Im not exactly sure what you are asking here. are you asking what units that you should not use or units that you dont want to play against?

 

its not use

 

Hawks aren't all that bad. Sure they are over priced a bit, but so is most of the codex nowadays. They do have a reasonably ranged gun, even though it is pretty weak. They also can be pretty handy with a haywire grenade.

Not great, just not "Plague" in my book.

 

I've actually read a really good guide for using a techamarine and a few servitors that will destroy lots of your opponents stuff.

 

Though for obvious reasons you're biased.

 

I'm gonna say sanguinary guard squads and death company sanguinary guard though useful get abused by everything on the board and you really have to choose you battles carefully

Death company are just a pain because all though yes they are incredibly powerful they are too easy for your opponent to lead

 

Techmarines arnt really bad , it dep on how you use them .
definatly not a " avoid like the plague unit"
Chaos spawn and the old necron pariahs are/were quite bad ( though thats my personal
view )

 

Not this crap again..... *sighs*

There are no bad units, only bad players.

Every unit has its use. If you think its a bad unit, its because your clueless about how to use it properly to its full potential.

Take Necron Scarabs. Argueable one of the most usefull units in the codex that litterally every competative player takes at least one squad of. Recently I've seen people whining about them being swarms and weak and dying before you can even get them into combat. If they were so crappy, why does every competative player take them? Answer.... You suck at playing them.

 

Not this crap again..... *sighs*

There are no bad units, only bad players.

That's wrong.

If as an example we had a Space Marine Tactical Squad that cost the usual points per model, had the same options, stats and so on and then there was a similar unit that cost significantly more points per model with only one small added skill or option that wasn't overly useful then it'd be a bad unit, there's no getting around that.

Every unit has its use. If you think its a bad unit, its because your clueless about how to use it properly to its full potential.

That's a pretty bold statement. So if someone considers a unit bad they're just not smart enough to "get it"? Do you find your ears pop when you get on that high horse?

---

When people say a unit is "bad" or "unusable" nobody actually means that there's no role that the unit can fulfill. Even Pyrovores, arguably the worst unit in the game have a tactical use (namely setting light and medium infantry on fire). What the important bit is is that when you consider the Pyrovore's point cost, the FOC slot it occupies (therefore making you unable to take a more useful unit in that slot) and intended niche you quickly come to realize that the Pyrovore has no place in any list that's intending to win games as a high priority. So yeah, in a vaccuum where you put on the blinders and ignore the realities of the tabletop then sure, the Pyrovore is a fine unit for killing infantry. It's just that in practice it doesn't actually provide an army with anything useful relative to the resources that it consumes and is therefore "useless".

 

OK, I pretty much agree with GrizBe, but think some units miss what was intended of them by the writers... but I think we could turn this thread from a rant into something more helpful.
I'm going to list a few units I think don't really have a place on the table and the reasons why I think that. Then if anyone can tell me why I'm wrong or how they could be useful it might be helpful. Similarly I'll try to point out how other peoples' 'useless' units could be used.

Pyrovore- its an expensive flamer with a single power weapon attack which needs a transport to get close enough to work... in an army that has loads of cheap large blast options and throws out masses of poisoned 4+, rending and/or MC attacks. Possibly a fun option, but not when I have to shell out that much to get the model.

Lictors- +1 to reserve rolls for a unit that starts in reserve (and doesn't give the bonus till it turns up)... bit rubbish really. I've used them as a distraction unit and homer for my harpy/snot pods but they really don't have the impact or the role they had in the old rules.

Beasts of Nurgle- they're plaguebearers... nice models in their own way but since they are basically twice the cost of PBs, twice as deadly with twice the wounds but can't score. Nice idea, not a bad unit, but why bother?



On the other hand I quite like techmarines. Shove him in a deathstar type land raider unit to make sure they get across the board or on a bike as part of a mechanised army (just hide him behind vehicles and move him to repair as needed). As a bonus you could just shove him in with 5 servitors as a cheap anti-tank unit (6 models all making an S8 attack is pretty nasty) and then you can bolster defenses to give your marines a 3+ cover save in an important area (such as around an objective).
... I can't really think of a reason why anyone wouldn't use a techmarine in larger games, and doubly so if you have scouts for objective holding.

 

The problem is you can't label something "must be avoided". This kills fluff armies, and means streamlining codexes back to the pamphlet 3rd ed era which was not fun at all. After all what's the point of writing a stats or fluff for something that would never be used?

Anyway, I'll take the spirit of this thread to be "things that aren't worth taking in your opinion"

For me it's chaos lords and raptors. I love them to death, run several lists with them in but by Jove spare yourselves the disappointment I have faced...

 

Anyway, I'll take the spirit of this thread to be "things that aren't worth taking in your opinion"

That was the intention

 

There are totally bad units, units which everyone forgets about. I will submit for your consideration Furies of Chaos. They cost the same as Flesh Hounds and are Fast Attack, They have 1 point less Weapon Skill and Initiative compared to Flesh Hounds, don't have Furious Charge (or Blessing of the Blood God). Now they are Jump Infantry compared to being Beasts so you think that might be worth it but no, both units are Close Combat only and with Hounds having Fleet they are actually faster at getting into combat that Furies.

Here's the best part, they are worse than Flesh Hounds in almost every way bar a few contrived circumstances and Flesh Hounds are so bad that they never make it into lists either. They are worse than a unit which is considered so bad it never gets used.

 

I'm stuck in a paradox. There are no bad units, only bad players?
The unit sucks, therefore it's bad.
A good player would never use that unit, only a bad player.
A bad player would put in crappy units, because he is bad.
The good player would have enough sense to never use the obvious crap units.
So who's fault is it? The bad unit or the player that used them?

 

I think you're beginning to see through the elitist arrogance of some posters.
Glad I'm not the only one.

So...
Ya, every unit has its use. Some players just have different playing styles, so they use some units more effectively than others.

 

Me thinks this particular paradox is caused by faulty reasoning rather then a true empirical conflict.

 

And here we go again with people not reading properly....

At no point did I claim that there weren't any unbalenced units, or overcosted units, or units where there are far better options to take... The point I'm making is that every unit has its uses and can be used and prove usefull if you know how to play with it.

I'm not a chaos player, and at my local store our chaos players are strictly marine legions and we have no deamon players, so I'm not up on spawns and furies, but I'd think they'd still have some use as cannon fodder or screening units, or as a usefull distraction while executing another part of your plan.

And with your gun analogy... Thing is, both people have still got guns, both can be used to kill people. One may fire more shots and need less maintainance, but the other is more accurate and can fire over a longer distance. Neither are useless, and if you know how to use them properly, both can be effective and better in some situations then others.

 

But some suituations are more likely to crop up than others, requiring more contrivance to get use out of them.

There are still "bad" units in that they are less useful, but there are no "bad" units in that no unit is entirely useless.

Is that what you are trying to say?

 

Bacause that would be less offensive and actally sounds reasonable. Also note that unless you have a understanding or copy of every codex your authority on claiming their are no useless or bad units goes in the crapper real fast. Its like saying their are no flying squirrels because of the 30 species of squirrels I have seen none of them fly. Half of the people you are arguing against do in fact have digital copies of every codex, and have looked through them. Now go find a competent CSM player and ask if he can find a use for a unit that you can't control that costs 30 points random movement, and no save at all at I3.

Just face the facts any blanket statement is inherently false because it assumes that you know every fact about the situation (As you by your own admission don't). Really if you don't want to come of sounding as delusional then limit your opinion to your experience. For instance in book X, Y, Z that I have played with multiple times I can't find a single unit that is worthless. Now when you start telling people about armies they have played with for 4+ years whether something in their army is usable you better well damn know what your talking about. Notice how I don't comment on the usefulness of armies like Tau ect. Know why because I have no idea if their are any usable or unusable units in said books.

Also you know why their are no spawn in your enemies CSM armies. I'll give you a hint it has nothing to due with legions as all legions are supposed to have them...well except thousand sons. In fact most CSM players don't even consider them a unit, but just a stat line if they want to use spawn to humiliate the enemy when they GoC a 200pt+ IC.

Also just thought I would point this out, but no unit over 15+ points a model should be used as cannon fodder. This isn't fantasy, if you take a unit in a MeQ army equivalent that you plan will do nothing but buy you time, or tie a unit for 1-2 turns then you are most likely not playing the game right. Since 33.33% of missions are KP cannon fodder quickly becomes a dumb idea. In fantasy or in armies that have low cost fearless units then yes cannon fodder is a good idea..ish, but once against blanket statements are dumb, some armies just don't have any units or room for models to be sacrificed without expecting something back, and in this edition mobs of weak infantry are useless since they can be wiped in a single round of CC (Kinda the reason gaunts became so much more powerful).

Not to brag, but my win rate is 80% locally, am I the best gamer in my area? God no, but I have shit kicked everything from DE venom spam to IG vet spam, and its all down to me knowing what the hell I am doing with my army. Skill is a usfull tool, but its only one of the 3 areas that dictate victory in 40k.

Luck-Army-Skill

Any one of these factors can win a game, but blindly handicapping one element will lead to failure against a opponent (Not sure how you could handicap luck, but meh)

 

Figure out an ideal situation for the ethereals or even the Space Pope, Aun'va. I'll use him as cannon fodder. Expensive cannon fodder that can make my army run off the board.

Or you could just say you over simplified something rather than trying to justify your idea that every unit regardless of cost/FOC slot/army/game can be considered useful. And just because I have something that can screen a shot, block a charge, or get one kill in does not make it useful. It has to be cost effective. If it's a blocker or a screen, it has to take enough firepower or hits to justify it's points. If it has a weapon, it better be able to get enough kills. So on and so forth.

 

Here we go again, X unit sucks! Y units sucks! Never take it! Why bother? Who writes this crap? Your stupid! No your stupid! ....

 

I thought rioting made it so we could acquire nice things at a very reasonable price, provided you flee with sufficient urgency.

 

Obviously no unit is useless, but many are hideously overpriced. The Pyrovore is basic math. It's worse than a Marine Scout's statline and wargear (15 points) with a heavy flamer (10) and Power weapon (15), with the instinctive behavior disadvantage. At the absolute most it should cost 40 points, and probably 35. Meaning it's overpriced by nearly 25%. That's a massive handicap in a game where every point matters for army building.

Every army has units that are competitively bad, but the Pyrovore stands out as an example of just plain bad math.

 

I'm thinking we have a case of "big fish small pond" coupled with an overactive sense of conceit.

 

Really there are no units that you avoid like the bubonic plague. Just avoid like that wilted piece of broccoli that you push to the side of your plate and forget exists...

 

If you ask me your all crazy, spawn are a very useful unit, that kit gives way to so many conversion oppurtunities for other awesome units, oh you guys meant game wise, yeah ther pretty damn worthless!

I have to go with the majority here, there are just some units that are pretty damn useless, I cannot say anything about pyrovores, because I don't play nids nor have I ever seen one used (must mean something). When I look at my daemon army I see the entry for furies and I do see a use in them, but Im sorry there are so many others units that really out weigh them such as, seekers and fiends.

If I want label any unit useless it would be a Slaanesh Herald without a mount, I can get more out of a herald of nurgle than I can out that and BoN are dumb IMO as well. if your going to use something big and intimidating as a sacrifical unit then you wanna go with something big and ugly like the great unclean one, the wound soaker of all wound soakers only second to his big cuzz Ku Gath and CSM havocs, they cost too much to field and you get way better shooting out of oblitz than you ever will out of a havoc unit.

 

Yraaaaaww unhun[/Chewbaca voice]

Crap, T/S I was doing the math wrong yes. they still do 0.96 compared to the Spawn doing 0.98. That's assuming the Spawn gets to the Guard, which it won't.

 

Units that I, a competitive player, avoid at all costs?

Orks.
Eldar, barring Dire Avengers, Fire Dragons, Wave Serpents, Falcons, Fire Prisms, Vypers, Eldrad, Yriel, Farseers, Autarchs, Warp Spiders, Storm Guardians.
Chaos Space Marines, barring Plague Marines, Kharn, Dreadnoughts, Rhinos, Obliterators, Predators, Havocs, Chosen, Raptors.
Calgar, Tigerius, Sicarius, Chapter Masters, SM Honour Guard, SM Vanguard, Thunderfire Cannons, SM Scout Squads without Telion, Chronus, SM Vindicators, Whirlwinds (any flavour,) Land Raiders (any and all, with I suppose the exception of Dark Angels in a 1500 or less game,) SM Devastators, SM Assault Marines, anything in the DA book that isn't Deathwing/Ravenwing/Tacticals/Ezekiel/Azrael/Land Raider Crusaders/Razorbacks/Rhinos/Predators/Venerable Dreadnoughts, Ironclad Dreadnoughts, Furioso Dreadnoughts inc Librarians, Death Company, Death Company Dreadnoughts, SM Terminator Squad (not Terminator Assault!) Eversor Assassins, Brotherhood Champions, GK Brother Captains, Mordrak and Ghost Knights, Lycheguard, Triarch Praetorians, Monoliths, Ethereals, Vespid, Hammerheads with Ion Cannons, Sniper Drones, Drone Squadrons, Kroot Ox, Lictors, Pyrovores, Parasite of Mortrex, Doom of Malan'Tai, Rippper Swarms, Necron Special Characters bar Orikan and Anrakyr, arguably Imotekh I grant, Mawlocs, Biovores, Pyrovores, Rough Riders, Ogyrns, Techpriest Enginseers, Basilisks, Lema Russ Vanquishers, Chenkov, Stealth Suits, ...

Fuck it, my arm hurts after that. Suffice it to say, we're about half-way there.

 

you wrote pyrovores twice, but they are really that bad i guess

 

pyrovore can be used to great effect if user right its just over shadowed by the need for zoans hive guard and the DoM. the the major avoid in my book is flayed ones

 

Everyone has their own bad units list, and then there are units that have a consensus on their general unplayability. Elessar is doing the latter which is fine.