I disagree that +1 initiative is worth extra points on its own. Perhaps for 2-3 points per model more it would be tempting. I find noise marines are best for their special weapons. Yes, even the sonic blaster in the right meta-game.

 

i usually take a squad of 6-10 with sonic blasters & a DS + stuff champion and drive around killing marines. Slaanesh approves of "burning" marines.

also a 5man squad with a blast master if i want a slaanesh Obj camper/long range firepower.

but NMs are not worth the points to just have the I5 & fearless over CSMs, and the cost for sonic weaponry is way over reasonable cost. *no ranting....:ireful2:*

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if you just want to strike 1st, usually, then IoS is more than enough, also allows for use of special weapons, like meltas, to make for easy transport popping - which is something generic NMs have trouble with.

 

I regularly use 7 Noise Marines, 6 with Sonic Blasters, and 1 Champ with a Doom Siren and a PW, in a Rhino. I camped them on an objective, out of the Rhino, to abuse the Heavy fire mode, and proceeded to decimate ~12 DE Warriors from a 20 man squad.

As with all Chaos Cult Troops, you just need to use them right. If your using Noise Marines, and not using the Sonic Blasters/Blastmaster/Doom Siren then your doing it wrong. Other wise, just use regular CSM's

 

Ding Ding! We have winner. I play NMs in EC theme army and the above is the best way to run them.

I actually run 8 with 5 SBs and DS/PW Champ in a Rhino. Just a little more in pts than Sqaud of 8 Zekers with PF Champ in a Rhino. I think they perfom better at MEQ killing than the Zerkers thanks to the the mass amount of Assualt 2 Bolters with ST5 AP3 Flamer, then Int 5 3 attacks on the charge.Zerkers are better at killing Higher toughness opponets tho or thinning out a Swarm of whatever thanks to the 4 attacks, WS5, and FC.

Its depends on how you use them.

 

it really depends on the point cost you have in the game. i always run noisemarines in games that are 2k and up. anything lower and you lose the flexible army. the reason is you will not have a decent amount of anti armor. i think plague marines are the best choice for low point games.
i run 5 man squads with 1 blastmaster and a champion with a doom siren. place them in a rhino and fire the blastmaster off. when shit gets to close jump out move up 6 have your daemon prince lash a squad and then fire the ap3 template. perfect killing device. then assualt with the I5. ive wrecked people with noisemarines. id take them over any cult troop at high points. khorne players be afraid of noisemarines. my advice

 

Noise Marines without Sonic Blasters seem a bit pointless, you might as well go with CSM with IoS. Given the advantage Sonic Blasters give in terms of being able to move and fire, you should take them if you take Noise Marines.

The problem Noise Marines have is that they're specialised anti-infantry, which puts them at a severe disadvantage in 5th edition, when compared to anything that can take Meltaguns (CSM & Plague Marines).

 

Luke, your "mathhammer" is very flawed. Why does the NM champ cost 50 when the skull champ costs only 36? If you're not adding the doom siren / power weapon then the noise marine champ costs 1 point less than the berserker champion - you didn't mention that.

Also, the skull champ doesn't hurt MC's / dreadnoughts without a powerfist - the NM champ has access to this same fist for the same price - sure he has 1 fewer attack but you simply stated that the skull champ has it & the NM champ does not.

A more fair look at them:

(9) Berserkers + Skull champ w/ PF (10 models total - 250 points)
(8) Noise Marines w/ Sonic Blasters + DS / PF champ (9 models total 255 points)
NO TRANSPORTS

Begin 24+" apart.

(10) Berserkers move first:
18+" apart now. no shots fired
(9) Noise marines stand still:
18+" apart. 8*3+1 bolter shots = 2.77 kills round down to 2
(8) Berserkers move:
12+" apart now. no shots fired:
(9) Noise marines stand still:
12+" apart. 8*3+1 bolter shots = 2.77 kills round down to 2
(6) Berskers move:
6+" apart now. 6 pistol shots fired: 0.66 kills round up to 1
no assaults as 6+" apart.
(8) Noise marines move forward
<6" apart. 7*2+doom siren (assume hit 3) = 0.77 + 2 kills round up to 3 (gotta round up sometimes...)

Noise marines assault:
I5: 7*3 attacks = 1.75 kills round up to 2
I4: n/a skull champ only one surviving (2+2+3+2 = 9)
I1: 3*WS5 attacks: 1.77 kills round up to 2
I1: 3*WS4 attacks: 1.25 kils round down to 1

Noise marines remain with 6 models left.

The only things that would change in this scenario is (a) the inclusion of terrain to slow the moving berserkers, (b) if the noise marines had to back up after the second turn, this would result in 1 fewer shot each meaning est 1 fewer berserker casualty. In the scheme of things that translates into maybe one more dead noise marine but just as many dead berserkers.

Of course throw vehicles into the mix & you have a whole other animal, but give berserkers a rhino & noise marines a blastmaster & I'd still personally prefer noise marines.

Having said all that, it is obvious that berserkers will outfight noisemarines in CC, they have more attacks, a higher weapon skill and if they get the charge strike simultaneously & with a higher strength - all in all leading to dead noise marines. But NM's aren't supposed to be combat machines, they are a confused unit that doesn't know exactly what it is supposed to do in this edition. I5 doesn't help with shooting, but all of their upgrades are meant for shooting. Warp scream (made all units in assault with them I1) was a much more effective power than I5, it made them a shooty unit with an edge & didn’t confuse people with regards to the PF / PW question (PF’s are required not requested…)

Noise marines have been further kicked in the teeth by the GK book & the inclusion of force halberds. Making FW wielding GK I6 with hammerhand to make then S5 as well really hurt noise marines, especially when GK also have storm bolters (thats what a sonic blaster is if you move...).

For competitiveness PM are a more solid choice. More survivable and access to the special weapons from the codex makes them a fantastic choice.

To answer the question posed by the OP: Noise marines are great for the following: killing hordes (much better than berskerers as they go down just as fast in CC to bulk ork / hormagaunt attacks), killing marines (Blastmasters are krak blasts…) & looking good whilst wearing pink.

 

Luke, your "mathhammer" is very flawed. Why does the NM champ cost 50 when the skull champ costs only 36? If you're not adding the doom siren / power weapon then the noise marine champ costs 1 point less than the berserker champion - you didn't mention that.

Your right most have not been paying attention. Its actually skull champ 61 NM champ 65. Really got to stop posting late at night, but all things said and done their is a profoundly good reason people take berzerkers over NM's and that's the fact they require less situational setting up, and also the fact that CC is profoundly more powerful then shooting this edition.

Seriously every time I see one of these threads I can't help but think the people involved are either lying to themselves or think they are smarter then the 1000 or so tournament power gamers that design competitive lists....I can tell you blankly right now you aren't (With some rare exceptions).

Also note that 75% of your critique can be ignored because no one avoids taking rhino's and taking a rhino cripples the NM, but greatly increases the strength of the berzerkers. I may have made some math errors but that fact that you think comparing two units against each other in a ideal situation for one says nothing about their effectiveness of said units. At the end of the day their is a reason most people avoid NM, and no amount of fudging the numbers will hid their huge amount of weaknesses and high cost.

 

which of course if you read the last 1/2 of my post is exactly what I was saying...

of course a blasmaster can pop a rhino from 48" away thus leaving the zerkers running across the field. Barring that, if the noise marines get the charge the doom siren & init bonus will decimate the zerkers, the zerkers get the charge they will decimate the NM. It is just as easy to get a charge with either but the strength of the zerkers ultimately is their staying power in combat after the charge happens. The extra attack and extra WS has them beat out the noisemarines against all other opponents (bar things like genestealers / hive tyrants).

But, to the question what would you use noiesmarines for? killing hordes at range. What does it better in the chaos codex?

 

of course a blasmaster can pop a rhino from 48" away thus leaving the zerkers running across the field. Barring that, if the noise marines get the charge the doom siren & init bonus will decimate the zerkers, the zerkers get the charge they will decimate the NM. It is just as easy to get a charge with either but the strength of the zerkers ultimately is their staying power in combat after the charge happens. The extra attack and extra WS has them beat out the noisemarines against all other opponents (bar things like genestealers / hive tyrants).

Blastmasters aren't exactly good anti-tank weapons. The chances of busting open a Rhino aren't that great.

I'm not sure why it is that when comparing the two units they're being put up against one another. Such an example only really makes any sense in Chaos vs. Chaos battles and isn't really overly helpful when determining if a unit is any good or not.

But, to the question what would you use noiesmarines for? killing hordes at range. What does it better in the chaos codex?

A better question is "Why do I need to kill hordes from range?". Chaos Marines have lots of options for beating the hell out of cheap infantry either from range or up close. Basic Chaos infantry are pretty decent in close combat against said opponents, too. Then there are Obliterators with their plasma cannons, Defiliers with battle cannons, Predators, heavy weapons and so on. Your usual (non)competitive Chaos army doesn't contain much in the way of tools to deal with such things, but that's because they're poorly written.

 

Can I point that you could bring both Bezerkers AND Noise Marines, then use them in unison to counter the others weaknesses?

 

Personally I think NM are amazing compared to regular CSM.

Mainly because you don't need a full 10 man squad to take a heavy weapon.

And an STR 8 AP 3 48" range Plasma Cannon that causes Pinning and doesn't Over Heat whats not to love?

Also Fearlessness is important these days, many games are won or lost on a single moral check on that unit holding the objective.

 

Basic CSM every time. Noise Marines pay far too much for I5 and Fearless, and end up being overcosted GK, who are even worse in combat.

I agree with Katie - you can't really compare the two to each other. Look at each unit, and see how well it kills infantry, heavy infantry, units in cover, light and heavy armour, or how well it holds objectives, or how long it will tarpit something etc. The one that is the better at the majority of these roles is the better unit.

I've being banging on about oppurtunity cost for ages, but I really think it's emphasized here. CSM don't really need that much anti-horde help, considering most all infantry in the book have 2 CCWs. However, if you take NM you're missing out on the opportunity to take cheap meltaguns and the other heavy weapons. Chaos really need melta in their Troops and Elites, because without it the Obliterators (Although a fine unit) become overloaded - they can only kill three vehicles a turn, and that's not particularly likely due to them also having anti-TEq duties to tend to. The more Chosen/Terminators/CSM you have with meltaguns, the less pivotal the Obliterators become (Good because lynchpins are targettable - threats across the entire force are much harder to deal with).

Midnight

 

I disagree that NMs are useless and vastly overshadowed by CSM or Zerkers. I've use them all the time for MEQ killing thanks to the Combination of Lash and DS/PW Champ. Add in 5 Sonic Blasters to a 8 man Squad for added punch if you want but Ultimately the DS/PW Champ is enough in this roll.

Roll up in Rhino for safety or simply get out and move into position. Lash Units into Cone of Doom, Hit a whole 10 man Marine Squad with a Str 5 AP 3 Killer. Whats left you can pop shot another or two with 5 Sonic Blasters and the 2 Bolt Pistols. Charge whats left at Int 5 with 21 attacks, then 4 PW attacks. Thats a guaranteed dead squad on average. The sweet thing is I have the Option to just wipe out Combat Saud's with the DS alone at times. Never have to exit the Rhino unlike Zerk's. Also If I'm counter Charged by another unit I can still dish out Damage first unlike Zerk's who seem to be counter charged all the time if they dont kill those pesky 3+ saves that are made all the time.

Truth is CSMs are awesome for the Re roll LD and Meltas. NMs are better at killing ME than Zerkers or CSMs in Range then CC. Since Razorspam is the only real SM Tank heavy list and since most people play SM I find NMs worth it when used right. Zerkers are awesome but I seen too many Zerkers get blown out of there Rhinos and then shot to pieces or Charged by other Armies. NMs are flexible at least with Range and CC.

 

I think you should use noise marines all the time. It'll increase your odds of losing which will make GW give us a new codex faster.

 

Nah, Necrons would have gotten a Codex by now if GW gave a shit about wins/losses.

@Warlock - I find that the most common Space Marines list is just mechanised, and for Vanillas that's Rhinos. Buying those expensive Noise Marines just so you can have the Champion is a bit pointless - I'd rather have a unit in which every squad member can kill something, rather than one expensive dude with some expensive, ablative wounds.

Midnight