Personally i would do it like this.
- Daemonprince: mos, lash, wings
- 5 Thousand sons: sorcerer, WoC, meltabombs, rhino
- 5 CSM: meltagun, rhino

 

Honestly, if you want to win, I would take a Daemon Prince and two squads of Zerkers w/skull champ in rhinos if you have points, and then later when you have the points, take Obliterators, and just keep adding them. Tsons are not as competitive as the other cult choices. Sorcs are not as competitive as Daemon Princes. And no HS in the game is as competitive as Obliterators.

 

And a squad of plague marines, take six per squad with double specials and a fist. Rhino not mandatory for plagues.

Zerkers are in squads of ten, powerfist, rhino with extra armor and nothing else.

In short you have zerkers(maybe magically aided sorceror/battle champs?) and plague marines(empty suits of tzeentch armor, so somehow more survivable?)

Double lashing princes are YOUR ONLY HQ IF YOU WANT TO WIN. PERIOD.
Albeit a warptime one does okay, he doesn't synergize as well.

Tsons are an abortion and will make you lose games, our elite choices dont exist aside from five chosen with guns, our fast attack doesn't exist at all aside from five raptors with double melta(120 worth of "Eff you landraider")

Oblits are your only heavy support option aside from daemon possessed vindicators.

 

i've played chaos for many many years now, and tbh tzeentch has never really done me any favours :threaten: khorne on the other hand is a personal favourite of mine, bezerkers are a bit cheaper than thousand sons, and very, very killy :victory: plus theres a lot of rather sexy kits for khorne on forgeworld, some of those conversion packs look sweet, plus, they'll probably give you an edge on the modelling/painting side of things for the campaign :biggrin:

 

Going to take this chance, as a new player to chaos to say;

SIGN UP FOR KHORNE. We're the true chaos!

Thousand Sons are just too expensive, I find it impossible to run them :|

2 Squads of Thousand Sons = 3 Squads of Khorne Berserkers or Plague marines - Where are much better units (In my opinion)

Visit my Khorne Compendium and Svartmetall's Death Guard and Black Legion Compendiums. (Links are in Relevant signatures)

Think carefully before you swear an alliance to a God; I Think Tzeentch is a Bad Choice.

 

Think carefully before you swear an alliance to a God; I Think Tzeentch is a Bad Choice.

We dont swear allegiance to any gods anymore, not unless LashingDPsChosenZerkersPlaguesOblits are a god. They should be as they're the only good things in the dex.

 

Tzeentch stays I'm afraid.

It looks to be the harder army to build and I like a challenge. It'd be nice to do something other than double lash oblit spam after the campaign and use it as a characterful army once the ZOMGNEEDTOWIN is over.

In small games I really like the idea of an entire army of AP3 guns and a 4+ invul for my entire army. Granted Nurgle has a 4+ uber save too, but AP3... AP3!!! what's not to like?

That and I really want to go to town on a pink and blue army, my test pieces are looking nice and I've painted a shit load of red recently so not feeling the Khorne vibe and Nurgle is my least favourite God.

 

Yeah but remember when you say a whole army of them. You'll struggle to afford more than 2 troops choices in 1500.

If 2 squads roughly costs 700 points... 2 Troops in 1500 is tragic to say the least.

 

yeah but I like to win via the 2 greatest words in the English language.......
DE FAULT!

I win when you have no men left.

besides, I have some awesome ideas for Tzeentch bikes and Raptors I want to make and I love the idea of a fullt themed army just for looks.

For the campaign though, anything goes. I'm quite partial to the early idea from Lord Waffles about Tzeentchyfying zerkers or plague marines.


So far from all your bickering I have gathered the following :biggrin: (Tzeentch loves it when you bicker)

1: HQ = Daemon Prince... end of story. I'd Imagine Ahriman is rather hard in larger games though

2: Zerkers are awesome and must somehow be included

3: HS choices should be maxed out on Oblit's.... possessed Vindicator is an acceptable alternative.

4: I'm nuts for planning a thousand sons army as they are way too expensive. Are they actually over pointed though for what they do? Surely a pair of 9 man sons units in 1500 holding objectives while other stuff molests the enemy is pretty good?


EDIT: the master plan I was aiming for in the looks department in 3k is this

Ahriman
DP warptime + stuff

9 Tsons
9 Tsons
9 Tsons
9 Tsons
9 Tsons (maybe tzeentched up zerkers)
9 Tsons (maybe Tzeenthed up plague marines)

9 Possessed
9 Bikers
9 Raptors

9 Squads of 9 with assorted upgrades

 

yeah but I like to win via the 2 greatest words in the English language.......
DE FAULT!

I win when you have no men left.

The sad part here is that ard boyz had a gametype in the second round where even if you tabled somebody you didnt massacre unless you held objectives.

besides, I have some awesome ideas for Tzeentch bikes and Raptors I want to make and I love the idea of a fullt themed army just for looks.

For the campaign though, anything goes. I'm quite partial to the early idea from Lord Waffles about Tzeentchyfying zerkers or plague marines.


So far from all your bickering I have gathered the following :biggrin: (Tzeentch loves it when you bicker)

1: HQ = Daemon Prince... end of story. I'd Imagine Ahriman is rather hard in larger games though

2: Zerkers are awesome and must somehow be included

3: HS choices should be maxed out on Oblit's.... possessed Vindicator is an acceptable alternative.

4: I'm nuts for planning a thousand sons army as they are way too expensive. Are they actually over pointed though for what they do? Surely a pair of 9 man sons units in 1500 holding objectives while other stuff molests the enemy is pretty good?

Let me start off by saying I love, love, love themed armies and will forgive any army makeup if they look good. But yeah what you may want to do is like hollow out some of the tzeentch boy bodies, create like damaged suits with a painted glow coming from the inside for the plague marine look alikes. Have the fluff be something like these suits are held together by the very force of tzeentchs might and only the strongest cannon or densest torrent of gunfire can fell one completely.

For the 'zerked tzeentch boys, you could have an entire troupe of sorcerors that have all perma cast a smaller version of 'warptime' on themselves. They see everything slower during the charge, hence the additional I, WS, and since they can pick where they strike, addition S on the charge. Iunno, I always thought chaos armies always looked better without forcing god troops down peoples throat, rather have the marines exemplify that force(tzeentch: ignore magic attacks with invul, khorne:battle champion, nurgle: hardcore survivers, slaanesh:uuuh...)

Ahriman would be fine if his spells didn't blow. His biggest problem is that he didn't pull his spell from slaanesh. Lash makes you win games more than the other spells.

Putting a final cap on the TSon argument, you are paying for a model that has two things going for it over the generic bolter marine(You dont get two attacks base either like a chaos marine would).
The first being ap3 bolters. This sounds amazing, double tap a squad of marines and kill them all? Awesome! The problem comes in where this is coverhammer 40k, it is hard as hell to catch anyone out of cover who does not want to be there. And a 4+ while worse than a 3+ is still only fifty percent casualties, which isn't what you paid for.

The other amazing thing they have is a 4+ invulnerable save. This works while they get shot at, and in CC against big gribblies. The first would work fine, but again this is coverhammer, we already have a 4+ cover save at all times from existing on the board. And invuls in CC? While this means they last longer, it only really exists to make them an expensive tarpit unit, since you only swing first and don't have access to powertoys beyond the aspiring sorceror you're REALLY hoping that sorc hits and wounds for all three swings, otherwise you get pasted. Plus any large volleys of wounds kill tsons just as fast as a normal marine.

So in short you're paying, if I remember correctly, like 300 for a full squad of nine of them plus the sorceror. This squad has no long range capabilities outside the sorc if you buy him that power. So basically you're a tac squad with an ap3 bolter, and 4+ invul save, these benefits cost you a marine and a half. They're just too expensive and don't fill a role the army doesn't already have covered.

Zerks murder anything with armor 3+(as do double plasma PMs), and the 4+ cover save we always get fixes the 4+ invul at range, and as for CC? The tsons would eventually lose, while the zerks or PMs might actually win. Hope this might shed some more light.

Ahriman
DP warptime + stuff

9 Tsons
9 Tsons
9 Tsons
9 Tsons
9 Tsons (maybe tzeentched up zerkers)
9 Tsons (maybe Tzeenthed up plague marines)

9 Possessed
9 Bikers
9 Raptors

9 Squads of 9 with assorted upgrades

possessed, bikers, and raptors are all things you may not want to include if you plan competitive games, neither are ahriman and the tsons.

 

wow, thats a lot of nines but i must say, tzeentched up zerkers? i like i tip my metaphorical hat to you sir :laugh:

 

I love the ide of Thousand Sons so my army will definitely be Tzeentchian.

stick to your guns, play what you like and never let anyone any where that the only way to win with a codex is by a single list.

Personally i would do it like this.
- Daemonprince: mos, lash, wings
- 5 Thousand sons: sorcerer, WoC, meltabombs, rhino
- 5 CSM: meltagun, rhino

this is the best piece of advice you've gotten so far. if you're having to meet the FOC rules, this is what i would go with. you could try to drop the melta gun on the CSM for a flamer, and drop the meltabombs and rhino on the TSons for maybe one or more TSons, but that's bouncing ideas around, and Kroldrup's set up is pretty good for what you're wanting to do.

good hunting.

 

Don't Change Your Ways.

Whizzwang, first if your going pure Tzzentch, then stick it with it.

Don't add in a Slaneesh sorcerer (however tempting it might be), go for a Tzzentch one instead.

Here's what I'd run for that first 500 points.

HQ: Tzzentch Sorcerer with Doombolt - 140 points.

5 Chaos Marines, Meltagun, Champion with Powerfist, Rhino - 160 points.

5 Thousand Sons, Sorcerer with Doombolt, Rhino - 197 points.

You've got a legal list which is flexible. Later on you can expand these squads and add in an Icon of Tzzentch to the Chaos Marines (don't slag these guys off. I've got a squad of them myself and they've survived a direct hit from a Vindicator).

Now I know you play Orks and your new to Chaos Marines, but a lot of people will tell you that unless you go for the holy quartet of Plague Marines, Lash Prince, Berzerkers and Obliterators you don't stand a chance.

This is bollocks! Chaos Marines have plenty of competitive units and ultimately it comes down to how you play them. If you want to go for a Thousand Sons list, then do it.

My only proviso would be to include at least of Tzzentch Chaos Space Marines with a Powerfist-toting champion for a bit of anti-tank. That and give one of your aspiring sorcerers the Bolt of Change psychic power.

 

The Sullen One is 100% correct as is Kurrent. Besides a difference in taste (I'd run a Tzeentch DP over the PF carrying Champ) there isn't much more to say.

Winning without bowing to the god of LashingDPsChosenZerkersPlaguesOblits isn't as easy, but it is totally doable and will earn more respect then paying homage to the Min/Max god.

I'd play something like:

HQ: Tzeentch Daemon Prince with MoT, Wings, Warptime - 170 points.

5 Chaos Marines, Meltagun, Rhino - 120 points.

5 Thousand Sons, Sorcerer with Doombolt, Rhino - 197 points.

In my experience a Warptime Prince who ignores 50% of the attacks made against them is good. Wings makes it that much better.

Keep us updated on where you're taking the army.

 

but the lash is so nice

Cheers for all the advice, especially the couple of constructive posts there at the end.

I'll go 100% Tzeentch throughout, I may not win 'em, all, but I'll look damn good while I fail!

 

Good for you! There's nothing I can't stand more than people who say "run this or YOU LOSE!" and that only 10% of a codex should even be considered. Nothing is so useless that it should be completely crossed out of its respective codex. Granted, some things don't have MANY uses, and those uses don't always end up actually occurring in a game.... but everything has some use somewhere... except for Dark Eldar. :laugh:

The trick is to exploit the advantages of whatever you choose to stick with as much as you can. For example, for your Tzeentch Princes, one of the best psychic powers they can take is Gift of Chaos.

I play very Undivided/Mixed God lists, and I've actually recently stopping running my princes as Lash Princes, since my friends are now usually counting on it. After a little experimenting, I've pretty much converted to using Tzeentch princes with Gift + something else (usually Bolt of Change, sometimes Warptime) even if I'm NOT going for Tzeentch theme.

Why Gift? Well, it's usable in CC, doesn't count as shooting so you don't have to assault who you use it on, it's frickin hilarious to make Eldar players cry when you insta-gib their Farseers without their precious inv save rerolls (or even a Hive Tyrant if you roll a 6!)... oh, and because Mark of Tzeentch lets you do it TWICE!

On a non-Tzeentch Prince, Gift isn't nearly reliable or destructive enough to take as your only psychic power IMO. It's devastating in the right situation, but only works 1/3 of the time against two of the most common armies played (Space Marines and Orks,) has a short range, and has to be used before you move. By itself it's kind of lame... but with Mark of Tzeentch it becomes a LOT better. Being able to take both it and another, more reliable power makes it a lot more forgiving to take that "what the hell" shot at turning a Warboss into a Chaos Spawn, not to mention being able to do it twice while locked in close combat makes that 5+ roll against SM and Ork armies twice as likely to happen.

 

Good for you! There's nothing I can't stand more than people who say "run this or YOU LOSE!" and that only 10% of a codex should even be considered. Nothing is so useless that it should be completely crossed out of its respective codex. Granted, some things don't have MANY uses, and those uses don't always end up actually occurring in a game.... but everything has some use somewhere... except for Dark Eldar. :laugh:

Sacrilege! Dark Eldar are awesome! They have Ravagers and Wyches and....Ravagers....

OK fine.

I've actually been doing the same thing with my DPs of late, though I'm more of a Warptime/Shooty power guy myself.

 

what about deep striking terminator sorcerer? gets you rather close, rather fast, oh yeah, and a 2+ save too

 

as I recall the odds for Zogwort (same sort of dice roll)

It works out you have a 40% chance of nailing your opponent in a 1v1 dice off, those odds become much better if you get a second chance.

the rhino and a bodyguard of 4+ invul guys gets him in range by my reckoning, especially in very small games.

I'm sold on the idea tbh, especially since the games will be so small my opponent will be running at me too.

 

also remember, because TS's have Slow and purposeful you may only move D6 but you can single shot your bolters 24" after you do so

and they are so epic they dont even need cover x3

4++ is going to make Pie-platers cry

AP3 is going to rape everything from marines to guardsmen

and power to you for sticking iwth your guns ^.^

also i think its bolt of change that makes a spawn? Gift of chaos isnt a shooting power x3 so may be used more then once by anything (including sorcs)

the only thing you may lack is some anti tank, but youll have anti infantry down square :3

as much as i love Khorne, i think Tzeentch has real potential

 

also remember, because TS's have Slow and purposeful you may only move D6

2D6 til the scorcerererer dies isn't it? Then 1D6

 

One other thing to keep in mind when tooling up your Daemon Princes is that Warptime can be cast in both your turn and then in your opponents turn (and no you don't need MoT to do this). This is HUGE. Its one reason that I personally take warptime over lash. A non-marked warptime prince is the same cost as a lash prince, with imo much more functionality. You aren't limited to sitting back and setting up other squads. That said, I prefer a Nurgle WT DP for the toughness, and if you have the points, the damage output of a Tzeentch WT/WoC DP can't be matched. WT DPs can be fully utilized every turn of every game. You just can't say that of Lash, and that doesn't sit well with me.

I'm big on competitive lists, but I'm not sold on Lash being the be all end all.

 

This has turned into a really cool thread guys and I have to thank you for it. Lots of really cool input, which I'll be honest, I wasn't expecting as I've shied away from Chaos until recently due to the tidal wave of "we've been screwed" posts.

Wasn't til I picked the book up for a proper read I saw all the awesome choices.

I'm tempted to project blog the army, but I paint fast so there won't ever be start -> work so far -> complete type bloggage, I buy, open, paint, base, finish in the same afternoon.


I'll see what I can do as I'm seriously itching to get this army up and running now.

 

I am no expert but lash has limited effect against mech lists. If your opponent shows up with everything inside armor then there will be limited lash benefit initially.

 

I wish people would stop exaggerating. A squad of 11 zerks with a champ and a pf is 271pts
For almost the same price you get 9 tsons with bolt of change.269pts
Ok its 2 models but it is not the end of the world. The thing is tsons get more points efficient in larger numbers. Due to the expense of the sorcerer. The squad above i run in my current 2000pt list. With kharn and 2 squads of zerks.

 

I wish people would stop exaggerating. A squad of 11 zerks with a champ and a pf is 271pts

No... You get 8 'Zerkers in a Rhino with a Champ and a powerfist for 258. Who really runs 11 'Zerkers out of a Rhino.

So don't try and make out that TSons aren't overpriced by comparing it to a unit that isn't EVER run.

Fact of the matter is I play a Tzeentch guy constantly, and My Khorne win everytime.

4++ Invulnerable is good, But the fact is 2x Battlecannon still makes you lose 100+ Points a turn.

I admit a 4++ DP is good, but when there is nothing else scary in the list, OBVIOUSLY it's going to be priority #1

Take that down and your left facing models with a max range of 24, walking at a max speed of 6" a turn. Which is when i kick it with a drink, and just unload everything on them, and wait for the charge.

Every Thread needs someone opposing, seeing as how your all wanking off Tzeentch right now, I just thought I'd be the ass who opposes.

 

I can see the issue with spawns "providing wounds" with a Sorcerer, but if you're doing it with a Prince both he and whatever spawns he makes are Fearless anyway, so even if they technically lose combat it really doesn't matter. Even if it doesn't live long enough to attack, if they direct attacks at the spawn instead of the prince, that's helping the prince survive that much longer--it's still T5 with 3 wounds, so it'll still take either multiple power fist hits or some relatively lucky rolls to kill immediately. It might give them Victory Points, but I thought most of the time those were only used for tie breakers anyway.

And countering another list isn't always just about what you bring, it's what you do with it. Lash doesn't help much when you need to move the enemy more than around 7" to get them into a good position, so putting those space wolf long fangs on the top floor of a 3 story building pretty much makes them lash-proof, for instance.

For the Bloodthirster example, it's more along the lines of 2 1 in 6 chances of Spawning it just before running the hell away, since you use Gift before your movement anyway. Perhaps a better example would have been virtually any Special Character, a Farseer, a Trygon--something big and nasty and expensive and usually hard to kill.

As for the us military analogy, yes, I actually do think we're playing right into their hands and should do something completely different, but I'll save that discussion for another time and place.

 

back on topic guys, Tzeentch demands focus!

the games i'll be playing will be 500, 750, 1000, 1250 in that order.

Currently trying to build the 500pt force so baninging on about "10 of this for nearly 300 points" isn't really helpful at the moment.

And having run the maths on the God specific squads, the difference in number of men is negligible (not so much at low points granted, but still not really worth arguing about)


So, the topic.

is there an improvement on the below in 500. Remember the rules, the Tsons have to be included.

= DP + MoT, wings, gift
= 5 Tsons + wind of chaos, rhino (yeah I know doombolt rocks, but I see Wind being a game winner when there's not a lot on the table)
= 5 Undivided, melta, rhino

 

= DP + MoT, wings, gift
= 5 Tsons + wind of chaos, rhino (yeah I know doombolt rocks, but I see Wind being a game winner when there's not a lot on the table)
= 5 Undivided, melta, rhino

I like that. The only thing I would change would be Gift of Chaos to Warptime. Really though, that is just preference.

 

waffles stop assuming your opponent is always going to be in cover. This will played in a store, where multiple tables will be requiring the use of the store's limited terrain anyway, not to mention if you DO use lash you can drag them out of it anyway.

 

But his point is your NOT using lash.

Which is another addition to MY point that Tzeentch sucks :3

 

This is a good Tzeentchian based list. Winds may be an unexpected win for you.

I'd say CC lists, IG Vendetta lists (or blob), and MC heavy lists could hurt you.

That beiing said I'd consider the S8 psyker power (Bolt of Change? Don't have my codex on me) for more range. Winds does give you a better chance to glance and good chances to wound high Toughness creatures but you're lacking range. Just a thought.

good hunting.

 

you're lacking range. Just a thought

Yeah, this is my main concern, I'm hoping as the first game will be so small it won't be objective based so my opponent's will be more mobile.

first test game this week to see if my idea pans out