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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey Folks, might be going down the rabbit hole with this one, but here's the context.

Recently came up against a Space Wolves list that was almost exlusively Thunderwolf Cavalry with chainsword / stormshields.

Each unit was led by a character of some description to rock the 2+ save, also with Stormshields for the 3++. Now my opponent was running the aforementioned character at the front of the unit to tank wounds, and after the character had taken a bit of damage he was look out sir-ing the wounds on to the Twolves behind.

It's a nasty list, as without pure mathhammer (something I don't find my SMs excel at) or Destroyer weapons, some things just don't die.

Now the mechanics of this taking a few wounds then LoSing bugged me a little, so I've delved into the minutae of it, and here's what I've come up with. Any feedback would be appreciated.

Let's look at the Look Out Sir rule first, specifically for shooting.

When a Wound is allocated to one of your non-vehicle characters, and there is another model from the same unit within 6", he is allowed a Look Out Sir attempt.

So, by this I understand that LoS happens during wound allocation. So let's look at that, but first a quick look at shooting:

All of the models in the unit that are firing the selected weapon shoot at the same time.

Example excerpt: The 8 models now shoot at the target unit. After these shots have been completely resolved, the Space Marine Player then nominates 'plasma gun' and completely resolves the shot with his plasma gun.

No queries here, just wanted to highlight the phrasing of "completely resolved" when it comes to a group of shots from a certain weapon type, as I've heard some odd arguments about this before.

So, back to wound allocation:

Total up the number of wounds you have caused with the weapons that are firing

All wounds with exactly the same Strength, AP value and special rules must go into the same pool

Whilst you're firing the same weapon, some rules like rending means you may end up with multiple wound pools.

If several pools of wounds need to be allocated, the player making the attacks decides the order in which they are allocated.All of the Wounds from a single Wounds pool must be allocated before moving on to the next Wounds pool

This is where it gets a little hairy. It's my understanding that this is where the look out sir happens, before any saving rolls are made.

It's also my understanding that with two wound pools from the same weapon (i.e. 3 Normal shots from an assault cannon) all 4 shots are allocated (and LoSed) before any saving rolls are made.

I've probably digressed a bit, but my original point was that making a few saves, failing one, THEN LoSing the remaining wounds just ain't cricket. You're supposed to man up and say "I'm LoSing this many wounds, and taking this many saves on my manly chest hair".

Thanks for reading my ramblings, comments are very welcome.

Hopefully I've hit the nail, but this'll teach me for playing "inventive" people when I'm tired (which is half of the time) and stupid (which is....yeah).
 

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You are right. LoS happens before any kind of saves, after hit resolutins.
 

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yes, we are a death cult, secretly. when the time is right, we will fall on the world to reap heads fo our master justin.
 

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Rattlehead
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Pretty sure storm shields most definetely do not grant a 3++...
Absolutely sure they most definitely do, and have for the past three editions.

My understanding of it was that if everyone in the unit had the same save, then you take all the saves first and then Look Out Sir them (mathematically, it's irrelevant, so ultimately I don't think it even matters in what order you do it for a unit of guys with identical saves). If you have a character with a different save to the rest of his unit, then you have to Look Out Sir first, then take saves, although you can start rolling his saves in batches and start Look Out Sir-ing once he's taken a few hits.
 

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Absolutely sure they most definitely do, and have for the past three editions.

My understanding of it was that if everyone in the unit had the same save, then you take all the saves first and then Look Out Sir them (mathematically, it's irrelevant, so ultimately I don't think it even matters in what order you do it for a unit of guys with identical saves). If you have a character with a different save to the rest of his unit, then you have to Look Out Sir first, then take saves, although you can start rolling his saves in batches and start Look Out Sir-ing once he's taken a few hits.
Oh ok my bad. I suspect I was thinking of the smaller combat shield variant.
 

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Alright, so we have a Wound Pool and some shit needs to happen. Lets see what the BRB says:

pg. 35 under Allocate Wounds (first sentence):

First, allocate a Wound from the Wound pool to the enemy model closest to the firing unit, regardless of which model caused that Wound.
Rockin'! So we allocate wounds one at a time from the Wound pool. Not all at once like is being spoken of. This is the time for Look Out Sir! rolls to be made, since this is the moment that a wound is allocated to a model.

From the same page, under Take Saves & Remove Casualties:

The model gets to make a saving throw..if that model is reduced to 0 wounds remove it as a casualty. Continue allocating Wounds to the closest model, taking saves and removing casualties until the Wound pool is empty or all models in the unit have been removed as casualties.
More wording supporting that wounds are allocated one at a time again, and not en masse.

So here we are, with one of the most abused rules in the game: Look Out Sir!

When each new wound is allocated to a Character model, a new LOS roll can be made, or not, depending on whether there are other models in the unit within 6" and if you feel like it. They are done one by god damned one, unless you have a method which quickens up the dice that you agree on with your opponent/TO. My group often does LOS rolls in groups equal to the number of wounds it would take to kill the model unless the wounds are causing Instant Death, then we do it one by one.

That all jive?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Glorious. Just glorious.

Whilst I hate the implications of the answer, I very much appreciate the clarification. Thank you darling!

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go purchase some D weapons.
 

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Whilst I hate the implications of the answer, I very much appreciate the clarification.
No problem. I really do think this mechanic is something the game was fine without. All it does is slow down wound allocation and give me headaches (this is another conversation I've had a few times).
 
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