Is it your contention that individuals might seek to gain a gaming advantage by the use of a 'counts as' codex? Surely not ....

I too hope that hedgehogs feature in their forthcoming excretia.

:laugh:

 

I don't care if people want to bitch rape each other on the table top but just don't sully the fluff by lying about why you're using the goddamn Codex. :angry:

And yes I am arrogant/confident enough to think I can take on a healthy portion of Heresy's readership and win. :king:

 

OK, I'll assume this is in response to my comment about Raven Guard (considering your response in the BT thread)? I by no means claim to be a fluffmaster so I'm interested. Alright then.

Blood Angels counting as Raven Guard. Assault Marines as troops lends itself to the assault based armies we so often see the Raven Guard played as. The Raven Guard claim to 'strike with surgical precision'. Scattering deep strikes hardly seem precise. IIRC, Descent of Angels take care of that. This makes Vanguard Veterans viable, which is even fluffier for Raven Guard, and if you still don't think Vanguard are any good, then there is always count as Sanguard. As far as I can remember, Blood Angels have access to the vast majority of the Vanilla units, so there's no restriction there.

Essentially, the crux of my argument is that the Blood Angel Codex allows for superior Deep Striking and more effective jumper armies, which strikes me as an excellent representation of the Raven Guard.

I have another one- although the Deathwatch doesn't have a codex, Pedro Sternguard counting as Deathwatch. Perhaps with allied inquisitors.

I guess it's time for you to kick my arse then.

 

I have another one- although the Deathwatch doesn't have a codex, Pedro Sternguard counting as Deathwatch. Perhaps with allied inquisitors.

I think this works really well. But can apply to normal sternguard without the use of Pedro.

We have plenty of references to codex chapters being joined by the Ordo Xenos in an attempt to thwart invasion etc.

Sternguard as Deathwatch is a fine cross over.

WH being used as Ordo Xenos is probably another one. The powers can be given different names and the items affect heretics and Xenos alike.


The only other one I can think of changing over... is Adeptus Arbites as Space Marine Scouts, in carpace armor, well trained, with shotguns. They have access to some gear but not everything. Power weapons as power mauls etc. The only thing they miss is the Rhino which has been standard Arbites transport since RT. The fact that Arbites had models containing Bolters adds to this. GL counting as HB etc for fluff purposes.

 

As for the Deathwatch one, if you take Pedro the Sternguard don't count as Troops, they just become scoring units (not the same thing), so that wouldn't really work, you'd still need ordinary Tactical Marines (or Scouts, if you prefer).

 

I am aware of this- although it does help that they can score. Scouts can be explained as forward reconnaissance teams, or as an inquisitorial component. Tactical Marines could be fresh inductees? Or maybe just use scouts. Seems like less of a stretch.

On another note- I'm starting to get the feeling that I'm remembering the Descent of Angels rule incorrectly (not exactly an expert on blood angels). I seem to remember a rule in the Blood Angel codex which prevents deep strike scatter?

 

Night Lords "Count as" Blood Angels....with more substance than "Fast and Powerful"...(and some SPOILERS!)

...to me Fluff abounds...also counting ABD's Night Lords (minor Night Lords BL spoilers!)...i realize the Novels are prone to embelishing "Rules Fluff" in the spirit of moving the story along and all...but as inspiration for putting these two Legions together, its almost a cosmic connection...


~ Jump Pack Centric...Quick Assault and Extraction

~the use of "Fear" ie, Death Masks (Painted Skull Faceplates), Psychic Power : Fear of the Darkness

~Night Lords are not "True" Chaos...of all the Traitor Legions, they are the "Purest"...they split before the Heresy and so are likely to have kept thier "prefered" method of engaging the enemy instead of adopting "Chaos" tactics...Night Lords -always- work better alone, even when working with others (if that makes any sense)

~Night Lords are not as fractured as most "Chaos" Legions...in "Throne of Lies" the Night Lords gathering was emense...almost the entire Legion, acting as one...and included in its description units not used by Chaos

~in Soul Hunter...i do believe the Land Raider arived by Deep Strike :wink: (loved that part)

~Talos actually uses a Blood Angel's Sword - Aurum...the two Legions have fought before :smoke:

~NightLords get what they can, when they can...it would make sense that they might use Engines and Gear they directly pilfer from Loyalist Legions, and not bother to "spike" em all out

~Night Lords employ Tech Preists...at least two that we know of...to a Night Lord, the role of "Sanguinary Priest" might be filled by a Tech Priest...gathering gene-seed,providing extra suport...in The Core, thier Tech Priest not only did that, but even had a few future Dreadnought candidates "on ice"

~Night Lords use Dreadnoughts...who do not attack thier own


~Blood Angel Units can be renamed easily to fit a Night Lord setting...(for example) Sanguinary Guard = Terror Guard (death masks)....Mephiston, Lord of Death = Malvolen, Lord of Darkness...Sanguinary Priest = Tech Priest...etc etc

...indeed the BL Stories are an inspiration to me...but somehow...the BA Codex just fits the Night Lords "feel"...on all counts...and im not a whiney, competative gamer...i just love Night Lords...and want to play something other than "Chaos" without playing the same old, same old red painted Blood Angels Army...


:victory:

 

Night Lords....

...im currently converting a Night Lords Army to run with the Blood Angels Codex...

...to me Fluff abounds...also counting ABD's Night Lords (minor Night Lords BL spoilers!)...i realize the Novels are prone to embelishing "Rules Fluff" in the spirit of moving the story along and all...but as inspiration for putting these two Legions together, its almost a cosmic connection...


~ Jump Pack Centric...Quick Assault and Extraction

They have no more jump packs than any other Chaos Legion. That is a stereotype.

~the use of "Fear" ie, Death Masks, Psychic Power : Fear of the Darkness

Meh, fair point on that one.

~Night Lords are not "True" Chaos...of all the Traitor Legions, they are the "Purest"...they split before the Heresy and so are likely to have kept thier "prefered" method of engaging the enemy instead of adopting "Chaos" tactics...Night Lords -always- work better alone, even when working with others (if that makes any sense)

10,000 years ago you would be right. By now loads of them have fallen, the protagonist of Soul Hunter was very much in the minority, even some of his battle brothers had fallen to Chaos, such as that Slaanesh guy who heard peoples fears.

~Night Lords are not as fractured as most "Chaos" Legions...in "Throne of Lies" the Night Lords gathering was emense...almost the entire Legion, acting as one...and included in its description units not used by Chaos

Bull, bull, bull, they are extremely fractured as was indicated by ADB. They all fought for trinkets after Night Haunters death, one taking his crown, and other taking various things which they believed gave them the right to lead the Legion. That didn't happen, so they are now lots of warbands, albiet of varying sizes. Finally, Curze personally said he didn't give a sh*t about what happens to the Legion after he dies.

~in Soul Hunter...i do believe the Land Raider arived by Deep Strike :wink:

Not sure.

~Talos actually uses a Blood Angel's Sword - Aurum :smoke:

Whoop de do what does it all mean Basil?

~NightLords get what they can, when they can...it would make sense that they might use Engines and Gear they directly pilfer from Loyalist Legions, and not bother to "spike" em all out

Not unique to them. Also it was more bits of armour, maybe individual weapons, but big things like Land Raider etc would be very hard to come by intact.

~Night Lords employ Tech Preists...at least two that we know of...to a Night Lord, the role of "Sanguinary Priest" might be filled by a Tech Priest...gathering gene-seed,providing extra suport...in The Core, thier Tech Priest not only did that, but even had a few future Dreadnought candidates "on ice"

Clutching at straws IMO.

~Night Lords use Dreadnoughts...who do not attack thier own

That's not accurate about Chaos Dreadnoughts at all; they are big raving lunatics that will go bonkers eventually.

~Blood Angel Units can be renamed easily to fit a Night Lord setting...(for example) Sanguinary Guard = Terror Guard....Mephiston, Lord of Death = Malvolen, Lord of Darkness...Sanguinary Priest = Tech Priest...etc etc

Sigh.

...indeed the BL Stories are an inspiration to me...but somehow...the BA Codex just fits the Night Lord "feel"...on all counts...

...those are my ideas so far...what ya think?

Just admit that you want to use the codex for competitive reasons and I personally won't mind.

Basically it's - I want to be competitive so I will fit the fluff around this competitive codex. If this is the case, I don't mind, although don't try and pass it of as wanting a more 'fuff' based army.

:victory:

Alot of what you have just said is nonesense. I've stated my opinions above in green.

 

yeah, dont bother Baron...rip my points to shreds, thats fine, thats part of the discussion...but the personal shit at the end there was uncalled for...im just trying to share my intrest and love for the fluff and put forth some effort other than "Fast and Powerful"...but you got me all figured out huh?...piss off...

 

Wow, relax.

Maybe your joking too, but IMO Baron wasn't 'personally' attacking you.

All myself (and perhaps Baron) are suggesting is that are you trying to make a fluffy Night Lord's list OR are you trying to fit the Night Lords fluff around a very competitive codex?

My opinion on the matter is simple:

You can do anything you want, it's your hobby too and I nor anyone else can stop you playing it as you wish.

However, you nor anyone else should pretend to be more concerned about fluff, in order disguise the fact that you want a competitive army, based on your chosen theme.

Basically a Wolf in Sheeps clothing type deal.

But no-one is 'personally' attacking 'you'.

 

Ravenwing could make an interesting Raven Guard force. Lots of Bikes with Locator Beacons, Land Speeders for quick heavy-ish support, Deep Striking Terminators and Assault Squads.
Loganwing might make for an interesting World Eaters-esque Terminator force; mainly because of the individualism of each model, and because of the brutality such a force could bring. Plus, you could have some Lone wolves to represent some of the more single-minded and accomplished Skull Champions.
Tyranids might work for an AdMech force. Mainly because of the biomorphs. I could also see the insect-like look being an interesting match for some of the more extreme Skitarii.
Dark Eldar could, possibly, be twisted to make a Slaaneshi cult, either Daemonic or mortal. I actually like the idea of it being the 'Court of the Dark Prince'; a Wytch Cult might fix this theme better, possibly with Hellions (the sensation of high speed on a flimsy Skyboard must be incredibly intoxicating), possibly Reavers. Maybe Scourges because of the body mods? You could maybe include Haemonculi, but they might be more Nurgle-y, although, again, the body mods + pain thing could see them qualify.
The Chaos Codex might be used, if you ignore the Marks and obviously Chaos-y units, as a Pre-Heresy Astartes book. You get the larger squads, more free-form weapons and the Astartes seem to be more brutal- possibly representing them before the psycho-conditioning was amped up after the Heresy was over. In saying that, Obliterators might be Robot Maniples, and Possessed might be Raven Guard 'weregeld'.
Just some ideas off the top of my head; hope I've got the idea!

GFP

 

OK, I will step up to bat for Thousand Sons being better represented by Necrons, as it gives emotionless armies of souls trapped in several different types of metal bodies

WBB better represents the Rubric Marines not actually being killed but rather suffering damage until the binding is weakened enough to need a Sorcerer to rebind them.

Destroyers give the army the possibility of Rubric Terminators.

Psychic powers and guns are just fluff labels on a series of dice rolls so sorcery can be represented by any codex's weapons options.

Also Phase out better represents the Thousand Son Sorcerer Lord's mysterious goals for the battle.

The Deceiver's powers are more Tzeentchian than a DP with wings.

The Monolith makes a good Daemon Engine with Sorcerous Portal.

And my favourite reason: no-one will start their critique of the army with you need to replace X with Obliterators.

 

OK, I will step up to bat for Thousand Sons being better represented by Necrons, as it gives emotionless armies of souls trapped in several different types of metal bodies

So far makes sense.

WBB better represents the Rubric Marines not actually being killed but rather suffering damage until the binding is weakened enough to need a Sorcerer to rebind them.

Doesn`t happen. If the armour is breached on a rubrik marine, they fall. And a ritual is needed to restore the soul into repaired armour, it`s not a quick fix you can do on the battlefield.

Destroyers give the army the possibility of Rubric Terminators.

Totally, `cos terminators can fly and have superior heavy bolters and no power weapons...

Psychic powers and guns are just fluff labels on a series of dice rolls so sorcery can be represented by any codex's weapons options.

Granted.

Also Phase out better represents the Thousand Son Sorcerer Lord's mysterious goals for the battle.

What, we failed, let`s fuck off? It`s feasible, but not the strongest point you`ve made.

The Deceiver's powers are more Tzeentchian than a DP with wings.

But they`re not that good. And a DP works fine with psychic powers. You don`t have to give him wings, remember.

The Monolith makes a good Daemon Engine with Sorcerous Portal.

So does a Land Raider.

And my favourite reason: no-one will start their critique of the army with you need to replace X with Obliterators.

No, it`ll be Destroyers (I mean, terminators) instead. :laugh:

Well, it`s not the worst idea, but from a gaming viewpoint I think you`re better off with the actual TS! Necrons are not exactly a forgiving force, no matter what you pretend they are! :laugh:

Secondly - What's the point if you don't cite sources Baron? While I have no allusions about your knowledge of the fluff, you CAN be wrong, and you could lie if you chose, without sources.

Except he`s not. And he`s called on other fluff lords to help, who would know (along with plenty of others) if he was lying or wrong. I`m sorry, nothing persopnal at you Elessar, but you lost a lot of credibility when you made this accusation at someone who has made no secret of how important the fluff is to him.

Which is a shame, because a lot of what you said made sense, and I happen to agree with everything else. Fluff is for us to interpret, but the primary rule of the game is to have fun.

If I come across an opponent who plays the BA dex with his DA (and I have) it takes a bit away from the game for me. I asked him why, and he said "the list is better."

I was still playing my beloved necrons, so what was his fucking excuse?

Waaah! My dick`s gonna fall off if I ever lose a game!

Goddamnit, people, if you don`t like your armies, then why the fuck do you even play? If your list is no good, why don`t you just get better at it? :rtfm:

 

Well, Blood Angels have no more Assault Squads than normal Marines.

As to "Counts as", well, they've painted their army, so why not use it how they want? I wouldn't have an issue if someone turned up with a force painted like Starsky and Hutch with a Gran Torino as their transport using Tau as the basis, I'd (be impressed) be as happy to play them as against an actual Tau army.

If people feel the need to lie, well, so? It doesn't matter if you get beaten by Blood Angels painted as Blood Angels, or Blood Angels painted as Night Lords.

Sanguinary Guard could be the Chosen Jump Pack Bodyguards of a Night Lord Commander who's so terrifying he uses the rules for Dante, with a Daemon Pistol. Sanguinary Priests could be one of the few possessed providing a conduit to the Warp which decreases the damage of all weaponry.

Fast Rhino Hulled Transports - anyone can supercharge them, and a Daemonically Possessed Rhino could easily do that.

RAS without Jump Packs are dedicated CC units, Tac Marines less so, Scouts are Cultists or Renegade Guard blessed by Chaos, Furios/Death Co Dreadnoughts are your Crazed Chaos Dreadnoughts...

In short, yes it'd be nice to play against someone who said yeah I chose BA for my NL because I thought the current CSM dex tongued a tight little brown one, but not everyone will. But if someone's gone to the trouble of spending £20 nearly on a book, and £200-300 on an army and paints etc, then they have the right to play whichever army book they like.

 

jeez...wtf is up with the "competative" paranoia?...why would i lie about some bullshit like that? lol...frankly, i suck at playing warhammer right now....ive only begun really playing in the last year or so....i have ALOT to learn about the game itself...much less "which army can i win a tournament with"...im a loooooong way off from any kind of tournament play...even if i had a bad ass set up with win written all over it...theres probly a greater than 50% chance id fuck it up anyway right now...trust me, getting a win right now is hard enough no matter what army i play...and before you say "see, that proves it!"...

....as it happens...i "play" fluffy...alot of my losses are due to that fact...my chaos marines i play with no Obliterators, cause they are not fluff, ive even proxied a few to test, did better than i ussualy do, and still am trying to find something to use besides them...i have a small daemon army...Khorne only...because Chaos Gods "working together" doesnt feel that fluffy either...i got into this hobby because the fluff is so encompassing and relavant that it has a place even in the way you arm your miniatures...i love fluff...and let it be known right here and now!!...Flayed 0ne would rather play a fluffy army than a competative one!

:ireful2:

...now all THAT being said....im not the kind of chump to take alittle shit talking too seriously, but i am the sort of chump thats gonna say something if you insinuate something about me thats wrong...i will stand up for myself, thats just the way i am...but im good natured enough not to hold a grudge...

peace Baron...not everyone is out to get you with thier spooky competative lists!!....some people DO like this hobby for reasons other than "winning games"...thats why i posted in this friggen thread to begin with!

:drinks:

 

I agree with Vaz, what's wrong with playing Counts As?
The Blood Angel Dex might not be a perfect fit for the Night Lords but it's a damn sight better than the current C:CSM.
Obviously, in pure fluff terms, the Dex is all wrong, dante is not a Night Lord and the NL don't have Sanguinary Guard or Death Company, but thats the whole point of 'Counts As'.
You look at the army you like and then try and find the best fit rules wise to represent it, if GW hadn't arsed up the CSM dex then half of this wouldn't be an issue.
Using counts as lists adds more depth to the game, both in play and in terms of fluff.

 

..."I'm not even going to bother" crossed my mind, but bother I shall.

First, indisputably - Iron Hands. All but ignored in the Nilla Dex, they are MUCH better represented by the ability to have the Morlocks via WG in TDA. What's that? Bolt Pistol, Bolter and CCW? Well, I see no reason why they would have abandoned their Pre-Heresy armaments, actually. ThunderWolves? Invent something. Or, don't use them. Whatever.

Secondly - What's the point if you don't cite sources Baron? While I have no allusions about your knowledge of the fluff, you CAN be wrong, and you could lie if you chose, without sources.

Third - All this "Raven Guard use lots of Scouts hurrdurr!!!111!" really pisses me off. Yes, they use a lot of Scouts on missions...that doesn't mean that's their main fighting force, or that that's their only way to fight. In addition, since Companies often act independently, it makes more sense to include NO Scouts than to include a unit or two! It is as likely that the Scout Company is engaged on a different front, or even in a different Sector. Even at that - Vaz raises the perfectly valid assertion that the BA have no more Assault Troops than standard (a stupid piece of contradictory fluff, but there you go) and yet entire armies of BA are usually comprised of Assault Marines. Since the RG use fast-response units, this makes sense. As regards Scout Bikers, an Auspex has no difficulty picking up Bikes whereas horses are more stealthy, which is apparently part of why Rough Riders exist. So, convert your Scout bikes to horses, if you wish to be fluffier. :/

Fourth - Night Lords DO have more Jump Packs, as they INVENTED Raptors, and didn't throw their troops away at the Siege of the Emperor's Palace the way the other Legions (excepting EC) did. Night Lords are masters of dropping a sledgehammer where a needle would suffice - what represents this better than a half-company or more of Jump Troops? Or descending Land Raiders into the heart of the battle?
Fear of the Darkness SCREAMS Night Lords, as does Shield of Sanguinius' - precognitive abilities to avoid harm anyone?

Fifth - Raven Guard Death Company - Corax blah blah clones blah blah went wrong - "I've created a monster!" blah permanently damaged geneseed blah blah.

Sixth - no-one would criticise an Angels of Redemption army with Azrael, a Sons of Orar with Calgar, a Knights of Blood with Dante. If it's fine for Successors listed in the book, why the hell not for others?

Seven - Blood Angels get Scouts as Troops anyway. All they lose on SM is Combat Tactics and Telion.

Eighth - Red Thirst can simply represent the need for the mission to be completed before the enemy can respond in force. Key to guerilla warfare is the ability to get the job done and fuck off before you get your bitch ass kicked by superior numbers/weapons/both. Marines can achieve more when they're focused better on haste...and they wouldn't be the first Marines to lose it a little and not know their own strength when in a hurry...*cough* Davin *cough*

Finally - (for now) - The fluff is a scarf to keep you warm and comfy, while looking stylish...not a noose around the necks of players. No-one ever has the right to dictate to another player what is and isn't fluffy, only what falls within the confines of established fluff. Most of us prefer to deal in absolutes in life, great...but GW deliberately hasn't created their universe that way. It's a huge sandbox...somewhere, maybe there IS a female Marine Chapter. Maybe some Orks really do have Grav Tanks. Maybe there are even Squats somewhere who stick to the old traditions and heritage. And maybe a cruiser full of Heresy-era *insert Legion of choice* really did get lost in the Warp and are good guys who helped out on Bellicas against the Necrons and were secretly taking the Emperor's Swords' equipment to supplement/replace their own and stole armour so that people didn't mistake their heraldry for the enemy.

 

Finally - (for now) - The fluff is a scarf to keep you warm and comfy, while looking stylish...not a noose around the necks of players. No-one ever has the right to dictate to another player what is and isn't fluffy, only what falls within the confines of established fluff. Most of us prefer to deal in absolutes in life, great...but GW deliberately hasn't created their universe that way. It's a huge sandbox...somewhere, maybe there IS a female Marine Chapter. Maybe some Orks really do have Grav Tanks. Maybe there are even Squats somewhere who stick to the old traditions and heritage. And maybe a cruiser full of Heresy-era *insert Legion of choice* really did get lost in the Warp and are good guys who helped out on Bellicas against the Necrons and were secretly taking the Emperor's Swords' equipment to supplement/replace their own and stole armour so that people didn't mistake their heraldry for the enemy.

:goodpost: Have some rep.

 

Except the Raven Guard death company idea doesn't work because Corax himself personally slew all the Weregeld.

 

All? Are you certain? :laugh:

You could then just have your army as "Mid-Heresy" era, where they were in use?

 

How about use the Dark Angels codex for the Raven Guard and use Sammael(mounted in his speeder) as the main captain and use loads of bikers and teleport your Terminators where you want them to smash the enemy to pieces before zipping away and attacking the next exposed target and repeating until the enemy is dead.

 

Should I not have Daemonhunters be a counts-as Death Co squad in my Homebrewn BA successor chapter then?

(Daemonhunters and Ad Mech will be attatched to the Chapter, look for Ordo Immortalis in the Homebrewn Fluff section, its all explained.)

 

Uh, I didn't accuse him of lying - the opposite in fact. I just said that if he CHOSE to, he could, and almost certainly get away with it.

Regarding Rubric Marines - it has always been my understanding a breach in the armour causes the dust inside to whirl out of the space like some sort of mystical space typhoon - the armour would then collapse in on itself with the vacuum now created inside, rather than merely falling.

YMMV, because that's what it's all about - Interpretations.

I think generally you will find people who switch to a stronger book with the same models do so because:

a) They could have no fun with an uncompetitive army, and it was that or buy a new army, or quit.
b) They love their army too much to just abandon it, and/or they love the fluff of their army too much to see it get smashed into paste every week in a totally non-representative fashion.

Either way, the 'winning' is unimportant, the important part is the POSSIBILITY of winning.

At it's most basic, it is wholly accurate to say a Necron army will not beat any 5e Codex used by an equally skilled player. MOST people wouldn't like to auto-lose every game...you may be the exception that proves the rule, but I doubt you wouldn't/don't play another army.

 

Uh, I didn't accuse him of lying - the opposite in fact. I just said that if he CHOSE to, he could, and almost certainly get away with it.

Fair enough, but I refute you on saying the Baron could get away with lying if he wanted to. Even if I missed it, you have CotE and AoB lurking around, and Doelago`s pretty good on Imperial Fluff as well. I mean, the Baron`s great, but he is not that good... Not always...

At it's most basic, it is wholly accurate to say a Necron army will not beat any 5e Codex used by an equally skilled player. MOST people wouldn't like to auto-lose every game...you may be the exception that proves the rule, but I doubt you wouldn't/don't play another army.

Three tournament level players I met would disagree at least. It`s not enough to simply be a good player, did you consider list composition, first turn order and most important of all, the dice?

Besides which, comparing one player`s skill level to another`s is sketchy at best. Also, just because BA are a more recent codex than necrons doesn`t make them any less fond of the good ol` Particle Whip. :biggrin:

I will also admit to playing multiple armies, but necrons are my usual tourney list simply because I am accustomed to the familiarity of the codex.

There's a difference between "losing a bit more than normal" and "wriggling around on the ground covered in a fur coat making baby seal noises" which is what playing some of the older codicies basically amounts to.

Just because GW has decided for financial reasons to ignore your codex for years doesn't mean that you should just accept that your most beloved army is terrible and loses 90% of it's games. I'd ask why people don't just say "Screw it, I want to use my army in a competitive fashion and the release schedule for 40k isn't going to stop me" and use another codex to represent them.

If that means that Necron Destroyers have to be represented by Sorcerers on Discs of Tzeentch throwing lightning around, then so be it. And I would love to see it/play it, because that conversion sounds awesome.

Sounds fancy, but I typically find that hardcore competitive gamers are drawn to powered lists regardless of the army`s fluff. Such as aforementioned BA/DA player who bought DA when they got rereleased then switched his list to BA when they came out. I see the douchebag regularly at tourneys, have only played him this one time and did not enjoy the experience at all. My attempts at friendly banter were met with glares of just roll your fucking dice.

I`m not accusing all competitive players of this, but this guy has tainted your reputation as far as I`m concerned. Sorry. :dunno:
Granted we all have differing opinions on the matter,

 

On the TSons - Bill King states that the spirits inhabit the armour of the Rubric Marines, and they just plodded through. However, shooting them in the head would destroy the brain, or basically the physical puppet springs that the spirit would be able to manipulate said rubric. Don't forget that they use to be 2 wounds apiece in 3.5, so wounding them wouldn't make a blind bit of difference.

For my Space Marines army, I say exactly what they are. But fuck it, I'm not playing Apocalypse with a load of skittles - and I have 3 Baal Predators, 2 Mortis Dreadnoughts (although the Rifleman Dread is still actually legal), and I will be upgrading one of my Terminator Squads to Sword Brethren, and possibly also upgrading my other Predators to PotMS Black Templar ones. Why? Because the rules are awesome.

That means that I'll be finding ways to play my Space Marines as Crusader Squads or my Razorbacks as Fast Blood Angels RBacks.

 

That's pretty fair - but jerks are going to be jerks whatever reason they profess to play the game for. As far as I'm concerned, if you don't like any of the fluff, then GW games really aren't what you should be putting your energy into. They're hardly watertight cut-throat games - and you can club baby seals cheaper in other games to, if that's actually what gets you off.

 

Mate, clubbing baby seals min a game can`t compare to doing it for real-

I mean, good points. I guess I should just accept the jerks for who they are and annihilate their lists without fucking around. Seriously, there are few gaming experiences that can compare to destroying a 5E codex list with Necrons! :laugh:

 

Destroying a 5E codex with pure Grey Knights. One of the best tournament players at my local uses Daemonhunters, and it's freaking hilarious (and highly educational) to watch him play against pretty much anything.

 

I'm not with a club. Just at the Sydney Battle Bunker. He could very well be from WSGS, but I wouldn't know.

 

Ah, ok. I rarely visit that one, my usual Visit is the GW at Castle Towers. But I have seen a Grey Knight List at several tourneys over the past couple of years.

I have yet to face it myself though. :spiteful: