers (low-maintaince, replace when broken items).
It follows that the Iron Warriors make their own Armour, likely a hybrid/stabilized take on the MkIII, which deals with wear and tear better.
How good is any of it? The Warp does what it wants, so forget trying to rate the corrupted suits. The Night Lord and similar hybrids are going to vary individually based on what's been captured. There is some visual evidence of Emperor's children going for looks over substance (Shocker), so I'd rate their protection at least as inferior to even a MkVII or II, possibly in line with Thunder Armour, but efficiency as probably quite high, but again; it's going to be corrupted in many cases: so whatever.
The Alpha Legion's suits will likely be built as top-rate, probably the equal or superior to HH MkVI suits in stealth, sensors and efficiency and maintained in the field on a catch-as-catch can basis for those who are spread out in cells, sot hey come to rely on skill over steel as time goes on. The Iron Warriors will be building for mass numbers, but tempered by maximum protection; I'd expect their suits to sacrifice efficiency and perhaps longevity due to their normal MO keeping them close to base areas and massive stores ships. But I think that in The Long War, they'd come to value longevity over time and might produce suits of varying quality for troops esteemed differently; the crap for the new guys and the better quality, longer-lasting stuff for the guys *NOT* in the front rank of the forlorn hope.
Berserker-type mass produced suits? Cheap mass-produced junk. if it breaks, they make a slave fix it, they MAKE IT WORK, or their RAGE makes it work, at least long enough for them to contribute in some way to the blood whose origin Khorne cares for, not very much.
Anywho, just my opinions from a long time of reading fluff and trying to make it all make sense. Combined with a fair hunk of back ground in military equipment history.
That's a whole lot of info there...wow
Still never answered my question. I guess there isn't a simple answer.
MK IV Artificer Armour has to the best of all
Still never answered my question. I guess there isn't a simple answer.
MK IV Artificer Armour has to the best of all
Artificer is a game term. An artificered MkVI is not going to be better than a MkIII, because the MkIII was designed for things such as ship-boarding, and other situations when heavier armour is preferential.
The MkVI was given to the Raven Guard, ostensibly as field testing. Considering that the nature of Raven Guard operations, it's possibly more to their specifications and need than something of iron armour.
Sorry to be pernickity, but stating that something is better is like saying that an iPhone is better than a Samsung, which is complete bollocks because Samsung have got supercomputers. Realise how stupid that argument is, and you'll see why it's "better".
A mark developed later is not necessarily better than one earlier, it's just that they have more specific tasks.
I mean, look at assault rifles. They were designed to combine the best parts of a machine gun, and a rifle. That is what happened with the Mark IV - essentially a one size fits all job. It might have the most advanced systems, and being able to offer the best protection in a variety of conditions, but it's not going to be better than one designed for a particular set of conditions.
"Artificer" armour does not "exist" in 40K. There is no such thing as an "artificered" suit. There is a suit of armour, which is worked on, and improved over time, to the specifications of those who need it for a particular job - similar to how a Raven Guard Mark VI has baffled powerbleeds, and noise filters, etc, while an Imperial fist Mark III has more layered protection. THAT is artificering, or else, in legion times, if it was simply a matter of "producing" artificer equipment, they would do - after all, look at the amount of land raiders and grav tanks and terminator armour they were able to field.
The MkVI was given to the Raven Guard, ostensibly as field testing. Considering that the nature of Raven Guard operations, it's possibly more to their specifications and need than something of iron armour.
Sorry to be pernickity, but stating that something is better is like saying that an iPhone is better than a Samsung, which is complete bollocks because Samsung have got supercomputers. Realise how stupid that argument is, and you'll see why it's "better".
A mark developed later is not necessarily better than one earlier, it's just that they have more specific tasks.
I mean, look at assault rifles. They were designed to combine the best parts of a machine gun, and a rifle. That is what happened with the Mark IV - essentially a one size fits all job. It might have the most advanced systems, and being able to offer the best protection in a variety of conditions, but it's not going to be better than one designed for a particular set of conditions.
"Artificer" armour does not "exist" in 40K. There is no such thing as an "artificered" suit. There is a suit of armour, which is worked on, and improved over time, to the specifications of those who need it for a particular job - similar to how a Raven Guard Mark VI has baffled powerbleeds, and noise filters, etc, while an Imperial fist Mark III has more layered protection. THAT is artificering, or else, in legion times, if it was simply a matter of "producing" artificer equipment, they would do - after all, look at the amount of land raiders and grav tanks and terminator armour they were able to field.
You do understand fluff =/= rules, hence the introduction of movie marines minidex in a 4th edition white dwarf issie to make them nearer the fluff?
You are talking of cars - a car might be more advanced, a bugatti compared to a land rover. A land rover is rugged but also prone to wear. Those its prone to wear are as a result of the greater stresses are often easier to change.
Power Armour loaded with ablative layers anyway.
You are talking of cars - a car might be more advanced, a bugatti compared to a land rover. A land rover is rugged but also prone to wear. Those its prone to wear are as a result of the greater stresses are often easier to change.
Power Armour loaded with ablative layers anyway.
There's never been an instance of artificer armour in a 40k novel? That actually surprises me.
After reading this article: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_Armour I am under impression that most advanced version is Mk VIII as it is the most improved model so far intended for mass production.
Can't think of one at least.
Compare mentions of artificer armour (note; seperate from artificed/artificer crafted) as opposed to those differentiations of different marks of power armour (rarely a mention of wearing power armour without noting that they're super special snowflake by wearing mkIII/mkIV/mkVI) or terminator armour.
One of the few mentions of AArmour is 5th edition C;SM, and that was in reference to the appearance of artificer armour - which looks exactly like power armour with a few more crafted bits on it - and from that appearance, it's unclear as to what exactly provides that extra 17% survivability - if it's simply a matter of adding on skulls, then why does not every space marine have that inscribed on?
In typical 1980's sci-fi steampunk fantasy style, everything of an earlier age is more potent, and is a lost art and cannot be recreated, yada yada. With the advent of 30K, that had to be expanded upon - where it's either master crafted by the mechanicum, or embellished with ciphers of strength and durability (if that's all it is, why aren't they all?) or of a wildly differing design from a zenith of humanities forgotten technical might - in which case, why did they not produce enough and how did the Emperor not come up with a way to equip them with this better armour.
Artificer Armour is mostly a "gameism" in Warhammer parlance, and regardless of whether it's artificer crafted or not, it's still just power armour in the eyes of many writers.
Ironically, from the quick shot of the models - Sevatar has among the most notable and OTT crafted armour available, and is only equipped with Power Armour - Kharn, meanwhile, is missing an entire limb of armour, and still has a 2+ Save. Meanwhile, his Primarch is sitting pretty in power armour.
I stand by it's a gamelogic that doesn't translate to the fluff - such as why a Primarch is in a battle containing 30 allied marines with 3 spartan tanks, and is facing up against a battle titan and 20 marines, instead of several thousand strong planetary assaults.
Compare mentions of artificer armour (note; seperate from artificed/artificer crafted) as opposed to those differentiations of different marks of power armour (rarely a mention of wearing power armour without noting that they're super special snowflake by wearing mkIII/mkIV/mkVI) or terminator armour.
One of the few mentions of AArmour is 5th edition C;SM, and that was in reference to the appearance of artificer armour - which looks exactly like power armour with a few more crafted bits on it - and from that appearance, it's unclear as to what exactly provides that extra 17% survivability - if it's simply a matter of adding on skulls, then why does not every space marine have that inscribed on?
In typical 1980's sci-fi steampunk fantasy style, everything of an earlier age is more potent, and is a lost art and cannot be recreated, yada yada. With the advent of 30K, that had to be expanded upon - where it's either master crafted by the mechanicum, or embellished with ciphers of strength and durability (if that's all it is, why aren't they all?) or of a wildly differing design from a zenith of humanities forgotten technical might - in which case, why did they not produce enough and how did the Emperor not come up with a way to equip them with this better armour.
Artificer Armour is mostly a "gameism" in Warhammer parlance, and regardless of whether it's artificer crafted or not, it's still just power armour in the eyes of many writers.
Ironically, from the quick shot of the models - Sevatar has among the most notable and OTT crafted armour available, and is only equipped with Power Armour - Kharn, meanwhile, is missing an entire limb of armour, and still has a 2+ Save. Meanwhile, his Primarch is sitting pretty in power armour.
I stand by it's a gamelogic that doesn't translate to the fluff - such as why a Primarch is in a battle containing 30 allied marines with 3 spartan tanks, and is facing up against a battle titan and 20 marines, instead of several thousand strong planetary assaults.
The Custodes armor in First Heretic sound oddly similar to artificer armor. At least in the sense that it's fancy, individually wrought, and superior to the mass-produced models:
"Each suit of battle armour was individually wrought for the Custodian granted the honour to wear it, and despite their finery, Custodes armour was a step beyond the mass-produced wargear used by the Astartes Legions."
Close enough?
"Each suit of battle armour was individually wrought for the Custodian granted the honour to wear it, and despite their finery, Custodes armour was a step beyond the mass-produced wargear used by the Astartes Legions."
Close enough?
Fluff =/= rules.
They made a free movie marines codex with a white dwarf to represent how marines are represented in the fluff, and even that fails. Raven Guard armour is all artificered in the sense that it's "not the normal" version, where it has improved sensors and counter detection technology.
Kharn has a 2+ Save despite missing an entire limb's worth of armour, while Sevatar has the most ornate armour of all the legion champion models in power armour produced to date, and only has a 3+ Save, while Kharn has more protection than his own Primarch.
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In fluff sections, rules can suck balls.
They made a free movie marines codex with a white dwarf to represent how marines are represented in the fluff, and even that fails. Raven Guard armour is all artificered in the sense that it's "not the normal" version, where it has improved sensors and counter detection technology.
Kharn has a 2+ Save despite missing an entire limb's worth of armour, while Sevatar has the most ornate armour of all the legion champion models in power armour produced to date, and only has a 3+ Save, while Kharn has more protection than his own Primarch.
In fluff sections, rules can suck balls.
Well frankly; pretty is as pretty does.
AFAIK; sensors, endurance (time in the field), comfort, ect mean nothing in the game. What does in protection. I get that there is some conflict between fluff and rules. I'm trying to draw from both for a good general answer.
Purity seals, scrowlwork, stylization, these things do nothing but make more work for your slaves/servitors to maintain.
Some stuff can be dual use. Some of the frills on Sevatar's suit could provide baffles, deflection or spaced armour (especially effective against bolt shells). Could. Clearly do not.
Going back to the OP; I would never call any kind of custom suit a "regular pattern"
Certainly Mk4 is very advanced. Mk6 *was* as well, whether it still is in 40k...no solid info, you already know what I think. Clearly by now Mk 2,3,5 and arguably 8 are not standard issue and so not "regular". Is Mk8 =/< Mk4 or 6? Inconclusive given current cannon data. As I said; you already know what i think.
Mk8 is likely the best 40K can provide en masse, sorta. But i'd expect GK Mk8ish armour to be superior to that. Is that a "regular pattern"? it is if you are a GK.
AFAIK; sensors, endurance (time in the field), comfort, ect mean nothing in the game. What does in protection. I get that there is some conflict between fluff and rules. I'm trying to draw from both for a good general answer.
Purity seals, scrowlwork, stylization, these things do nothing but make more work for your slaves/servitors to maintain.
Some stuff can be dual use. Some of the frills on Sevatar's suit could provide baffles, deflection or spaced armour (especially effective against bolt shells). Could. Clearly do not.
Going back to the OP; I would never call any kind of custom suit a "regular pattern"
Certainly Mk4 is very advanced. Mk6 *was* as well, whether it still is in 40k...no solid info, you already know what I think. Clearly by now Mk 2,3,5 and arguably 8 are not standard issue and so not "regular". Is Mk8 =/< Mk4 or 6? Inconclusive given current cannon data. As I said; you already know what i think.
Mk8 is likely the best 40K can provide en masse, sorta. But i'd expect GK Mk8ish armour to be superior to that. Is that a "regular pattern"? it is if you are a GK.
@ Mauraderlegion
Hell I'm agreeing with you. I even added to your point with the superior craftmanship-thingy plus what you added with the sensory-thingy.
Plus I like a guy that strikes the balance between fluff and rules. From where I'm sitting only rather foolish guys dismiss the rules because it doesn't fit into their narrow view. Artificier Armour always was superior to powered armour, just as hardened powered armour was in Fallout 2 superior to powered armour.
And yeah this discussion has spiraled out towards the irregular patterns of Artificier Armour. The most advanced regular powered armour is as you say the mk VIII, and its stated to be the best as the IOM is advancing but at a snail-pace.
And you are right that powered armour for the "poorer" Space Marines chapters can be cobbled up bits and pieces everywhere. You have cover for that in fluff as well.
Hell I'm agreeing with you. I even added to your point with the superior craftmanship-thingy plus what you added with the sensory-thingy.
Plus I like a guy that strikes the balance between fluff and rules. From where I'm sitting only rather foolish guys dismiss the rules because it doesn't fit into their narrow view. Artificier Armour always was superior to powered armour, just as hardened powered armour was in Fallout 2 superior to powered armour.
And yeah this discussion has spiraled out towards the irregular patterns of Artificier Armour. The most advanced regular powered armour is as you say the mk VIII, and its stated to be the best as the IOM is advancing but at a snail-pace.
And you are right that powered armour for the "poorer" Space Marines chapters can be cobbled up bits and pieces everywhere. You have cover for that in fluff as well.
@Beaviz81
Yeah, you make a good point, we really are getting out of control here and straying from the OP.
This isn't Battletech. IA books are the best, most definitive stuff we get on the equipment of the 40K universe and even they vary widely from edition to edition. Anything they give us on stuff like Space marine powered armour is going to be totally in-universe, fluff-heavy, inconclusive and incomplete by design and very biased.
The best we can get is some doddering mechanicum adept raving on at length.
Unless FW or WD wants to put out an article of some munitorium archeological dig doing a canon version of the very discussion we're having, we're just folks having fun, trying to figure out what makes sense given the two transitory sources we have; rules and fluff. Just makes sense to put those together with a little common sense whenever we can.
But I can't see us ever getting a Technical Readout; Astartes giving us a crunchy breakdown of the weights, measures and capabilities of each mark and variant of power armour. We're lucky FW gives us the detail on the tanks it does and even that is rarely consistent. But I'm not trying to thread-jack here into discussions of FW or GW or anything like that, just trying to put stuff in perspective.
Beaviz81, much obliged.
Yeah, you make a good point, we really are getting out of control here and straying from the OP.
This isn't Battletech. IA books are the best, most definitive stuff we get on the equipment of the 40K universe and even they vary widely from edition to edition. Anything they give us on stuff like Space marine powered armour is going to be totally in-universe, fluff-heavy, inconclusive and incomplete by design and very biased.
The best we can get is some doddering mechanicum adept raving on at length.
Unless FW or WD wants to put out an article of some munitorium archeological dig doing a canon version of the very discussion we're having, we're just folks having fun, trying to figure out what makes sense given the two transitory sources we have; rules and fluff. Just makes sense to put those together with a little common sense whenever we can.
But I can't see us ever getting a Technical Readout; Astartes giving us a crunchy breakdown of the weights, measures and capabilities of each mark and variant of power armour. We're lucky FW gives us the detail on the tanks it does and even that is rarely consistent. But I'm not trying to thread-jack here into discussions of FW or GW or anything like that, just trying to put stuff in perspective.
Beaviz81, much obliged.
Surprised this thread still going.
My thoughts on armor mks
MK 1-shit
MK II-vastly improved from MK I,advanced as V and up ?
MK III-front line suit of MK II, better protection then MK II and wears out quickly. Artificer MK III-more advanced then all marks other then MK IV?
MK IV-most advanced jack of all trades suit. Possibly the best as artificer Armour
MK V-shit, patch job, mass produced since of shortages during hersey
MK VI- specialized for special operations
MK VII- vastly improved MK V, standerd model for SM
MK VIII- slightly improved MK VII
When was Artificer Armour actually introduced in the codex?
What about Artificer Aegis Armor?
Could Terminator armor be artificer Terminator armor? Primarches wore them basically.
My thoughts on armor mks
MK 1-shit
MK II-vastly improved from MK I,advanced as V and up ?
MK III-front line suit of MK II, better protection then MK II and wears out quickly. Artificer MK III-more advanced then all marks other then MK IV?
MK IV-most advanced jack of all trades suit. Possibly the best as artificer Armour
MK V-shit, patch job, mass produced since of shortages during hersey
MK VI- specialized for special operations
MK VII- vastly improved MK V, standerd model for SM
MK VIII- slightly improved MK VII
When was Artificer Armour actually introduced in the codex?
What about Artificer Aegis Armor?
Could Terminator armor be artificer Terminator armor? Primarches wore them basically.
@Vaz,
I'm not trying to propose that rules = fluff or what have you. I was expressing surprise at your claim that the concept of Artificer Armour - that is, "lavish" suits of power armour that “afford the wearers protection that rivals even Terminator armour" - did not exist within the setting's fiction.
Either way, I think the Kharn-Sevatar comparison might be a bit off. After all, he is shown wearing full armour during the Great Crusade and the Heresy. Who knows what Khornate warp-influence makes his piecemeal armour that much more powerful in the 41st millennium, or whether that's just artistic license.
I'm not trying to propose that rules = fluff or what have you. I was expressing surprise at your claim that the concept of Artificer Armour - that is, "lavish" suits of power armour that “afford the wearers protection that rivals even Terminator armour" - did not exist within the setting's fiction.
Either way, I think the Kharn-Sevatar comparison might be a bit off. After all, he is shown wearing full armour during the Great Crusade and the Heresy. Who knows what Khornate warp-influence makes his piecemeal armour that much more powerful in the 41st millennium, or whether that's just artistic license.
gen.ahab,
Saying that Artificer Armour, as defined within the game, doesn't exist within the fiction is one thing. We can compare sources and figure out if this is the case or not.
Saying that Artificer Armour isn't "necessarily ... more advanced, or better, or anything" is simply inaccurate, though. Artificer Armour is, by definition, better. It is "... as far beyond power armour as power armour is beyond the carapace used by Space Marine Scouts ... Indeed, cunningly wrought damage control mechanisms and superdense construction materials ensure that most suits of artificer armour offer a degree of protection rivalling that of Tactical Dreadnought armour."
If an author telling stories in this setting, which is based on a game, uses named concepts from said game, it then becomes very difficult (in my eyes, at least) to claim that this concept suddenly does something different than it does in the game. Using that logic, why not argue that bolt pistols have the same range as bolt guns, or that there is no meaningful difference in the damage dealt by flamers and heavy flamers?
Saying that Artificer Armour, as defined within the game, doesn't exist within the fiction is one thing. We can compare sources and figure out if this is the case or not.
Saying that Artificer Armour isn't "necessarily ... more advanced, or better, or anything" is simply inaccurate, though. Artificer Armour is, by definition, better. It is "... as far beyond power armour as power armour is beyond the carapace used by Space Marine Scouts ... Indeed, cunningly wrought damage control mechanisms and superdense construction materials ensure that most suits of artificer armour offer a degree of protection rivalling that of Tactical Dreadnought armour."
If an author telling stories in this setting, which is based on a game, uses named concepts from said game, it then becomes very difficult (in my eyes, at least) to claim that this concept suddenly does something different than it does in the game. Using that logic, why not argue that bolt pistols have the same range as bolt guns, or that there is no meaningful difference in the damage dealt by flamers and heavy flamers?
Essentially, yeah. I had a big thing made up, but then I managed to tap the corner of my screen and closed the browser. But yes, that's basically it.
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