After the new Aurelian Novella it depicts how much Lorgar changed post drop site massacre. To the point where his psyker power is able to prevent Horus from laying a hand on him or restraining him, as well as perceiving the daemon in Fulgrim when Magnus did not and Logar nearly killed daemon Fulgrim
Lux
why flame? I am being genuinely sincere in my questions. Have you read Aurellian? Even from the free chapter one excerpt it displays how much Lorgar had grown in psyker power.
To the point where he frosted the room and armors of his brother primarchs with merely his presence, and then proceeded to put the Daemon fulgrim into a constant near death state.
Additionally, when Horus attempted to restrain him Lorgar used his psyker powers to prevent that.
To the point where he frosted the room and armors of his brother primarchs with merely his presence, and then proceeded to put the Daemon fulgrim into a constant near death state.
Additionally, when Horus attempted to restrain him Lorgar used his psyker powers to prevent that.
It does seem that his exposure to the truth of the warp has, if not increased his power, it certainly has made him more willing to face people down. I've only read the extract in Hammer and Bolter, but even in that he really seems to have grown a pair. He attacks Fulgrim, and seems willing to take on all the rest of his brothers. He even calls Horus a fool, and is able to overpower him psychically.
He is even seemingly strong enough to worry Magnus, rattling him over the huge distance between them, and even threatening to make Horus regret it if he tried to read his mind a second time. "There is no longer any need to hold back. If we restrain ourselves we will lose this war." This seems to indicate that he was always this powerful, he just was afraid to cut loose with his power.
He is even seemingly strong enough to worry Magnus, rattling him over the huge distance between them, and even threatening to make Horus regret it if he tried to read his mind a second time. "There is no longer any need to hold back. If we restrain ourselves we will lose this war." This seems to indicate that he was always this powerful, he just was afraid to cut loose with his power.
It should also be noted when Magnus attempted to read his mind and enter his mind psychically, he then thrusts Magnus out and threatens him as you stated. To the point where Magnus was unable to do anything to Logar, and also as you stated he shut horus down when he attempted to overpower and restrain Logar.
The most powerful psyker of the Primarchs? No, that title still goes to Magnus. However, we know that all the Primarchs have psychic abilities of varying degrees, latent or not. I've read the first three chapters of Aurelian (its not even on pre-order yet Lux, how have you got a full copy?) and it seems to clearly suggest that Lorgar had stopped restraining himself in terms of his psychic abilities (as was the case throughout The First Heretic), I don't necessarily think it was as a result of his new dedication to Chaos, merely that he had always been capable of such things but he had chosen to restrain himself because he feared it.
I really don't think he's done anything worth getting banned over. So why ask? Every forum has its trolls. Hell, most of the people on this forum either humor him, ignore him, or, for some reason, flame him.
Posting in the wrong section is a pretty stupid reason to get banned over, even if you do post in the wrong section repeatedly. Perhaps if you do it more than 15-20 times i'd get tired of it, but then again, i'm a tolerant person. Slow to annoy/piss of/whatever.
Posting in the wrong section is a pretty stupid reason to get banned over, even if you do post in the wrong section repeatedly. Perhaps if you do it more than 15-20 times i'd get tired of it, but then again, i'm a tolerant person. Slow to annoy/piss of/whatever.
Imo I think they took that direction with Lorgar because of everyone saying he acted like a pansy in The First Heretic.
No, it was the entire plan from the beginning. Lorgar was always a BAMF, just didn't have the drive.
How was it the plan from the beginning?
Lorgar was always portrayed as the son who did not want to follow the path set out for him, the wayward son, the hippy who doesn't want to follow in his war-mongering father's footsteps-preferring to win over the hearts and minds of isolated worlds as opposed to forcing them into the Imperium with brute force.
Then all of a sudden ADB shows up and pulls a 180 with his persona.
I'm of the opinion that it was clearly to dismiss the former depictions of a weak Lorgar and to appease the fans.
It wouldn't make sense either for the Word Bearers, one of the most vicious of the traitor legions, to of had a sissy Primarch.
Lorgar was always portrayed as the son who did not want to follow the path set out for him, the wayward son, the hippy who doesn't want to follow in his war-mongering father's footsteps-preferring to win over the hearts and minds of isolated worlds as opposed to forcing them into the Imperium with brute force.
Then all of a sudden ADB shows up and pulls a 180 with his persona.
I'm of the opinion that it was clearly to dismiss the former depictions of a weak Lorgar and to appease the fans.
It wouldn't make sense either for the Word Bearers, one of the most vicious of the traitor legions, to of had a sissy Primarch.
He was the son who was openly rebuked by his father, and shamed in from of his legion. The son whose faith was shattered along with his entire sense of purpose and self. The chaos gods came in and gave him what he wanted, a god, or gods to be more specific, and the power to achieve retribution. Really, Lorgar did pull a 180. He always did. Even in the old fluff he went from being one of the most loyal sons to a living avatar of chaos and the mortal (kinda) representative of the gods in the material realm. It stands to reason he would have completely changed in many aspects of himself.
EDIT: But this is way off topic, well.... no way off, but off. If you want to argue it, or whatever, best to set up another thread.... or, better yet, email Aaron and ask him.
EDIT: But this is way off topic, well.... no way off, but off. If you want to argue it, or whatever, best to set up another thread.... or, better yet, email Aaron and ask him.
id like to think that because lorgar is the original chaos worshipper out of the primarchs and the sole reason for the HH happening that he has a far greater awareness of the vagueries of the warp and a close understanding of the chaos god that either through granted powers or just total self-enlightenment he has become what the rest of the daemon-primarch are not and that is the favoured son of chaos undivided.
for me lorgar was always destined to follow chaos and seeing as he embraced chaos so fully and in a manner that the chaos gods really appreciated (if thats possible) he is that next step up from the rest of them. he in essence is the one true follower of chaos compared to his brothers who turned traitor for pretty much selfish reasons.
lorgar saw chaos for what it was and believed, surely that is the key factor in why he had become so powerful.
for me lorgar was always destined to follow chaos and seeing as he embraced chaos so fully and in a manner that the chaos gods really appreciated (if thats possible) he is that next step up from the rest of them. he in essence is the one true follower of chaos compared to his brothers who turned traitor for pretty much selfish reasons.
lorgar saw chaos for what it was and believed, surely that is the key factor in why he had become so powerful.
I loved the First Heretic. It was one of the best of the HH, imo. You have character development, believable drama, and a sickeningly twisted plot.
Isn't it odd that it seems the Emperor intentionally pushed Lorgar over the edge? Hmmmm... Could it be that the Emperor actually instigated the Horus Heresy himself?
Isn't it odd that it seems the Emperor intentionally pushed Lorgar over the edge? Hmmmm... Could it be that the Emperor actually instigated the Horus Heresy himself?
The notion that the Emperor is just human irritates me for some reason.
I suppose it is undeniable simply because of the fact that if he wasn't, he wouldn't have stuck with humanity for so long.
I used to have a theory that he was the last of the Old Ones and simply taking on the guise of a human lol.
I suppose it is undeniable simply because of the fact that if he wasn't, he wouldn't have stuck with humanity for so long.
I used to have a theory that he was the last of the Old Ones and simply taking on the guise of a human lol.
I know what you mean. The Emperor secretly being a frog man would be amusing. 
That said, I really enjoyed the depiction of him in The Last Church, where the old priest perceives violence and strong emotions beneath The Emperor's calm, rational exterior. It made a character that can suffer from 'bland superman syndrome' more believable.
That said, I really enjoyed the depiction of him in The Last Church, where the old priest perceives violence and strong emotions beneath The Emperor's calm, rational exterior. It made a character that can suffer from 'bland superman syndrome' more believable.
Yeah that story was beautiful in every way and perhaps the only exception to my preference for no one writing a piece centered on the Emperor again.
You just can't mess with his image and it would take so little to belittle his reputation.
You just can't mess with his image and it would take so little to belittle his reputation.
If you look at the Emperor's sons I think you can get a good glimpse of who he was behind the scenes. All 20 of them, with the obivious exclusion of the two he had to make not exist anymore. Lorgar and the Haunter. Bloodthirsty and thriving on fear.Gulliman and Dorn. Pride and Nobility. The Lion and Russ. Paranoia and Unflinching loyalty. You can keep it going but the 350,000 or so pyskers that make up the Emperor maybe should have been screened better. That many people coming together with warp exposure, your bound to have a couple with social disorders.
The Emperor isn't a human in my opinion as much as he is an avatar. His conciousness has never been a singular entity but a collective of all the dead pyskers akin to the Hive Mind. Certain factors could contribute to his decision making that may come from corners of his mind he may not even be aware of. Think about it. If you read the Draco series, to manage the Imperium better he split himself down into 7. Why?
He says it was to better manage the Imperium but I think it's the other psykers conciousness trying to break free. His opinions and decisions don't make sense to anyone save the Sigillite ( maybe) and himself. He says he lives in a constant state of agony and I think the reason for this is without his physical body to house it, his conciousness is tearing itself apart.
I think it would be awesome if, years from now, that we find bL making a origin of the Emperor book like the did with Sigmar. Wouldn't it be even more interesting to learn that Khorne and Tzeentch had sent agents into the meeting where the pyskers decided to kill themselves and form the entity that would become the Emperor. That would account for out of all his characteristics, the one that unsettles people around him the most was his violent and bloodthirst and his proclivity to keep secrets and plot.
The Emperor isn't a human in my opinion as much as he is an avatar. His conciousness has never been a singular entity but a collective of all the dead pyskers akin to the Hive Mind. Certain factors could contribute to his decision making that may come from corners of his mind he may not even be aware of. Think about it. If you read the Draco series, to manage the Imperium better he split himself down into 7. Why?
He says it was to better manage the Imperium but I think it's the other psykers conciousness trying to break free. His opinions and decisions don't make sense to anyone save the Sigillite ( maybe) and himself. He says he lives in a constant state of agony and I think the reason for this is without his physical body to house it, his conciousness is tearing itself apart.
I think it would be awesome if, years from now, that we find bL making a origin of the Emperor book like the did with Sigmar. Wouldn't it be even more interesting to learn that Khorne and Tzeentch had sent agents into the meeting where the pyskers decided to kill themselves and form the entity that would become the Emperor. That would account for out of all his characteristics, the one that unsettles people around him the most was his violent and bloodthirst and his proclivity to keep secrets and plot.
Isn't the "Psykers killing themselves to form a single being" thing only a theory though? It isn't actually a given right?
I pretty much thought it was a given. Don't quote me on that though. I don't know EVERYTHING about 40k obviously. When you look up the Emperor that pretty much what comes up. Born something BC in modern day Anatolia. Thousands and Thousands of shamans and other beings not yet known as psykers coming to the conclusion it would be a wrap for humanity if they didn't do something and thought to combine their powers. Maybe they saw what would become the gods or the actual entities and understood they were a vast collection of negative energy. So then maybe by doing the same thing with ( what they hoped was) good energy they could have something that would help humankind. Like I said though this is more my take on it.
Unfortunately Deadeye776, the fluff your thinking of and referencing is no longer considered canon. Originally it was confirmed/strongly hinted that the Emperor was born not of mortal means, but is the creation of a cabal of shamans/early psykers who sacrificed themselves to create the being known as the Emperor.
GW nixed that from canon; I believe around the time they put an end to the Sensei and Illuminati fluff.
While those things no longer exist as confirmed fluff, theres no reason that we cannot treat them as baseless rumours within the 40k universe. (Last I recall, the Illuminati are a hunted group of radicals.)
GW nixed that from canon; I believe around the time they put an end to the Sensei and Illuminati fluff.
While those things no longer exist as confirmed fluff, theres no reason that we cannot treat them as baseless rumours within the 40k universe. (Last I recall, the Illuminati are a hunted group of radicals.)
Sooooooo okay then. What's the official word on how he came to be? I actually think this is kind of shitty. I always thought his origins in the initial fluff was kind of bad ass.Now he's just an ultra powerful omega class psyker? Do they give another explanation for his level of power?
Sorry for the thread necro, but since the previous conversation never reached a conclusion, I thought to offer my two cents.
Regarding canon: According to Dan Abnett, Gav Thorpe, our own ADB, and others, Warhammer 40K doesn't have anything resembling hard canon. There are some broad common elements, sure, but each author is free to cherry-pick elements they like and discard those they don't. That's how we can end up with backflipping terminators with multilazorz and Slaanesh-worshiping pedophile Farseers, although since then BL has tried to keep such egregious flights of fancy to a minimum. The Horus Heresy series in particular is supposed to emphasize consistency and continuity, as it is a team effort in many ways.
Regarding the Emperor's origins: Whether you prefer studio material over Black Library or vice versa, at no point has the original shaman story been retconned or explicitly stated to be invalid, and no alternative storylines have been proposed. Therefore, in as far as there is canon in 40K, the shaman storyline remains "official".
The same can be said about the Illuminati (although I don't like to think about those books; despite the torturous writing style, the first two managed to set up an interesting story, but the third book wasted all that potential on stupid irrelevant bullshit).
Regarding Lorgar in The First Heretic: The perception of Lorgar as weak is not just the whining of a few fans, but a sentiment I often see expressed in various forum discussions. He comes across as a religious nutjob desperate for something, anything, greater than himself to believe in and give his life meaning. After his ludicrously over-the-top chastising by the Emperor, he lets himself be manipulated by a corrupt old man and a power-hungry Astartes. Kor Phaeron and Erebus seem to mastermind the whole Heresy, while Lorgar is off seeking his answers. And even when they arrive at the Eye, he sends his Captain to get those answers in his stead. This sentiment extends to the characters in the book, as well, with most of the Primarchs except Magnus seemingly holding Lorgar in contempt, and I'm pretty sure at one point the Custodes assigned to babysit him refer to Lorgar as "this weakling Primarch". If in the new novel Lorgar has finally decided to "nut up", then ipso facto he was not "nutting up" before, i.e. being somewhat of a pansy.
Speaking of the new novel, I have yet to read it, since the only way to acquire it right now is to shell out $80+ on eBay. BL seems to be determined to keep people from reading this book. Anyway, I'm glad Lorgar has toughened up, but I have to raise an eyebrow at some of the feats described in this thread, as they are approaching Wardian proportions. I can buy it if at this point Lorgar has fully committed to the Chaos Gods and is well on his way to Daemon Princehood, but if such prowess is merely the result of him "nutting up", then it feels very much as gratuitous over-compensation. I mean, out-psykering Magnus? Really?
Regarding canon: According to Dan Abnett, Gav Thorpe, our own ADB, and others, Warhammer 40K doesn't have anything resembling hard canon. There are some broad common elements, sure, but each author is free to cherry-pick elements they like and discard those they don't. That's how we can end up with backflipping terminators with multilazorz and Slaanesh-worshiping pedophile Farseers, although since then BL has tried to keep such egregious flights of fancy to a minimum. The Horus Heresy series in particular is supposed to emphasize consistency and continuity, as it is a team effort in many ways.
Regarding the Emperor's origins: Whether you prefer studio material over Black Library or vice versa, at no point has the original shaman story been retconned or explicitly stated to be invalid, and no alternative storylines have been proposed. Therefore, in as far as there is canon in 40K, the shaman storyline remains "official".
The same can be said about the Illuminati (although I don't like to think about those books; despite the torturous writing style, the first two managed to set up an interesting story, but the third book wasted all that potential on stupid irrelevant bullshit).
Regarding Lorgar in The First Heretic: The perception of Lorgar as weak is not just the whining of a few fans, but a sentiment I often see expressed in various forum discussions. He comes across as a religious nutjob desperate for something, anything, greater than himself to believe in and give his life meaning. After his ludicrously over-the-top chastising by the Emperor, he lets himself be manipulated by a corrupt old man and a power-hungry Astartes. Kor Phaeron and Erebus seem to mastermind the whole Heresy, while Lorgar is off seeking his answers. And even when they arrive at the Eye, he sends his Captain to get those answers in his stead. This sentiment extends to the characters in the book, as well, with most of the Primarchs except Magnus seemingly holding Lorgar in contempt, and I'm pretty sure at one point the Custodes assigned to babysit him refer to Lorgar as "this weakling Primarch". If in the new novel Lorgar has finally decided to "nut up", then ipso facto he was not "nutting up" before, i.e. being somewhat of a pansy.
Speaking of the new novel, I have yet to read it, since the only way to acquire it right now is to shell out $80+ on eBay. BL seems to be determined to keep people from reading this book. Anyway, I'm glad Lorgar has toughened up, but I have to raise an eyebrow at some of the feats described in this thread, as they are approaching Wardian proportions. I can buy it if at this point Lorgar has fully committed to the Chaos Gods and is well on his way to Daemon Princehood, but if such prowess is merely the result of him "nutting up", then it feels very much as gratuitous over-compensation. I mean, out-psykering Magnus? Really?
I dont have my copy of Aurelian with me but everyone seems to forget when horus sends all his brothers away to talk to lorgar alone magnus tells him it takes alot of energy to have the psychic conference from across the galaxy. So the fact that lorgar was able to I guess you could say nip at magnus is simple. Its not hard to knock down a guy whos running a marathon when you haven't done anything yourself. And he didnt "restrain" horus he just kind of checked him and showed him now is not a good time to play his diplomatic games. After all thats what horus was chosen for in the first place.
Sanguinius cried in Horus Rising after losing his men on Murder. Horus himself also cried at one point in Horus Rising or False Gods, I think.
As for Vulkan crying or not, you don't know that, he may very well have done, might do in Vulkan Lives.
As for Vulkan crying or not, you don't know that, he may very well have done, might do in Vulkan Lives.
Angron cried on Nuceria after they found the bones of his brother and sister gladiators. Corax cried on Isstvan V after he used his cloaking ability to sneak back to the site of the drop site massacre.
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