well when the chaos gods get involved especially Mr tzeentch how could anybody forsee what would happen? even horus didnt know he was under chaos's influence untill quite late,he just figured was doin the uh..hhmmm "right thing" so id go for "doing the best with what hes got" haha

 

Dont you see it as a clever ploy he obviously knows he needs the mechanicum and plays to there beliefs to ally with them. Thats the sign of a great commander no a hypocrit. i think that the emporer always wanted to be worshipped and him to be worshipped alone he only condemed lorgar because the time wasnt right and he allowed himself to be mortally wounded there is nothing better than a martyr god

 

ah yes it's definetely clever BUT not "rightious" and that's what the emperor claims to be (and demands in other's behaviour). so being clever in this way only makes him a clever hypocrit IMO...

 

the emp only united the imperium ,
only a man ,
a powerful ,phsycher,tactitian of a man,
but still a man,its like Jesus,he could of had a great job as a shoe repairer,but he didnt,thats stupid
wrath is a sin , but he atacked a market in anger ,hipocit
see history distorts everything...

wise words...

 

Jesus attacked a market?

You mean the people selling crap in the temple? Yeah, that obviously wasn't a "needs retribution" sort of issue was it?

 

Largely depends who you ask.

With the fate of the entire human race hanging on the disposition of a bunch of crazy-ass socially inept nerds with the most mind-boggling technology humanity has ever seen, I think it's safe to say that the Emperor was in the clear when he played to their beliefs. Seriously, who gives a flying fuck what the AdMech thinks as long as they churn out plasma guns and warlord titans?

 

wise words ,gallus,wise words...

 

i agree with galus, he knew the mechanicum was an ally he needed and that by denouncing their religion that he would risk going to war with them. that would stop his crusade before it even began, which is worse than what some would consider being a hypocrite

 

Well if you read Mechanicum thoroughly

SPOILER!!

Then you find out it was the Emperor who manipulated the creation of the prophecy regarding the Omnissiah in the first place- that's how lengthy his plans to claim dominion over mankind are.

 

hmm, that was indeed a spoiler since i'm only roughly halfway the book and read nothing of this so far. it isn't a real surprise though and fits in with the image of the emperor as masterschemer. i will however need to finish the book first now before i feel free to pass any moral judgement on these actions.

(on beforehand though, going on the information provided by baron spikey, i believe a] it makes the emperor a big, scheming, though pragmatic, hypocrit and b] (a little on a sidenote) it strenghtens my beliefs that it was indeed the emperor himself who scattered the primarchs through space as this also allowed him to later turn up as a heroic entity to "retrieve"them, the same modus operandi he seems to have aplied on mars. meaning Horus wasn't entirely wrong in his misgivings of the emperor.

 

The Emperor has always been a hypocrite. To some people he is a god. To others, he is not. The Imperial Church (which did spring up before he died), fully believes him to be a living god. The Space Marines and the Inquisition, however, simply look to him as a fatherly figure. The Primarchs and the Emperor himself would be appalled to think of his as a god. Also, he does in fact perpetuate the Mechanicum's beliefs, in order to win them over when he masquerades as the Omnissah on Mars, despite telling everyone else he is no god. So yes, I do believe the Emperor was a hypocrite. Was it necessary? Probably. But in answer to your main question, YES.

-Dirge

 

destroying religion to set up his own?

 

I'd vote for this.

I think that's what the Horus Heresy books seem to be aiming towards. That's why the Traitor Legions, and especially Horus, felt so justified in turning their back on him. I can't remember the name of the race but it was Horus' first delegation without the Emperor and he met this planetary government that had been trading peacefully with a number of alien civilizations. Anyway, no spoilers here... but stuff happened and in the end Horus' convictions were shaken by what he was forced to do in the name of his duty to his father. The same theme repeats until he officially falls from grace.

When Horus realizes that there is a budding religion of the Emperor it pushes him into complete rebellion.

I got the reference from Legion. Grammaticus thought the Emperor was a total douche right, that is the alpha level psyker you guys are talking about? But the Emperor was beyond even Grammaticus. I thought I remembered reading Grammaticus saying something about his abilities being dwarfed by the Emperor's. Like a candle compared to the sun or something like that.

I'm working on Lord of the Night now so perhaps I'll understand that reference in the next couple of days.



(My first post. Hi. My name might seem lame but it was my first 40k Rogue Trader character's name years ago. He was one of the few survivors of a zombie plague in a hive.)

(By the way 40k rocks! I think in future generations it will supplant Star Wars as the epic science fiction story of the general population.)

 

To conquer a galaxy in but a lowly 200 hundred years requires you to simply go with what works in order to conquer it quickly.
Imagine turning every single forge world into a smoking ruin, a massive waste of time, valuable resources, and precious knowledge all of which the big E needed.

He manipulated these people to his cause with the minimum of bloodshed (humanities blood at least, those poor zenos).

We all know how far reaching his plans were, and I choose to believe that he did want to eliminate religion but he knew that it could not be done over night, maybe his plan included slowly weaning every generation of the mechnacium off their faith.

Yes he is without doubt a manipulative and bloodthirsty swine, but i would prefer his rule over that of the Chaos gods any day

 

aw come on rule under khorne would be sweet!

 

What? In the round about way that you wouldnt experience it long?

Anyway. I think somthing diferent. The emporer is a re-encarnation of tons of shamans souls in one body. Therefore he is probably scitzo. Answers all the questions, sometimes he wants to be a god, sometimes he dosent, sometimes he is brilliant, sometimes he's a dipshit, sometimes he is kind and fatherly, sometimes he is a Xenocidol asshole, sometimes he is verry good at predicting the future, and sometimes he cant even tell what side hos oun sons are on.

 

The Emperor was a hypocrite from the start. He seems to be freakishly powerful but he obviously is hugely faulted in many ways.

 

at least hes not lonely o the golden toilet! the emp is deff an interesting character. and how do we know the space marines dont worship him. i kinda think they do. even alot of the pre heresy marines thought he was a god. and maybe he is a god. hes super godly powerful. hes super smart(sometimes) and hes lived for a really long time. who says he not a god. just because we think he could die doesnt mean he will. only a god could do the things he could. ALL PRAISE HIS GODLYNESS THE EMPEROR!!

 

I think you also need to factor in the account of the only other alpha level psyker to encounter the big E as stated in Legion had the opinion that he was prettry much a blood thirsty madman

 

Hypocrisy? The Emperor? No, he would NEVER do that. Not at all. Read Lord of the Night.

-Spoiler-
The Butler did it!

 

Thanks for the welcome.

Nope, I have no army. I'm more of an old school RPGer and I just don't have patience to paint miniatures. That being said I've bought sets off my buddies in the past but never got really enthused with the tabletop aspect of the game. I guess I'm more into Inquisitor or Necromunda from Specialist Games which are IMHO closer to the original spirit of 40k Rogue Trader which I came into the hobby with years ago.

These days I just read the fluff. I have Squad Command for my PSP and am interested in the PC games but the specs on my PC are pretty bad.

I can't say I agree or disagree with the Traitor Legions but I know I'd feel pissed off too if I was expected to go out and wage a holy war to create an artificial spirtual power vacuum so my leader could achieve godhood. I mean, think about it. This was before all the religious doctrine of the marines. They were just supposed to go out and bring anyone to heel that didn't jive with the view of the Emperor. In other words, kneel before Terra or we'll conquer you. Forsake all your religion and culture, you are human and therefore it is the manifest destiny of the Imperium to own you.

This was what they were expected to enforce but the level of brainwashing pre-Heresy wasn't quite so profound. I think the Astartes were way more arrogant than they are in current milieu. They were very much aware of their superhuman abilities. But when they were asked to destroy and conquer in the name of what proved to be a selfish goal I think they flipped.

So... I'm not sure if I answered that... :biggrin:

im waiting for a 40k movie(that would have to be soo gory) and you made a good point. the hh books should you the traitor legions in a different light. instead of seeing demon princes you see super beings cry because they are neglected by their father. i really like reading about the evil guys when they were good. like how they talked about the Primarchs having emotions. and the reasons that made them turn to choas.(most of them did want to go to chaos!). it is a really cool way off look a what actually was. instead of what they say happened.

I can't remember what book it was in the Heresy series, but it was interesting to see the World Eaters during their fall. I remember Kharn in a fierce fight with a former ally who was trying to reason with him, saying something about how they had entered the eight-fold path and their being no escape from it.

Fulgrim's fall too was especially good.

I really really enjoy the Heresy series, excellent stuff.

 

im waiting for a 40k movie(that would have to be soo gory) and you made a good point. the hh books should you the traitor legions in a different light. instead of seeing demon princes you see super beings cry because they are neglected by their father. i really like reading about the evil guys when they were good. like how they talked about the Primarchs having emotions. and the reasons that made them turn to choas.(most of them did want to go to chaos!). it is a really cool way off look a what actually was. instead of what they say happened.

 

Hey man and welcome to the herecy! yes i know i am still a petty juinor member but... welcome brother. First off i love seeing an interseted fan of the wh40k universe and totally agree on it becoming like the super titan franchise of starwars. Secondly im not quite sure if you actually have an army, and a bit unclear as to if you agree with horus and the traitor leigons or not, but i would love to discuss

 

Sorry, I screwed up my last post. I tried to do a multi-quote and replied to this in the post above.

doh!

 

Well teah I think you did kinda haha. I do agree mostly but also my view might be slightly affected by the warp lol I dont know but im in love with chaos and the chaos space marines. The stories and whatnot of them are sick alone, but what really gets me is the HQs and charecters. I am about to start this comic on the Demon hunters and the assention to deamonhood of the chaos lord of my custom leigon. And if your pc sucks but you want an rts thats like the 40k universe check out starcraft

 

The kinda official line is that he needed to because of the void dragons influence on the people of mars as another star god it craved worship at the same time as inspireing the people to achieve feats that they would not have achieved without it. Or so they say so balance it up either the people of mars end up as necrons or you tell them a little white lie regarding their saviour. Mechanicum faith has always been a bit messed up no one really understand it.

And i say unto lucius "what happens if a dropod lands on your head"

 

I have only read the Necron Codex and a couple novels with them as the bad guy. I'm not familiar with the Void Dragon though. Who or what is this?

 

The sense I got of the Emperor is that he knows and understands the suffering he causes but does it anyway since it's the only way to save humanity.
The Emperor is/was trying to guide humanity and prepare it for it's evolution into a psychic race without it falling to Chaos, not an easy job. He lays the seed that will become the mechanicum because he knows he will need them to reach his aims, he creates 20 sons to fulfill a role to reach his aims. When the result of failure is the destruction of humanity there are few prices that are not worth paying.
I've wondered if the imperium's switch to worshipping the Emperor as a god is the Emperor's "Plan B" rather than the Ecclesiarchy and High Lords ignoring his wishes.

 

I get what you're saying about the whole "Plan B", that's a good thought.

According to http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Void_Dragon , which I'm not sure is official 40k canon or not... the Emperor went to Mars in the 12th century....

Horus Heresy and the Dragon of Mars

In the book series, The Horus Heresy, a great deal about an entity almost certainly the Void Dragon is revealed, called The Dragon of Mars. The Emperor himself defeated a creature of godlike power who existed on Earth itself centuries ago (What this implies about the Emperor's natural lifespan is uncertain, but Space Marines, his genetic children, do not age normally either) sometime during the 12th century (the text states during the reign of the Emperor Diocletian however, which suggests a date around the 3rd/4th century)3. He traveled to Mars and imprisoned the entity within the Noctis Labyrinth, purposefully not destroying it. The creature is described as having "drunk the heart of stars" and "worshipped as a god", which heavily implies it to be a C'Tan. It had no name of its own, but the Emperor dubbed it "The Dragon of Mars", and bound it there. Once the warpstorms began and the Dark Age of Technology ended, the Dragon of Mars sought to claim the red planet by sending out dreams from its imprisonment, teaching the humans there how to build incredibly advanced machines, and in turn, worship those machines. Thus, the Dragon directly created the Mechanicum. This was in fact the Emperor's plan all along: to create a technologically advanced society that would be able to provide the industrial machinery for his great crusade. ​

It's gotten a bit too convoluted at this point.

:shok:

So, if he was capable of interplanetary travel without the aid of technology... in the 12th century. Then, OMFG... he must truly be a god. Think about the maturation of his powers over the interim. From the 12th century to the beginning of the Great Crusade.