Indeed man

Sanguinius. It should have been him. He has the vision and strength to carry us to victory, and the wisdom to rule once victory is won. For all his aloof coolness, he alone has the Emperor's soul in his blood. Each of us carries part of our father within us, whether it is his hunger for battle, his psychic talent or his determination to succeed. Sanguinius holds it all. It should have been his...

Sanguineous was basically the man. Horus very possibly would have lost to him in single combat if he were not aided by the dark gods, and he certainly would have been damaged much more than he was. In addition, if you look at the above quote we see just another example of the "traitors" grudging admiration for Sanguineous.

 

In other news water is wet...

Seriously what did you expect? In Horus Rising angel boy is mentioned to be second only to Horus in the eyes of the Emperor and many were surprised he wasn't made Warmaster instead.

 

That doesn't really sound like it's suggesting he was strong, more like he was favored by the emperor.

 

He was also blessed with Foresight. Quite handy to see the future in battle. But the Blood Angel 5th Ed codex says Sanguinius might have been a match for Horus, in his prime. Remember he had his legs broken by Ka'Bandha prior to fighting Horus. So Sanguinius was weakened and Horus had become stronger. And had the arena allowed for flight I can see why other Primarchs feared him.

 

At least they keep the theme consistent.

From Deliverance Lost:

From Captain Noriz of the Imperial Fists while discussing with Branne who will kill Horus, "No, when the Blood Angels here of this treachery, there'll be no stopping Sanguinius. Lord Dorn calls him the Angel of Death, and I can't imagine Fulgrim, Perturabo, Lorgar or any of the others wanting to step between Horus and the Angel's vengeance. It'll be Sanguinius, mark my words."

 

Sanguinius is stronger than Horus.

What if Signus Prime and the Battle at the Gates were just a setup to up the playing field for Sanguinius' final Battle.

What if even then Sanguinius actually mortally wounds Horus?

What if that too was a setup by Chaos to finally get enough leverage over Horus to completely turn his to Chaos ( Primodial Annhialator ).

What if this was a setup by the Sigilite and this was the Choice he was talking about in the Audio book. And this was done by the Sigilite cause he believed just like him the Emperor doesn't blame Horus for all this unless he is completely taken over?
And thus this was to make sure the Emperor doesn't hold back?

 

Sanguinius is stronger than Horus.

What made you come to that conclusion?

 

...what if Nashnir is an agent of the Alpha Legion sent here to confuse us all with 'what ifs'?

 

Seems likely. To arms, my brother?

 

Well I don't think any primarch is "greater" then any other primarch, however I do believe some primarchs were superior in direct combat. That being said it seems both the loyalist and traitors perceived Sanguinius as top dog, if not one of the top dogs along with Angron. However through the entire Betrayer book it constantly keeps referencing to how Angron has been degenerating through the years, both mentally and physically.

Particularly when it is referencing Angrons fight with Russ and his legion in the past, that Angron's speech and perspective on life was much more coherent, clear, and logical. Compare that to his speech patterns during the siege of the Utlramarines worlds, coupled with the fact that he would start bleeding from the nose/eyes/mouth while speaking with people goes to show that he truly was not as strong as he was when he was first found.

On another note I found it fascinating how "powerful" Lorgar had become in his use of psyker powers in direct combat. It seems his area of expertise is telekenisi, as he was able to rip storm birds apart in the air, knock titans (by hurling objects at them at super-sonic speeds), as well as crush squads of ultramarines effortlessly. Additionally it seems he was able to use his telekenisis to form Barriers/force fields around himself as he was effortlessly nullifying bolters, and cannon fire that was hitting him, he even blocked a direct Warhound Plasma cannon charge by extending his hand towards the incoming blast.

Lorgar in terms of power, confidence, and assertion of his own self was so different then pre Istvaan that even Horus stated "I stopped trusting you once you started to change, once you assaulted me upon my ship, once you and your astartes boarded fulgrims flag ship and threatened him, etc."

I really have enjoyed how the writers of the Horus heresy have taken the time to balance out all the primarchs so there truly isnt a situation of "Primarch A is superior to primarch B in a fight".

As Kharn put it, some legions excelled in winning battles while others excelled in winning wars. Discipline wins wars, but unchained ferocity wins battles.This was in regards when he compared the discipline of the ultramarines to the ferocity of the world eaters.

 

Well I don't think any primarch is "greater" then any other primarch, however I do believe some primarchs were superior in direct combat. That being said it seems both the loyalist and traitors perceived Sanguinius as top dog, if not one of the top dogs along with Angron.

Horus was the greatest Primarch. The lore has always been consistent in that fact.

Lorgar, in his apparent (though not infallible) wisdom, claimed that only two could stand against Sanguinius "once he fights with nothing left to lose." Those two, of course, being Horus and Angron. Sanguinius, in this case, and in most cases, is usually talked about in terms of potential. When he has nothing left to lose; when all his lost; his vengeance; and his wrath are common phrases used in that regard. When he fought at the Eternity Gate, it was in a very different state-of-mind to that he fought with during the wars of the Great Crusade. I guess my point is that it's not just about "who is the better or more capable fighter?" it's also about mind-set and circumstance. Sanguinius at the Eternity Gate was at his most dangerous, his most volatile. That concealed instability and anger is what the others are referring to when they refer to Sanguinius's wrath being so terrible to behold.

However through the entire Betrayer book it constantly keeps referencing to how Angron has been degenerating through the years, both mentally and physically.

Though, does that mental degeneration make him even more volatile and dangerous? Food for thought.

 

Lorgar may have told Horus that only he and Angron had a chance to come out alive against the Sanguinias in order to plant doubt in Horus about his own prowess (as Horus would figure he would have to face Sang before the Emperor) and make him more open to allowing the dark gods more control over him in exchange for more power.

 

I disagree with OP....Every p was a bit same on the power level,and some of them had their skills honed elswere....To misuse that Corax sentence every time "Which primarch was the strongest" thread appears is ludacris....

 

The idea of power levels is "ludicrous" in itself; even more so than the idea they were all at the same level. The Warmaster was obviously favoured, and learned more off the Emperor than any other character; while Alpharius learned directly from the Warmaster and became his man, in a way (or Alpharius let Horus believe that). Rogal Dorn would have greater access to the Emperor's records regarding siege conflict than any other Primarch; putting Angron in charge of the defence of Terra, while comical, would have been useless.

Each had their strengths, and without coming across as "The Bank Job"; however, some are clearly ideally suited for particular jobs, while others are better at others. They cannot be correlated, while only the Mary-sue foo of Graham McNeil and his Magnus/Horus/Perturabo/Made up character #2342522352352 is capable of such feats of omnipotence far above what level everyone else sets out.

 

The idea of power levels is "ludicrous" in itself; even more so than the idea they were all at the same level. The Warmaster was obviously favoured, and learned more off the Emperor than any other character; while Alpharius learned directly from the Warmaster and became his man, in a way (or Alpharius let Horus believe that). Rogal Dorn would have greater access to the Emperor's records regarding siege conflict than any other Primarch; putting Angron in charge of the defence of Terra, while comical, would have been useless.

Each had their strengths, and without coming across as "The Bank Job"; however, some are clearly ideally suited for particular jobs, while others are better at others. They cannot be correlated, while only the Mary-sue foo of matt ward. and his Magnus/Horus/Perturabo/Made up character #2342522352352 is capable of such feats of omnipotence far above what level everyone else sets out.

Sorry that spelling mistake was bugging me.

To me it makes no sense for all primarchs to be equal. After all does to make sense for all primarchs to be perfect at siege warfare? in the 40K universe a varity of skills are needed.

 

I think the point is that they're equal overall, but have specific gifts and talents that exceed the others. Though even that is questionable...

 

Some primarchs are good at one thing, while other primarchs are good at the opposite, almost as if they were meant to cancel each other out. Dorn is good at building and fortifying, Perturabo is good at siege warfare for example. JAMOBs post seems the most evident in the books. Each has a specific gift/talent, but they are all, more or less, equal. At least during the pre-heresy period.

 

Perturabo is good at building.

Although that's Graham McNeil, so if you have any sort of objective way of looking at his writing, you'll see his view doesn't really count. Look at his portrayal of the Iron Hands and the Raven Guard *durpohshitubersniperlololololol1440noscopeclutchernoh4x*.

 

You should also look at his portrayal of the ultramarines.

That more than makes up for his short comings.

 

Seriously? I despise his Ultramarines series. I don't mind Angel Exterminatus, quite enjoyed it in fact, but can easily see why people wouldn't like it. Thousand Sons is the only novel that I've thought was very, very good, up there near the top in fact, Fulgrim is also pretty good, though I do remember it feeling a bit slow at times when I first read it.

 

Seriously? I despise his Ultramarines series. I don't mind Angel Exterminatus, quite enjoyed it in fact, but can easily see why people wouldn't like it. Thousand Sons is the only novel that I've thought was very, very good, up there near the top in fact, Fulgrim is also pretty good, though I do remember it feeling a bit slow at times when I first read it.

Aw, did you going into your room decorated like gulliman's chamber wearing your ultramarine footie jammies with a nice glass of milk and cookies in a matching ultramarine set expecting the ultramarine's to destroy chaos resurrect gulliman and then make him emperor?

His portrayal of the ultramarines shows that their method of warfare is flaws. Three characters in his series learn that following the codex isn't always the best option.

 

Even worse; The Outcast Dead.

 

I dunno, I really, really hate Fear to Tread. Though The Outcast Dead isn't all that far behind. I suppose I don't hate it that much as it wasn't such a monumentally key event like Signus was.

 

This thread was enlightening. I always had Sanguinius pegged as a pussy. :crazy:

 

Why would you think that? Is it that he is often portrayed in a elegant fashion when it comes to his demeanor?

 

The Tau Empire are indeed powerful and growing in power. But the codex is imo, still to vast and adaptable to be understood and combated accordingly. For instance, the Tau could know that if the Ultramarines are doing 'x' attack, then they can counter it with 'y', but the Ultramarines could then counter this again with a whole host of other options, too many for the Tau or any enemy to have prepared for. They are by no means unbeatable and the Codex isn't infallible by any means. But if the Codex could be understood and taken advantage of in such a way, I'm sure the Eldar, never mind the Tau would have figured it out by now.

 

An example of the size of the Codex- Space Marines have as near to an eidetic memory as possible but it still requires each Marine memorising as much as they can of it for a Company to retain the entire Codex Astartes.

If it takes 100 guys with photographic memories to remember something then you know it's probably going to be a dauntingly large body of text.

 

Honestly I'm starting to get confused, If 100 space marines can memorize the entire codex astartes. Then why can't an entire race, who fought against the space marines allot and seems to have the technology to do allot find a way to study the codex.

 

How exactly are they going to get hold of the codex to study it? Marines don't just go carrying it around. And there's just no way they could feasiably test every single variable against the Marines and have it all documented. They've got glimpses of it at best, and even then there's nothing that says they even copied it down correctly, could quite easily of misunderstood what action the Marines took. To me it would be like hearing a select number of quotes from a very large novel, some of the quotes not quoted verbatim, and then trying to put them all on paper to copy the novel.

 

They've got to carry the Codex around with them, or else how else would they know they meet FoC requirements and have the requisite point values?

 

Lux loves him some Primarch power-levels.

Haven't read Betrayer, but Manguinius wank is always a delight.

 

Not that he is my favorite primarch, but Magnus could have killed Sang.... or any other primarch for that matter. Yes I know he went down to the Wolf King, but I am betting the reason was because the null maidens were around dampening his power. The guy blasted a titan out of existance with one shot PRE corruption.

Horus even remarked in "Galaxy in Flames" that he thought of Magnus as being his second biggest threat... only slightly less dangerous than the Emp. himself.

Oh, and if no one mentioned it yet. Don't forget the reason Sang wasn't much of a fight for Horus is because he had just banished the Grandaddy of all Bloodthirsters and was injured for it. It would have been an interesting fight if Dorn and Sang had found Horus at the same time.

 

Not that he is my favorite primarch, but Magnus could have killed Sang.... or any other primarch for that matter. Yes I know he went down to the Wolf King, but I am betting the reason was because the null maidens were around dampening his power. The guy blasted a titan out of existance with one shot PRE corruption

I would have loved that to have been the case but apparently not only is Russ super cunning, super disciplined, super good at close combat, super tactical, super ferocious, super good at controlling his ferocity, super good at pretending to be a barbarian...on top of all that, he's also an anti-psyker who reflects psychic attacks back at the source! Heck, he hurts psykers just by yelling! I really hope BL explores some of his other hidden strengths. I'm really excited!

 

Both Magnus and Russ are seen as two of the biggest threats to Horus actually, as per Prospero Burns, hence why the gods put so much time, effort and manipulation into making sure they took each other out of the game. And even then Magnus almost totally fucked it up for them by not committing till the last second, leaving a lot more of the VI Legion standing than they wanted.

I don't think it was anything to do with the Sisters of Silence when Russ took down Magnus. As we saw when Auramagma tried to attack him, Russ himself, his armour, runes or a combination of all three evidently gave him a great deal of warding against psychic powers.

 

Good point, he did have that kind of effect on the 1000 sons.

You got me to thinking with your post though (something off topic). I wonder how well Angron would do against the Emperor. I think he would be esp. suited to kill the Emperor. I say that because of the special ability Khorne gave Kharn - he is immune to psychic powers. If Angron's right hand man has that ability how much more would Khorne bless Angron?

W/o his psychic ability the Emperor would have to fight on Angron's terms.

 

Khorne had just as much reason to protect Horus as he would have Angron...

 

Angron is handicapped the moment he leaves the safety of the Eye and the warp, his power draining every moment he spend in the materium. Grey Knight Brother-Captain Aurellian killed Angron on Armageddon, with his force weapon, chanelling both his own powers and the remaining Knights still alive. So Angron is evidently susceptible to psychic powers, at least outside of the Warp. But even then within the Warp, I still think the Emperor would be able to harm him.

 

I understand the need of the Ultramarines and their codex giving head to a new take on war away from Horus.

But I just think thats too hard to do and every time I hear an author trying to explain it, it kind of gets on my nerves. With the stage of technology that the 40k world has, there is only so much that tactic will do. Thats why I admire Horus' style of fighting during the Great Crusade. The way he coordinated attacks directly reflected his use of technology with a combination of skills. This codex thing is kind of a mockery. 1000 marines with a book... never bought into that. Never even really looking at the flaws of it.

One of the fundamental reasons I think its flawed is based off how the Ultramarines actually win their battles. They win them by being nitty gritty. They fight just as good as bezerkers. The Battle of Calth and the Ultramarines series, you see the fights not favoring the Ultramarines.... but in the end... they fight just as hard as anyone. Even though being outmatched, and not known for their close combat skills. It just is. In the heat of the fight, there are no skills referred to, just the Ultramarine getting lucky and overcoming adversity. But that is with all battles.

I think the authors do a good job of showing chaos and the gritty parts that change the name of the game. But when they actually come to those parts... the codex is unexplainable and unbelievable to even try to put into the gritty battles. The Ultramarines just overcome... I think thats bull. I would rather the fluff explain how much more equipped and supported their astartes are than that codex crap. Because as far as the codex goes... all we can do is just buy into it. And thats hard to do when your not an Ultramarines fan.

 

I understand the need of the Ultramarines and their codex giving head to a new take on war away from Horus.

But I just think thats too hard to do and every time I hear an author trying to explain it, it kind of gets on my nerves. With the stage of technology that the 40k world has, there is only so much that tactic will do. Thats why I admire Horus' style of fighting during the Great Crusade. The way he coordinated attacks directly reflected his use of technology with a combination of skills. This codex thing is kind of a mockery. 1000 marines with a book... never bought into that. Never even really looking at the flaws of it.

One of the fundamental reasons I think its flawed is based off how the Ultramarines actually win their battles. They win them by being nitty gritty. They fight just as good as bezerkers. The Battle of Calth and the Ultramarines series, you see the fights not favoring the Ultramarines.... but in the end... they fight just as hard as anyone. Even though being outmatched, and not known for their close combat skills. It just is. In the heat of the fight, there are no skills referred to, just the Ultramarine getting lucky and overcoming adversity. But that is with all battles.

On and off topic : The codex is merely a guide (not a big ultramarine fan). To think in our time soldiers still reference Sun Tzu, and his principles of warfare still apply. He didn't shoot a rifle but he has change the way we react to things. It's a manual. Even Guilliman ( or however you spell it) says sometimes the codex won't cut it.

The thing is I don't even know why Khorne would care. He doesn't care from whence the blood flows, as long as it flows.

And the part where Sang is second first or whatever strongest. They meant against what was left of the loyalist primarchs. I don't remember who said it but it comes down to seeing every primarch has a strength. As a unified force they would fuck shit up. Unaugmented (no demons or anything) they all would put up a pretty good fight against one another.