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Dwarves would be most likely to have metal, Lizards could have beasts. If they are only "good" manifestations then Ogres maybe dubious but they do have Firebellies.
Ogres are considered neutral, as are the Undead Legion, and Nagash is Death Incarnate.

Infor the dwarves, if Old Thorek had still been around then maybe I'd have said him definately. Although they don't have mages, that is more of a choice. I don't WANT it to be gelt. It is nice to see the continual fall and dall again. It otherwise becomes too twee imho.

As for the dorfs getting magic, written from a gameplay perspective it gives them something new. Either the high king becoming magic (and maybe an even more massive split between the race as traditionalists, engineers or the supporters of their magic high king argue) or the ultimate irony of the ultratraditionalist alrik becoming the embodiment of magic.



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Discussion Starter #142
Nagash didn't really receive his incarnation of death by chance though he went out and took it by force. I thought the idea of making people incarnates of a wind was that it would be put to good use against evil in general, so the individuals would have to be trust worthy, or am I just misunderstanding?
 

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Nagash didn't really receive his incarnation of death by chance though he went out and took it by force. I thought the idea of making people incarnates of a wind was that it would be put to good use against evil in general, so the individuals would have to be trust worthy, or am I just misunderstanding?
Nagash did just take it on his own, which Teclis planned for. Teclis actually admits in the novel that his plan, involving Aliathra, was to weaken Nagash so that he is strong enough to help them fight the Chaos Gods, but not strong enough that if the Forces of Order win the End Times, they won't be able to get rid with Nagash afterwards. Teclis is firmly of the belief that even as the Avatar of Shyish, that Malekith, Alarielle and he himself can deal with Nagash easily.


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Discussion Starter #144
Is any of this new lore making you rethink your armies of choice? Of the two I have, Tomb Kings and Dark Elves, the Tomb Kings have been gutted and the Dark Elves are a fragment of their former selves.
 

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Doesn't really fall into play for me - I play avoidance style WE - and the only thing I really miss is a heavy cavalry unit to really dish the pain when i charge - but Dragon Knights and Cold One Knights aren't that much more powerful compared to Wild Riders - 130pts for 15 WS5 s5 ap attacks versus 150pts for 5 WS5 S6 reroll 1's to wound attacks or 145pts for 10 WS5 S5 attacks? No competition.

Dark Riders being core are the only alternative option vs Glade Riders - Ellyrian Reavers are weaker glade riders (free armour piercing, but aren't forced to ambush), and cost the same with equal upgrades so irrelevant. Dark Riders 4+ save is okayish, but the shorter range isn't as good for avoidance lists. They can massively increase damage against a slower opponent, but they cost the same, so it's an easy swap if I need to test.

Waywatchers - up against Shades or Shadow Warriors. Shadow Warriors do nothing that neither Waywatchers or Shades don't do, while Shades have access to Great Weapons which gives them a decent armour hunting unit - but that's what the Waywatchers and the Wild Riders are for (who have the -3 to saves on the charge, rather than the -2 and losing ASF for the Shades. Shades can also take Khainite Assassin

Sisters of Averlorn with a Handmaiden for Move and Fire S4 shooting, but at the same time, they're only 24" range, so it's actually a net loss over the longbows of Glade Guard (Sisters aren't actually skirmishers), and a lot more expensive as a result of requring the Handmaiden.

Warlocks are just no comparison to Sisters of the Thorn IMHO - especially as I'm using the Sisters as an anvil for a Caster.

Harpies however are yet another avoidance unit, and a classic unit drop. Scourgerunner Chariots might be capable of helping with Ogres or Monsters which are due to being taken much more often as a result of the expected combined profiles in 9th. But yes, my army doesn't really change much at all. Maybe the addition of a couple of flying units of Harpies to replace a some Glade Riders.

If I was playing another kind of wood elf list, it may be useful - say Glade Guard replaced by Black Guard or Swordmasters, or White Lions or Phoenix Guard for big blockers. If I was to create a big heavy combat block army, one of Black Guard with Kouran, a DElf BSB with Banner of Nagarythe and Alith Anar attached to another unit (High Elf or Wood Elf if desired - although an Unbreakable unit of White Lions with Banner of the World Dragon could be ace) would give you 3 Unbreakable units. Moranions Wayshard on High Elf Spears is okay to give a powerful ambushing anchor unit - but they're not exactly anything capable.



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Discussion Starter #146
How about lore wise though, with all this happening do you feel as if your armies "soul" has been ripped to pieces or are you ok with the outcome? For me I'm very disappointed now, I should of just stuck with Empire.
 

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Eh, Empire players are the most hard done to. They've lost I think it's 7 provinces, and most of their best generals and spiritual figureheads and best mages - Thyrus and Gelt are dead/missing/done their nut, while some of the greatest fortresses like Bogenhafen, Carroburg, Brass Keep etc are shattered, Nordland is wiped off the map, they've lost their Grand Theogonist and the most well known Warrior Priest, plus the Herald of Sigmar has gone missing along with the Ghal Maraz. Its alliance in the west is completely shattered - the Bretons a shell of themselves thanks to losing half of their duchys to the civil war, as well as the greatest king they've ever had (Gilles "died" before he could actually run the country), while the land is covered in the shattered remnants of the Greenskins, Undead Ghoulpacks and the Beastherds breaking free of Malagor completely rendering them to nothingness.

The Dark Elves - unless it's a Khainite/Pleasure cult army, then they've simply moved home. The Khainites and pleasure cults would be accepted into Tyrion's army.

In regards to the High versus Dark Elf rivalry, well, there are very few who still remember the time before the Sundering - Malekith and Morathi, plus a few out of the way Elves - most grew up hating one another.

Not sure what you're saying, honestly. The soul is still there.



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Discussion Starter #150
What I mean by soul is their "individuality" for example the tomb kings individuality is all but gone now, nagash runs them and the only individual that retains any aspect of the original character is Khalida.
 

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What Gilles is dead to and Huss?
Gilles died/faked his death and was resurrected/became the Green Knight - but Louen is dead after trying to take on Ku'gath and a supercharged Festus during the Siege of Altdorf, while Huss/Valten were scattered to the east following the Emperor's presumed death at the hands of Walach Harkon in the opening of the Glottkin novel. What I meant about Gilles was his original "death" following his 12 great battles and being hailed as the uniter. Although that wasn't really fair - he was still a lord of Bretonnia before and was King for the years in between.

Following the presumed death of Countess von Leibwitz during the 2525 Invasion of Altdorf, that leaves a shattered empire heartland and north coast, the merchant/city of learning (Nuln) without a leader and the only remaining powerful city state being Middenheim, and that is not only cut off at the top of a mountain, but at risk of Skaven attacks from the sewers and catacombs, and Graf Todbringer is a fairly pious follower of Ulric and unlikely to welcome Super Saiyan Sigmar.

In regards to the souls, there is enough individuality there. The Ghoul Knight in the Nagash novel said as much - wanting just the end of everything. Not the end of everything and an eternity of existence under Nagash, but an ACTUAL end to all existence, to see the world barren and lifeless. Meanwhile Settra is reborn, IIRC, and Prince Apophas is scattered into his swarm of constituent bugs. I cannot remember what happened to the Liche character or the Necrotect character, but they were never fun.

Khalida actively gave herself to Nagash.

However, soul-wise, it's kind of cool that this is happening, and seeing it happen and evolve personally - not only being an old throwback to the Undead army, but to have its own character behind it. In regards to the army, the Tomb Kings themselves I found were utter gash, and stuck in the rut of being the grumpy old guy at the end of the lane who shouted "get off my lawn" every once in a while someone tried to rob his strawberries. Now they've got a reason to actually exist, rather than being morbid emo little bitches sat there lamenting what Nagash did nearly 7000 years before.



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It makes me see the Elves differently but they remain my favourite fantasy army. It changes how I would make up an army though. I'm not worried about tabletop prowess but from a fluff standpoint it adds whole new elements. I had enough trouble thinking of how I wanted to theme my army when it was just High Elves (almost as much as trying to pick a Space Marine Chapter), now it's tougher. I'm hoping once I actually manage to get a copy of the book things may become clearer to me.

Before reading this I thought that Teclis may have chosen to return to the Empire and take over from Gelt at the Collages of Magic. If that had been the case I'd have considered an Empire army instead but otherwise they just don't interest me.

On a slightly related note, here's a list of my favourite HE Characters in order and their current status:-

Eltharion the Blind - Retconned
Teclis - Missing
Korhil - Dead
Eltharion the Grim - Dead
Tyrion - Dead

So that hasn't gone too well for me ¬.¬
 

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For a Wood Elves fan, having just read the Orion series, I hated the Khaine book. It was basically a Malekith monologue. Orion, greatest hero of the wood elves battles Tyrion and dies, but it all happens in one sentence. Not even taking place in the battle. He's just a report given to Malekith, never actually seen in the book. Meanwhile the elves go to Athel Loren because "Athel Loren will welcome us, it always has." Which is... Incorrect. To say the least. It felt like the author had never read or heard anything about Wood Elves, but got to change their entire dynamic. That said I enjoyed the first two End Times books quite a bit.
 

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Some more info from Khaine, regarding Araloth's rescue mission;

4chan said:
Lileath sends Araloth and Kalara on a dangerous journey; deep into the Realm of Chaos, to seek out Nurgle's mansion and rescue Shallya. During their travels, they form an alliance with a somewhat crazed human scholar who has evidently been given free reign to roam the Realms of Chaos unmolested - possibly Richter Kless, author of the Liber Chaotica. With his assistance, Araloth makes a brief foray into the Crystal Maze of Tzeentch and rescues an imprisoned sorcerer, who lends his sorcerous powers to their journey. Their group completes itself with the addition of a strangely accented giant-statured human, a knight in brilliant silver armor - this may be Kaldor Draigo. Together, they finally reach Nurgle's mansion, where the knight sacrifices himself to distract the guardian daemons so that the others can sneak into Nurgle's pox-kitchen. There, they rescue Shallya, but only with a sacrifice; Kalara has to remain behind and serve as the poxfulcrum, the daemon tester of Nurgle's plagues, or else Nurgle will realise that the goddess has been stolen from him. As the quartet leave, the sorcerer betrays Araloth, only to be swallowed whole by a beast of Nurgle that Araloth took pity on during their initial travels. The scholar deceives the daemonic beast into leaving without accidentally killing "its friend Araloth", bids the Wood Elf and the weakened deity adieu, then happily wanders off into the Realms of Chaos again, even as Araloth returns to Lileath's side.
Cool. That in itself could be a novel; Araloth , Richter Kless and Kaldor Draigo teaming up to rescue Shallya from Nurgle's realm. I suspect that the author however has mixed up Isha and Shallya. Not sure who the Sorcerer is, but I suspect he is somebody of note, or who the hell Kalara is.


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Further information to come...
I have quite a few questions, but i'll settle for this one to start with; Who the hell does Lokhir Fellheart side with??


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