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Discussion Starter #1
My friend swears that wraithlords and wraithguard count as daemons, DH wise. I'm not so sure. I looked at the entry under daemons, and, though it mentions eldar avatars, there is no mention of wraith anything. He still says that they are though, and I'm wondering if this was addressed anywhere else?
 

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Executive Nitpicker
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Nope, only the Avatar counts as a daemon.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
THanks, that's what I thought. Sucks though, would have loved to load up on a daemonhammer, grimoire of true names, holy incense, familiar and warrior henchmen and be like,

"Yeah, I'm attacking your wraithlord, and by the way, his WS is halved. And he loses one initiative. Basically, I just turned your wraithlord into a space marine. And my thunder hammer strikes with initiative. And uhh...guess who's got the higher initiative?" :mrgreen:

Ahh well, will just have to do that to his avatar then.
 

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Executive Nitpicker
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Just bring sniper scouts if he wants to tote around a wraithlord.
10 guys, infiltrating, hitting on 2+, wounding on 4+ and suddenly your W3 T8 model is in trouble. Especially if you toss in a krak missile in place of one of the sniper shots, and maybe a powerfist vet.
 

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Porn King!!!
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Unless I am mistaken, the Avatar is actually listed as a daemon in the new Eldar codex whereas the Wraithlord/guard are not. Unless a unit/model is listed as such, it does not count as a daemon in any way.
 

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Jac "Baneblade" O'Bite
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From a fluff point of veiw it doesn't make any sense either as the Wraithlord/Guard are basically Soul powered machines. Very complex and organic ones but they are still have Eldar souls within them. They arn't self manifesting.
 

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But they aren't made out of pure warpstuff.

That seems to be the common thread. Daemons are all formed out of the warp. Essentially made of magic. The avatar works in much the same way. He's manifested on this plane but exists in another and his body is magical.

Meanwhile the wraithlords/guards may have a magical aspect, but they're not from the warp, not made of magic, etc. They're machines with a spark of soul trapped inside, but that's not really very different than Dreadnoughts. Only difference is, Eldar store the soul in a gem and humans store it in a lump of preserved flesh.

If you think about it, aren't living beings very complex, organic, soul-powered machines?

Thousand Sons are merely walking suits of armor animated by magic and filled with dust. They're not daemons.

Plague Marines are barely more than zombies. Walking, disease-bloated corpses held together by foul chaos magic...but they're not daemons.

People, dreads, wraithguard, even thousand sons and plague marines all have one thing in common:
At one point in time they were born on this plane. They come from here, not from the other side. GK rules are all about banishing daemons back to where they came fron, severing their connection with this plane.

But these souls and beings don;t come from there. You can't send them back.

Daemon Princes and Spawn are the exception as theyve given themselves over by chaos so absolutely.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Well yeah, but the Imperium does have a tendancy to label anything it doesn't understand to be chaotic.

The scouts are a good idea, I'll add them to my list. I'll also take my Vindicaire: I love him so very much!

He's only ever played with wraithlords once, (twice?) but I know he's going to take an avatar, because A: he knows that model pisses me off and B: It makes all of his units fearless. So yeah.
 

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wraitsh just have to be encounteres like a tank (with 3 wounds) i wish there was a way to give them an invuln save, but i guess that would overpower them.

gl with his avatar. rock that daemon.
 

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I'm not a fan of the vindicare. Too much cost for too little effect. Assuming he gets a shot every turn, he's only going to average three wounds (assuming nobody saves). Useful for picking out the thousand suns sorcerer, or an icon bearer or a powerfist, but not worth the cost compared to a Callidus or something.
 

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Eldar players would love it if they did count as Daemons against Grey Knights. Remember that all those Daemons get to keep coming back using sustained assault rules................. But they aren't so it doesn't matter.
 

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Only specifically named daemons get the meatgrinder rules. Even if wraithguard counted as daemons, they wouldn't get the sustained assault unless they were on the list. (Ironically, new CSM lesser daemons aren't technically on the list, but I'd mark them under 'daemon packs')
 

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Inquisitor
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The Eversor assassin works better against the Wraithlord than the Vindicare does. The Vindicare is best suiting picking of expensive 1 wound models such as plasma, melta, heavy weapons, and Vet Sgts/Champions and the like.

I scout snipers work well against them as well but with my Grey Knights the Grand Master works best or just any old squad of Grey Knights can kill it to in HtH. Storm Troopers can get hurt it with meltas and a chimera backing them up. Anything normal used against tanks, dreadnoughts, and other walkers with the exception of grenades should work just well against it.
 
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