In order of power, I would say Its probably something like this

Emperor of Mankind (Even after the HH)
The Chaos Gods (In whatever order)
The Mighiest Eldar Farseers (Eldrad etc)
Magnus the Red
Malcador (But he's dead so it doesn't realy matter)
Tigurius
Ahriman
Mephiston

From here it realy breaks up IMO.

There is no solid fact to base this on, just fluff, and sinse GW isn't keen on keeping such a list, its unlikely we'll ever get a master list.

 

interesting...it's rather odd that human shamans could pour their essence into the emperor, thereby creating a god-like being, and the Eldar never decided to do something similar...heck why doesn't the Imperium round up a couple thousand psykers and create get them to turn themselves into another emperor?

 

Maybe that kind of ritual is unknown to them, ancient lost knowledge.

The Emperor did it tens of thousands of years ago, perhaps no one else knows how.

 

Despite what may be in codices, and skipping over the Chaos Gods, I think its something like this.

God-Emperor of Mankind
Magnus the Red, Daemon Primarch of Tzeentch
-Insert other psychic primarchs here, but Magnus is the one most famed for his power-
Alpha-plus rogue psykers
Ahriman
Eldrad + various Eldar
Typhus
Tigurius / Mephiston / Ezekiel
Inquisitors + sanctioned psykers thereof

 

Wate sort of powers woud the Emporer have.

 

Every sort. He can predict the future, blast fools to ash with psychic force, read minds, pulp brains, create primarchs, banish daemons, guide humanity through the warp, obliterate souls, and generally be awesome, etc.

 

Sorry, Eldrad beats the snot out of every human psyker apart from the Emperor.

Ranking him below Magnus the Red is an unfortunate mistake, ranking him below Ahriman is amusing and ranking him below rogue psykers is frankly insulting. Magnus couldn't alter his own fate, never mind that of his entire race.

Eldrad *caused* Armageddon, defeated the second rise of the Necrons, and single-handedly defeated Abbadon's Blackstone Fortress above the planet Cadia, and by extension saving the entire system and possibly the galaxy from the 13th Black Crusade.

He can see not only the future of the Eldar race, Humanity and Dante's pet cat "Tiddles", he can manipulate your destiny so that your skull rests more comfortably underneath his boot when he strides across the bodies of an Imperial Army he annihilated that afternoon.

@ Monty: "it's rather odd that human shamans could pour their essence into the emperor, thereby creating a god-like being, and the Eldar never decided to do something similar..."

You ever heard of Slaanesh? You ever wonder where s/he came from? Right. :laugh:

 

You ever heard of Slaanesh? You ever wonder where s/he came from? Right. :laugh:

yes, humans got a god-like entity to protect them against the horrors of the universe, and the Eldar got.........Slaanesh

and all this talk about how powerful rogue alpha plus psykers are, wouldn't all the rogue alpha plus psykers be slaves of chaos, nothing but conduits with no free will?

 

I think Eldrad would only rank below the Emperor, considering how long he was around and the profound effect he has had on the whole galaxy. Of the humans, it is well established fluff that Malcador was second in strength only to the Emperor, quite a ways ahead of Magnus.

Also, people are mentioning Tigurius and Mephiston, but if you want to talk about Librarians, Njal Stormcaller looks even more powerful than either. Even in 2nd Ed he was one of the most powerful characters in the game.

This opens up the whole debate about the classes of psyker. In some of the BL novels, particularly the Eisenstein novels they talk about rogue alpha class psykers who are way more powerful than even the strongest librarian or astropath, and laid waste to whole systems, such as the Apex twins. I know someone on another site, the Conclave I think, came to a very logical conclusion that the most powerful trained Imperial psyker was only a gamma or delta class, as anything more powerful was simply uncontrollable, and too open to corruption by the warp.

 

The strongest HUMAN psyker is gamma or delta. Space marines, primarchs, and certain exceptional individuals (malcador, emperor) are higher. Alpha-Plus rogue psykers have more raw force than even eldrad...when did eldrad psychically obliterate a battle-titan all on his lonesome, as alpha-plus psykers are described as doing? I don't recall the quote but I think its in the apocalypse book or somewhere and says they can destroy a planet with as much effort as snapping their fingers. And again, I never read eldrad as being a massively potent psyker in terms of sheer force, but in subtlety and skill. He can read the strands of fate better than even, perhaps, the emperor could, but I think that in a straight up psychic duel of power to power he would lose to ahriman or an alpha plus. Ahriman, btw, strikes me as lower than an alpha plus in pure strength but stronger again in cunning and knowledge and experience. Eldrad wins on those, but not on power.
And I'm unaware of Njal's fluff so forgive me for exlcuding him. Mephiston released all his psychic potential through conquering the black rage and so is very powerful and mentally strong. Tigurius survived contacting the hive mind and retained his sanity. Ezekiel, in addition to pwning a warboss on his own, can read minds perfectly.

 

there are only four alpha grade psykers confirmed. and they are
1. The Emperor
2. Magnus the red
3. The alpha twins
4. Ahriman
All the others are beta grade at best









whats the difference between huron and guilliman?... Huron admits hes a tyrant

 

i would have to say magnus is more poweful than malcador since the original position of sitting on the golden throne was to be for magnus. when malcador did it he was drained into a dry husk and died.

my only argument to Khorne's Fist is that while it does seem logical-ish (the whole delta class being the highest a trained Imperial can become) towards the mid/end of Hereticus Eisenhorn said Ravenor started as a delta class psyker back when he was an apprentice but by that point in the book he was definitely much more powerful than a delta class.

 

There's a lot about the nature of psykers that is unclear. What exactly are Dark Eldar Psykers like, where do the old ones fall into this and does the Hive Mind qualify in the semantics of the question? Does the nature of the Emperor as a psyker parallel the Chaos gods enough to disqualify them. I believe that the Emperor is more powerful than anyone of them and even rivals them combined.

 

Honestly, most of these debates can be rebutted by reading the various codexes.

For any player who owns both the CSM and SM Codexes, its interesting to see the differing perspectives. Bot Codexes tell the tale of the Horus Heresy, but tell it very differently.

The CSM codex paints Horus as being a rivel to the Emperor in every way, and with his gifts from the Chaos Gods he was the Emperor's better. They describe the Emperor as having made many mistakes and besting Horus only by chance of Horus hesitating and the Emperor taking advantage of the window of opportunity.

In the SM Codex, it tells the stryo differently. It makes it very clear that the Emperor was in every way superior to Horus (at his peak, and while possessed of all for Chaos Gods). There is a passage that describes the momment when the Emperor defeated Horus, I can't quote becouse my codex isn't handy atm, but it said something like - "The Emperor gathered all his might and obliterated Horus from the mortal plane, all for chaos gods recoiled in terror and fled their mortal pawn for fear of dying themselves".

That's a strong statement, and says a lot about both sides.

Obviously the codexes are meant to tell two sides of the same story, and while one may be more 'correct' than the other, I am disinclined to beleive either one.

However, what BOTH codexes make very clear, is that the Chaos Gods... collectively, feared not just the Emperor, but his clone sons and what they were capable of.

I would definately rank all for Chaos Gods as below the Emperor in psychic might, collectively. I personally don't think its far fetched to say that they may rank below even the primarchs, but more likely, they are probably equal on many levels, and due to the primarchs weaknesses, thay are able to control or manipulate them.

Malcador is sort of a dead issue sinse he's dead, but he was the only person in the Imperium that the Emperor placed no restrictions upon for use of psychic powers (which he did not want Magnus using - also a telling statement).

The Eldar are definately a strong psychic force (Slaanesh and what not) and could definately produce rivals to any Imperial psyker, but the Eldar fluff is full of inconsistancies.

Eldrad is definately a powerful psyker, and could probably take even the most accomplished of current Imperial and Chaos psykers. But he is also the Eldar's premier Psyker.

I would imagine that Tigurius and Mephiston are next, and then Arhiman.

Tigurius, contacting the Hive mind means a lot, and in terms of his profile, I find it hard to beleive Tigurius would loose in a duel against Ahriman.

 

Power means nothing without control.

Magnus had no control. (See what happened to him?)

Ahriman had no control. (See what happened to the 1k Sons?)

Rogue Psykers have no control. (Being conduits, rather than self contained individuals)

Eldrad has control. (Of most of the galaxy )

Being able to destroy a planet at will is nothing compared to the power to alter the future so that an individual/race never existed. You would never have a "1v1 Psychic Duel" with Eldrad, because he would already have manipulated you into being possessed by Chaos/dying on another battlefield/being in another part of the galaxy. :biggrin:

 

Being able to destroy a planet at will is nothing compared to the power to alter the future so that an individual/race never existed. You would never have a "1v1 Psychic Duel" with Eldrad, because he would already have manipulated you into being possessed by Chaos/dying on another battlefield/being in another part of the galaxy. :biggrin:

Very good point. I think Eldrad wouldn't lower himself to take part in something as crude as a one on one battle of wills. If he sees you as a threat, Eldrad has already decided your fate centuries before you are born.

 

As Eldrad is dead does he count any more ?
Also yea he started the war of Armaggedon but is it really that hard to trick a ork into attacking a world ? Yes he can read the future very well and using it to his advantage but in sheer power he is very low down.
Also how do Magnus and Ahirman not have control, is it just because they fell to chaos.
As Chaos is the power of the psykers I would have to say that surely the Lords of Change are more powerful than most psykers.

 

well here is what an alpha plus psyker is for all those scratching their heads and wondering.

quoted from lexicanum:
"Uncontained, Alpha-Plus psykers represent an immediate and catastrophic threat to the Imperium. In theory, there is nothing that a trained Alpha-Plus psyker cannot accomplish through force of will; from snapping a Titan in half to summoning a legion of Greater Daemons. Representing such a great danger, the Inquisition usually executes Alpha-Plus psykers on sight unless the possibility for capture is nearly assured. Although extreme examples of even this classification The Emperor of Mankind and the Gods of Chaos might be concidered psykers of this magnitude."

so i think anyone of that rediculous raw power would be right up there. the only people close to that other than the mentioned above would be magnus and at a stretch ahriman. i don't think eldrad would be as i think his power is more in the real area's of cunning and manipulation and since this the most powerful psykers thread i don't think he cuts it.

 

quoted from lexicanum:
"there is nothing that a trained Alpha-Plus psyker cannot accomplish through force of will; from snapping a Titan in half to summoning a legion of Greater Daemons."

so if lexicanum is to be trusted, I guess the inquisition is somehow able to control and train alpha plus psykers?

Eldrad is not dead, his soul is currently struggling for control of the Blackstone Fortress with it's daemonic center. He still has active spirit stones, and thus can be interred in Wraithguard/Wraithlord. Eventually he'll win the battle of wills to control blackstone and be reclaimed by Ulthwés infinity circuit.

I like that version, but how do you reconcile the stuff that says his soul was torn to shreds by Slaanesh

 

to touch on the eldrad subject isnt he dead? and aren't ahriman and magnus still alive? i must say that eldrad was most likely the eldar's best farseer ever in my opinion, i dont know much about eldar history or the like so my bets in with him, but he's dead now. now for the order the emp is obviously at the top with Magnus not far behind him, magnus was already powerful but then his powers were boosted once he turned to tzeentch. next i think is a tie between eldrad and ahriman, eldrad like i said before is powerful but so is ahriman, to be able to do what he did to a whole legion and have the brass balls to hunt down as much knowledge as possible and even start hunting for the black library means he must be truly powerful, plus he's a chaos marine other then that malcador would be in there somewhere, most likely above eldrad and ahriman.

 

Eldrad is not dead, his soul is currently struggling for control of the Blackstone Fortress with it's daemonic center. He still has active spirit stones, and thus can be interred in Wraithguard/Wraithlord. Eventually he'll win the battle of wills to control blackstone and be reclaimed by Ulthwés infinity circuit.

Eldar don't die, they turn into circuit boards! :victory:

As a by-the-way, no-one we have ever heard of has faced Eldrad in a direct confrontation. This means that if anyone has managed it, they've lost. Any speculation about "Oh, he can see the future but can't fight worth a damn" has absolutely zero basis in fact. It's like saying "Oh, that nuke can't do very much, it's just a boring grey tube".

"Also yea he started the war of Armaggedon but is it really that hard to trick a ork into attacking a world ?"

Name anyone else who has ever managed it?

"Also how do Magnus and Ahirman not have control, is it just because they fell to chaos."

Well Magnus couldn't see his own future well enough to change it (he failed to stop the Horus Heresy, and became a demon prince, and was unable to save Prospero) and the only major spell Ahriman cast went catastrophically wrong, with totally unintended effects. Sounds a bit poor to me.

 

Where does it say that? Eldar codex says:

"Eldrad entered the Blackstone Fortress's psychic matrix and pitted his spirit against it's corrupted heart, in that instant his mortal body was gone, and all but a handful of his spirit stones became lifeless and dull... Q'sandria believes that the Farseer can survive his unending struggle within the heart of the Chaos fleet" p.51

Nothing about Slaanesh being involved at all. For Slaanesh to claim his soul ,every single one of his spirit stones would have to be destroyed. As it stands, a handful of them still function.

 

Where does it say that? Eldar codex says:
Nothing about Slaanesh being involved at all. For Slaanesh to claim his soul , every single one of his spirit stones would have to be destroyed. As it stands, a handful of them still function.

I was reading Lexicanum, the sources listed were

* Fulgrim by Graham McNeill, Black Library, 2007.
* Heroes and Villains of the 41st Millennium: Eldrad Ulthran, Farseer of Ulthwé by Phil Kelly, White Dwarf 286.
* Codex: Eldar (4th Edition), Codex: Eldar (3rd Edition)

During the Thirteenth Black Crusade, the Eldar of Ulthwé fought against the forces of Chaos, and Eldrad was at the forefront, knowing he would not live to see the end of the conflict. Eldrad attempted to retake a Blackstone Fortress, but the fortress was already occupied by Slaanesh, the Great Enemy. As Eldrad realised his folly, his soul was devoured, and the greatest Farseer of the Eldar was lost, however a handfull of waystones he had created still remained active causing some Eldar to believe that he's still alive but trapped in the warp.

I myself prefer what you cited

 

Fluffwise Ahriman should be the greatest non-primarch psyker among space marines. By profiles, he can turn tigurius into a spawn at 6" or just blast him into oblivion at 24" with bolts of change. In straight melee, he has better WS, Saves, Attacks, and Initiative. The main issue here, however, is that psyker's rules consistently fail to match up to fluff, in much the same way as space marines are not as super special epic awesome as they are described as being.

 

Also, another note back on topic - I have to revise my earlier list to this new one:

Emperor
The Chaos Gods
Malcador <---> Magnus (really up in the air here)
Eldrad (or equivilant in eldar farseers)
Grey Knight Terminators and the Grand Master
Tigurius <---> Mephiston <---> Ahriman (again, all hazy)


reason for my change is found on page 7 of the deamonhunters codex: paragraph 2 line 10. I'll sum it up by saying that the regular grey knights are ALL psykers and ae screened to include only the best. it also says that the best of them are the equal to the mighiest Librarians of the Adeptus Astartes (Tigurius, Mephiston, etc). It then goes on to say that among these grey knights there are those who excell and are made Terminators - obvious enough there... and from there they can be granted the rank of Grand Master, which it quotes as being "truly the greatest of the Emperor's servants" that statement seems to include even the Primarchs, as it is generally assumed that the Grey Knights are molded from the Emperor's own genetic material (geneseed).

 

I think Alot of people are forgetting that Magnus and Arhiman are very powerful Psykers but there biggest advantage comes from Sorcerery which is more potent than Psychic abilities, but more corruptable that is why the Emperor forbide it to Magnus who used it anyways. Ahriman Power is the same.

Anywho based on Some BL books ive read and and Codex Fluff I say the Baddest are listed as such.

Emperor
Chaos empowered Horus (the guy battled the Emperor on the Psyplane and the Big E had to commit to killing Horus to win, in much fluff it says Horus let his gaurd down and thats how the Emperor was able to Barely win)
Magnus the Red
Eldard
Ahriman
Malcador
Greater Deamons / Deamon Princes / Alpha Psykers
Farseers / Librarians / CSM Sorcerors

and everythin else falls short really. I think the Alpha Psykers are overated. If there so powerful then why do they get crusified by delta class Inquisitors, if they can snap a finger and blow up planets then how can any force stop them? You would have them place as bigger threats than Abbaddon. Yeah Right. They rate no higher than Powerful Deamon Princes (who conqure whole wolrds with ease in some fluff, like Daemon World from BL) and Lords of Change like Fate Weaver.

 

I'm slightly confused as to how the novel "Fulgrim" could be used as a source for what happened to Eldrad, considering that was many thousands of years before?

The passage you quoted seems more like the Chaos take on events, and the one I quoted is the Eldar point of view.

Magnus became a demon prince through himself being manipulated. He wasn't a powerful enough Seer to predict his own future, pierce the veil Tzeentch had laid in front of him, or convince the Emperor of Horus's betrayal until it was too late. I don't deny that he was/is powerful as a demon prince, I simply point out that he failed at every single one of his aspirations *as a Primarch*.

And not everything I said about Eldrad was to be taken literally, the "skull underneath his boot" thing was a joke... :grin:

Either way, I'd rank him at least equal to, or slightly above the psychic Primarchs. Ahriman really doesn't have a patch on him in terms of pure controlled psychic energy.

 

I don't know about other armies but in the Marines sense I'm pretty sure the list goes (speaking more along the lines of 30k as well, as in all time)

-Emperor
-Magnus
-Ahriman
-Sanguineous
-Mephiston
-Tigurius

I just say this from what I have read/seen (please...not the whip oh lords T.T )
Reasons: The Emp...o' course
Magnus was originally the one who was going to power the golden throne
Ahriman is said to have matched Magnus in power
Sanguineous (when alive...) was actually pretty psychicly potent allowing him to see his own death....and send a psychic scream throughout all time and space
Mephiston overcame the black rage and red thirst through a mighty will, giving him awesome power (as NOT listed in his codex T.T )
Tigurius is a close call with Mephiston, plus I haven't read much on him, just enough to know that he is pretty potent.
Last note: I came across two bits of lore that I found interesting. One said that a truly pure Inquisitor entered the black library, and another talks about a girl who completed Tzeench's maze. These two HAVE to be pretty boss if you ask me :shok:

 

I've read the Chaos Deamons Codex... and just like the other codecies, I think it tells us the same story we already know, in different words. its not a source of much new fluff, just a compilation if you will. I wil say, I did like it though, and it was a fun read.

Horus' Vision in the Horus Heresy Novels states that the Chaos Gods 'abducted' the Primarchs to get back at the Emperor who stole some of there power and who was using it to slowly destroy/weaken their Realm.

I wouldn't use this a source sinse the whole purpose of the visions sent to Horus were meant to deceive him. Not to say that the Chaos Gods wouldn't have used some truth aginst him, but its unlikely they would explaining anything on the cosmic scale to Horus, just so they could turn him against his father.

But in the 'current' environment in M41, tell me, who is it that is 'winning'? The 'current' state of affairs is arguably the most favourable outcome for Chaos

Gotta disagree. I think the whole point of having a never-ending struggle is exactly that; it never ends. No one side has the upper hand. If by military strategum you had to deduce who could muster the greatest numbers and conquer the most space, that is currently the Imperium. And I think the Orks and Nids stand a greater chance of victory by extention of the fact that they suffer absolutely nothing by loosing what few numbers the other races kill.

I've heard it written before that the Emperor "suffers" by I've never hears it written as a fact, it was dialogue, from one character to another, spoken. Its pretty clear, by the way the fluff is written, that in 40k saying someone suffers could mean something well above or beyond the concept of physical pain... I have no doubt that the Emperor "suffers" daily. If I were the ruler of the galaxy and my favorite son betrayed my in such a fashion, I would also be heartbroken, no matter great a warrior or Psyker I was. I would lock myself away and probably never want to face anyone ever again, that level of betrayel cuts deep. Its called the Great Betrayal becouse of this... not the every day variety of betrayal. To me... that's suffering.

No, The Emperor does not have a choice. He is forced to sit upon the Golden Throne. Not only that but on the Golden Throne he is sealing the Imperial Webway Gate and guiding the Astronomican.

I simply can't beleive that the Emperor could reach across the galaxy froom Terra, and restore a dead follower to life (a follower whose body as far more broken than his own as she was brutally hacked to peices by orks before she was recovered by her sisters). He not only restored her form but took her soul from the warp and gave it back to her... that can't be simple. You honestly think he can do that but can't repair his own body? Plus, I made another post in a different thread about how common bionics are in the 41st millenium. Techpreists replace people's brains and organs regularly and the lives of even regular humans span hunreds of years... couple the strength of this universe's sci-fi bionic medicine and the Emperor undaunted Psychic power and tell me he can't just will himself off that golden throne and back into the scene if he so chose.

the only reason he sits there is by choice... his heart is utterly broken and he will probably never get up. But not becouse he can't... there simply isn't anything to account for that.

 

Argh, double post wall of text crits for 13.6k damage!

Your eyes die.

Sorry :laugh: you may want to go back and re-edit that last one!

 

sorry, it was late and I was low on caffine

 

Discounting Ahriman

I know this is probably a moot point by now, but I think that people seem to dismiss Ahriman as one of the most potent of the 40K psykers. I seem to remember an article titled "Heroes and Villains of the 40K universe" in WD yonks ago that mentioned that the guardians of the black library, the very nexus of the Eldars knowledge and research on chaos, crap themselves at the thought of Ahriman gaining entry. I mean the Eldar aren't exactly the most powerful force in the universe anymore but surely if Ahriman wasn't really a threat, they would be able to take care of him quite handily?

 

I know this is probably a moot point by now, but I think that people seem to dismiss Ahriman as one of the most potent of the 40K psykers. I seem to remember an article titled "Heroes and Villains of the 40K universe" in WD yonks ago that mentioned that the guardians of the black library, the very nexus of the Eldars knowledge and research on chaos, crap themselves at the thought of Ahriman gaining entry. I mean the Eldar aren't exactly the most powerful force in the universe anymore but surely if Ahriman wasn't really a threat, they would be able to take care of him quite handily?

One problem with taking care of him; hes behind everyone else. He is a threat if he gets to the black library. So is everyone if they get all that knowlege.

also, I think we have skipped out the Hive Mind also. Once again it is not a "i can crush you in a second" psyker, it just controls millions upon millions of nids from the neighbouring galaxy. And please note, if the nids found the Eye of Terror, it will take an awful lot of pressure off the Imperium with all that Biomass pouring into it.....

Or maybe the Hive Mind is Tzeench!?!?!?:shok::shok::shok:

Oh yes and you say about the of the chaos gods and their deamons, realy, some of them are fragile. In Deus Encarmine, one large ship with many slave psykers was blown up above a planet and the legions of deamons attacked each other while the Dark Apostle tried to get his job done...:good:


And if the emporer is so insignificant to the Gods, why do they pile their blessings on Abbadon-om when they could be fighting each other?