Corax muses that Sanguinius may be able to take Angron in a fight, but Angron isn't a daemon prince at that point. We can only suppose that Angron becomes even more powerful once he's elevated to daemonhood and I'd put my money on a daemonic primarch over Sanguinius.

 

A worthy argument. But Corax also says this about Horus, whereas we know that Sanguinius could steam roller Horus in a fight before his daemonic enhancement. I'm sticking with my argument that Sanguinius's skill and mental abilitys would win over Angron's Daemon Haxx codes.

 

id go with the Angel. the Spear of Telesto would be annoying as hell for angron. soon as hes within cc range, Angel just lights his ass up with the built in flamer. sure its not gonna kill him but that would be very distracting, enough to get him killed if he doesnt recover on the spot.

 

Angron. He has the power of a Daemon Primarch and all the benefits that comes with it. We shouldn't use examples like "he isn't used to having wings" and "his anger could be used against him" in my opinion. He is a Daemon Primarch, so mortal experience like getting used to flying may not be the same as humans.
The same goes for the argument of "being too bulky". Space Marines are very bulky, but despite this they are inhumanly fast compared to normal humans and also quite agile despite their bulk.

Also, who knows what battles Angron has fought? In his time as a Daemon Primarch, he may have fought thousands of batlles in the warp against rival daemons and Princes.


However, despite all this Sanguinius is still...well, Sanguinius, so who knows what could happen? I'd rather have a killer than a fighter on my team, though.

 

If were talking about Angron post-Ascension then I would say Angron. If were talking about Angron pre-Ascension, its obviously more balanced but I would probably still say Angron. But then again these hypothetical 'Vs' situations would heavily rely on circumstance.

Corax merely muses that the only 2 Primarchs that could have stood any chance against Angron's sheer might would have been Horus & possibly Sanguinius. But that is just Corax's opinion, and is by no means fact. All that we know for sure in that regard is that Corax himself knew he couldn't have bested Angron.

As for the OP's 2 reasons for Sanguinius besting Daemon Primarch Angron; 1) He has wings, and 2) Angron seemingly has no experiance against beings of similar strength/stature - are extremley flimsy at best.

Having wings is simply not an issue, and Angron (particually as a Daemon Prince) has a lot more experiance than Sanguinius ever had regarding 'tough opponents'.

 

Actually we're talking Just after his ascention during the battles on Terra. Even the best warrior in the universe has to learn to use his tools. The whole argument is hypothetical but I think when it comes to Sanguinius Vs A Rageing beast which is after all what Angron is I don't think it'll be as simple as Angron going "HA GOTCHA" and tearing Birdy boy a new one. I mean this is Sanguinius we're talking about even Horus doubted he could beat him in a strait fight.

Wings? D-Angro would just grab him mid air and pluck them like chicken feathers then he would easily pummel Sang. who would be too busy rolling in pain.

Grabbing the fast flying primarch with the great big sword doesn't seem like the wisest choice to me.

 

Wings? D-Angro would just grab him mid air and pluck them like chicken feathers then he would easily pummel Sang. who would be too busy rolling in pain.

 

ok first in the fluff and even in the game, Daemons with wings fly because of the magic behind them, not because of any experience with having them or some scientific reasoning, so that arguments right out the door.

Secondly Angron was a playable unit in the early editions of Epic and started the first Armageddon war and was bested by the Grey Knights. So since he was a part of the gaming experience (which mortals had a chance of taking him down) and he was banished by mortals (GK's aren't gods) I think the possibility of being bested by Sanguinis (post Ascension) is pretty balanced. Lets not see the Primarchs as simple marines who are a bit stronger, they were endowed with a small bit of Empreror's soul.

 

So since he was a part of the gaming experience (which mortals had a chance of taking him down) and he was banished by mortals (GK's aren't gods) I think the possibility of being bested by Sanguinis (post Ascension) is pretty balanced. Lets not see the Primarchs as simple marines who are a bit stronger, they were endowed with a small bit of Empreror's soul.

So are you forgetting that Angron is also a Primarch. But also much more, a Primarch-made-Daemon, for all intents and purposes more powerful than a 'normal' primarch.

And as far as Angron's banishment during the First War for Armageddon is concerned, the Grey Knights are literally 'all that', they are the anti-Daemon force in the galaxy. Heavily implied to be created from the Emperor's own DNA, and equipped and blessed with the most potent weaponary available to man. They are all psykers, and have all undergone testing that would render 'normal' Astartes dead or simply insane, they are the pinnacle of the Imperium's military might and greatest weapon of the Emperor. They would be much more effective against Daemons, and indeed a Daemon Primarch than any other loyalist Primarch in all honesty. However the Grey Knights are an incredibly tiny force in comparison to the size of the galaxy and frequent occurence of Chaos insurrections across Imperial Space. They are incredibly valuable and valued, and simply cannot be everywhere at once. To my knowledge an entire company was fielded on Armageddon, this may well have been unprecedented numbers of Grey Knights fielded in a single operation, and less than a handful made it back.

Leading on from that let us not forget that basically the entire company of these invaluable warriors were lost to Angron's hand.

also I want to know where everyone gets all these cool pictures of 40K

As Coder59 said, from the Collected Visions. But you could always use google images, a lot are posted on the internet and google, being a search engine tends to pick them up... :grin:

 

also I want to know where everyone gets all these cool pictures of 40K

 

Horus Heresy Artbooks my friend.

 

I've always been of the mind GW is getting enough of my money, hence why in the long history of dealing with them I haven't purchased one thing that wasn't either a model or a rulebook...money hungry bassards

 

So you've never bought any BL books?

Both those images are from the Horus Heresy: Collected Visions book, pricey at £30 but very beautiful.

 

We assume that Daemonic = More powerful, but does it? Might Daemonic just = Differently powerful? Now, I'm not saying this is the case mind, but just throwing it out there.
What would daemonancy do for a Primarch? Do we have real written examples of them becoming vastly more powerful immediately, or does it take time? Will their new form give them the ability to engage fully with the warp, or just with the things that meshed with their attitudes beforehand? EG, As a Daemon of Khorne, will Angron just be able to power himself with the immortal anger of Khorne himself, or could he make the ground turn to water and turn bystanders into spawn as well? We do know that they are never truly killed, just banished to the warp for a pre-determined length of time, so there is that.
In the end, is a daemon Primarch better in every way, or would Angron just be more, well, Angron-y? In there, somewhere, I feel might lie some way of making a choice that isn't just based on what character you happen to like most.
For me, getting off my tangent and striding manfully back OT, I think it would be close, but a clear head might prevail over boiling fury and mindlessness. So Sanguinius for me.

GFP

 

We assume that Daemonic = More powerful, but does it? Might Daemonic just = Differently powerful? Now, I'm not saying this is the case mind, but just throwing it out there.
What would daemonancy do for a Primarch? Do we have real written examples of them becoming vastly more powerful immediately, or does it take time? Will their new form give them the ability to engage fully with the warp, or just with the things that meshed with their attitudes beforehand?

Horus kicked the emperor's ass, the most powerful psycher in the universe and the strongest 'human' ever.

The emp only won because sanguinius pierced horus's armor and some say horus went easy on the emperor.

 

Yes, but the only fluff I've ever seen on that topic says that the Emperor was so badly wounded becuase he couldn't bring himself to believe his favourite son had fallen so far. When it was revealed to him, he struck back with all of his might and killed Horus. But that is a discussion for a different thread.

On the part of it that is OT, Horus was powered by the 4 Dark Gods themselves, a physical vessel through which they could exercise their power in the materium. That is not a daemon, that is something very different, or at least it is something far above even a Daemon Primarch. Being given a portion of the power of a god is different than becoming part of the warp with all of the good and bad that brings.

GFP

 

True he got buffed four times.

But then again the emperor's insanely strong, he could easily take out a daemon primarch without breaking a sweat, hence why horus got buffed four times over.

And also the emperor isn't a normal human, then again I never thought he was and apparently what I've been thinking has evolved into a theory that he isn't human but rather an old one.

 

To reiterate and expand on my original argument. My take on it is that Corax seemed pretty doubtful that Sanguinius or Horus could best Angron in single combat and was sure he couldn't. Now, as someone mentioned earlier, that is only Corax's opinion - however, as he's talking about people he knows intimately (his own brothers), then I'm inclined to give more weight to his opinion than that of us mere forumites. Thus I'm fairly happy with the conclusion that before his ascension to daemonhood Angron would beat Sanguinius (not every time obviously, but on average he'd win more bouts than Sanguinius - although it would be close).

Also, when they were both 'normal' primarchs, Sanguinius had wings and Angron didn't, but Corax wasn't sure that Sanguinius would win. I don't see that Angron being gifted a pair of wings suddenly make him less capable of defeating Sanguinius if he had a better than even chance of winning without them?

I also believe it's a mistake to think of Angron as little more than a mindless berserker - he may be more inclined than his brothers to give in to his rage, but he's still an engineered superhuman created to be a powerful warrior with both body and mind. Angron may not be as much of a thinker as some of his brothers, but he's still a Primarch and I don't see that Sanguinius would have as much of an advantage on that score as others seem to think.

The talk of Sanguinius having this weapon or that weapon seems fairly irrelevant - all of the primarchs had their favoured weapons and it appears that they were all extremely potent. Sanguinius may have had a powerful weapon that perfectly suits his style of fighting, but then so would Angron. I'm therefore inclined to say that they'd cancel each other out in terms of deciding who'd win this fight.

For me it boils down to the question of would Angron be more or less powerful after his ascension? Well, every account I can think of where a mortal is elevated to daemonhood has them being considerably more powerful afterwards and I don't remember any instance of them needing much time to adapt to their new form - their new powers seem to come naturally to them. Assuming that this is the case with Angron (and as far as I can see there's no reason to suppose it wouldn't be) then yes, Angron would be more powerful afterwards. Of course, as has been mentioned, the changes wrought to his body will also change the nature of his power - he may be more powerful overall, but it's possible that the changes will leave an opening for Sanguinius to exploit.

Therefore it seems to me that, if Angron was likely to win the fight before his ascension, then the best anyone could say is that they think Sanguinius would win assuming that Angron was 'weakened' in some way by becoming a daemon prince - and that seems like a pretty big assumption to me.

 

I agree fully.

Angron is the most aggressive of the Primarchs, with Night Haunter being the most sadistic/darkest.

If Angron were to fight Sang. on equal grounds (the former not being a daemon and the latter having his wings), Angron would win hands down due to his ruthelessness which would add to his strength by a huge margin despite pretty boy's ability to fly.

I don't get why people assume that simply because Sang. can fly he automatically wins.

Can an eagle take on a lion simply because it can fly?

If people are going to go down the 'but sang. can hit and run' road, don't think Angron wouldn't know what to do or that he wouldn't be able to cut Sang. down.

Angron was a gladiator, he knows all the methods of brutal fighting, dirty or otherwise.

Angron could easily aim for Sang's wings, clipping him or fully slicing them off with whatever weapon he usually uses or with his brute strength.

Bottom line: aggressive primarch with no rules versus text-book heroic primarch

 

From what I remember, the original source says that Blood Angels doctrine claims that Sanguinius opened a ***** in the armour of Horus enabling the Emperor to slay Horus. It's not presented as a fact, by any means and may in fact be totally untrue - it's believed because, if true, it means that Sanguinius did not die in vain. The 'first hand' accounts of the duel between Horus and the Emperor (the one by William King for instance) don't include it.

The chaos powers embedded many forms of corruption within the primarchs as they were scattered across the galaxy, some were given physical mutations:

That's a whole lot of assumptions there - sure most of them fit the facts, but they're still speculation.

 

And where is it written that Chaos guided some of the Primarchs to planets that would corrupt their mental state?

 

Indeed. Although I suppose it's possible, so I wouldn't rule it out.

 

Oh yeah, I'm not saying it's not possible - but MD's post presented a lot of speculation as if it were fact. He may end up being right, but at the moment there's not enough evidence to back up his points.

 

With the latest HH book, Sanguinius beats the crap out of daemon Angron.