Fellow Chaos Marines. All we hear is how the Imperium has banished us and smited us and hunted us down. Thats only half the story, but being in the limelight, its the loyalists that get their victorys recorded. I'd like to hear every Chaos victory you know of from codex's to the Black Libary. Where have we struck a successful blow?
Helsreach
12th Black Crusade 'The Gothic War'- Abaddon sets out to steal the Blackstone Fortresses and cause havoc, he succeeds.
Istaan V dropsite massacre has Salamanders, IHs, and Raven guard getting slaughtered by a whole bunch of Chaos marines as they try to land on the surface.
The latest Chaos Space Marines codex has a few examples aswell. The Alpha Legion's destruction of the Emperor's Swords Chapter and the Constaninus Iconoclasm as two examples.
Chaos don't need victories, with every battle comes death on both sides ==> Khorne stronger, for every backstab or manipulation ==> Tzeentch gets stronger etc. Alot of the imperiums vicrories are "empty ones" i.e. massive loss of life and resources. Chaos have had victories though off the top of my head....
Spoilers in black so highlight to read
"Angels of Darkness" consists of a squad of Dark Angels running around chasing their tales in pursuit of cypher and the fallen, in the end Fallen get away with gene seed and all the DA die.
"Fallen Angels" could be classed as a victory for chaos as they took posession of the siege guns.
As CotE pointed out "Lord of the Night" can be called a Chaos victory it's a victory over the eldar rather than Imperium as the imperium were being used as puppets and never really knew what was at stake but a win's a win.
At the moment the 13th black crusade is a stalemate but personally I think if you throw in Eldrad Ulthuan's death than chaos come away with a win.
The Daemon primarchs ascended after massive victories (or high deathtolls) over the imperium, I think Perturabo sacrificed a couple of hundred SM gene seed in order to get elevated.
Spoilers in black so highlight to read
"Angels of Darkness" consists of a squad of Dark Angels running around chasing their tales in pursuit of cypher and the fallen, in the end Fallen get away with gene seed and all the DA die.
"Fallen Angels" could be classed as a victory for chaos as they took posession of the siege guns.
As CotE pointed out "Lord of the Night" can be called a Chaos victory it's a victory over the eldar rather than Imperium as the imperium were being used as puppets and never really knew what was at stake but a win's a win.
At the moment the 13th black crusade is a stalemate but personally I think if you throw in Eldrad Ulthuan's death than chaos come away with a win.
The Daemon primarchs ascended after massive victories (or high deathtolls) over the imperium, I think Perturabo sacrificed a couple of hundred SM gene seed in order to get elevated.
Not to kill the buzz of the thread, but has anyone though of how few true CSM's would be at the current endpoint of the know 40k time line. I mean except the handful of new CSM made by fabius bile, or the incredibly few that are brought back to like (Thousand sons in space wolf series) their should really only be a few thousand CSM's in the entire know universe. Still it really should be the same way with loyalists to considering how many gene seeds would be lost every year from marines being disintegrated or smashed into past. Knowing this I always though the idea of CSM's being their own independent force as a bit silly. It would make a lot more sense if all marine stats where higher, and they where only available as HQ or elites in chaos or imperial armies.
Now that my rant is over, I guess the thousand sons in space wolf books are more or less successful considering they just seem to keep coming back from the dead. Hence every SW they ice in the series is one more enemy dead with no real loss on the Thousand Sons side.
Now that my rant is over, I guess the thousand sons in space wolf books are more or less successful considering they just seem to keep coming back from the dead. Hence every SW they ice in the series is one more enemy dead with no real loss on the Thousand Sons side.
Or of course the CSM from Marines/Chapters turned renegade and those humans recruited to become aspirants for the Legions. The Black Legion alone is vast in size much larger than any loyalist Chapter (yes including the mighty Black Templars), and most of the geneseed of loyalists is recovered- each marine has 2 geneseeds so numbers can be built up quickly in theory.
Who needs new troops the sons have an inexhaustable force of ghost warriors?
Chaos victory is iffy to make big fluff for, as like tyranids true victory would end 40K as we know it
Chaos victory is iffy to make big fluff for, as like tyranids true victory would end 40K as we know it
if you want a chaos force with a few marines as elites the siege of vraks book (part 1) has a complete renagades list which you can take an alpha legion squad as a elites choice (or more if you take the special character) and you have the renagade guardsmen building the mainstay of your list
cheers
edd
cheers
edd
What always annoyed me about happy endings was this:
We evil do-ers spend years at a time coming up with these evil plans and putting them into practice when some hero stumbles in and ruins it all without any preparation.
If they spent just half the time we did preparing to thwart us, I wouldn't mind, but they just wonder in foil all our work and leave without as much as a "well done for trying a new approach to galactic conquest".
I'm the champion of Chaos based rants, hear me complain!
We evil do-ers spend years at a time coming up with these evil plans and putting them into practice when some hero stumbles in and ruins it all without any preparation.
If they spent just half the time we did preparing to thwart us, I wouldn't mind, but they just wonder in foil all our work and leave without as much as a "well done for trying a new approach to galactic conquest".
I'm the champion of Chaos based rants, hear me complain!
Hmm seems their are far more ways to make SM's then I was aware of. Still considering any lose SM suffer where they aren't able to tactically retreat costs anywhere from 15-50 gene seeds in any large battle all these methods seem to not really compensate for the expected lose in the numerous battles they fights (seriously at any given point the vast amount of chapter/legions are in some war here or their). Still if marines/CSM where anywhere near as powerful as they are in the fiction I suppose it wouldn't be a issue. However going by the time required in most instances to make proper SM/SCM it really does seem logically that their numbers would be considerably diffrent from the era after the heresy (After all it is odd for any given faction of SM/CSM to not be fighting in some form in any given 1 year period).
After all its simple population statistics. Having two children is the minimum number to maintain a population (Its comparable since marines take years to even be good enough to be considered marines) Now this is in peace times so realistically for marine populations to grow you would have to have each gene seed able to create at least 3+ marines. To compensate for failed initiates/Destruction of gene seeds/loses in battle. To argue against this obvious fact is bordering on naive.
After all its simple population statistics. Having two children is the minimum number to maintain a population (Its comparable since marines take years to even be good enough to be considered marines) Now this is in peace times so realistically for marine populations to grow you would have to have each gene seed able to create at least 3+ marines. To compensate for failed initiates/Destruction of gene seeds/loses in battle. To argue against this obvious fact is bordering on naive.
I think what keeps the balance is that the CM have no limit to their numbers (i.e. no codex Astartes) and have more ways of recruitung more marines i.e. fabius, normal implantation with either CM or SP gene-seed , reserections and Daemonculabas.
However, with the constant wars in the eye taking their toll and rampant mutation ruining good gene-seed, tehy would be considerably slowed to the point where their numbers are fluctuating but within constant boundries.
That been said, the Black Legion was numerically inferior at one point and near extinction and now has ten times the men of the Word Bearers. Even with recruits from other legions and renegades an increase of that scale would need the creation of new marines on the scale only a legion could manage.
However, with the constant wars in the eye taking their toll and rampant mutation ruining good gene-seed, tehy would be considerably slowed to the point where their numbers are fluctuating but within constant boundries.
That been said, the Black Legion was numerically inferior at one point and near extinction and now has ten times the men of the Word Bearers. Even with recruits from other legions and renegades an increase of that scale would need the creation of new marines on the scale only a legion could manage.
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