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In Halo the spartan process was perfected with SPARTAN 4 and now can have them in larger numbers. Is it possible for some mechanicus or very intelligent individual to do this? Hell for all we know the emperor might have wanted to attempt it before the Horus heresy hit.
 

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Corax found a super fast method during the Horus Heresy, but it ended rather badly due to Alpha Legion interference which was never discovered.

And pre-heresy the Astartes process was still a LOT faster than present time. One of the changes during the Second Founding, was that the newly created chapters would use a far more slower and stable method. As the accelerated process used by the legions was prowen to be far too unstable and fingered to be a cause in their betrayal.
 

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I would imagine the answer is yes, but due to the capabilities of space marines and the fact of the Heresy, nobody wants to sign off on mass foundings of marines in case history repeats itself. You also have the dogmatic approach to technology and vested interests of Imperial hierarchy
 

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If it was possible, somebody somewhere would be doing it, be it Mechanicus or Inquisition. I can't really see the =][= not churning out an endless stream of GKs if they could do so.

As the accelerated process used by the legions was proven to be far too unstable and fingered to be a cause in their betrayal.
I've never read anything that stated that. I think the instability had more to do with the fact that it was often attempted on people beyond the ideal adolescent age group for the process. All the primarchs had a bunch of grown-up comrades, retinues and sidekicks that wanted to join them on the crusade and were willing to put themselves through such a dangerous process to achieve that. Not all of them were successful.
 

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If it was possible, somebody somewhere would be doing it, be it Mechanicus or Inquisition. I can't really see the =][= not churning out an endless stream of GKs if they could do so.


I've never read anything that stated that. I think the instability had more to do with the fact that it was often attempted on people beyond the ideal adolescent age group for the process. All the primarchs had a bunch of grown-up comrades, retinues and sidekicks that wanted to join them on the crusade and were willing to put themselves through such a dangerous process to achieve that. Not all of them were successful.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Marines
The Horus Heresy had also revealed weaknesses in the gene-seed of several Space Marine Legions. These defects had been exacerbated by the accelerated gene-seed cultivation techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength. Guilliman believed that the Chaos powers were able to exploit the resultant physical and mental corruption to turn Horus' troops against the Emperor. One of the key objectives of the new Codex Astartes was to recognise and expunge these genetic weaknesses. As a result, the Codex Astartes decreed that Space Marines would forever more be created and trained slowly. The genetic banks used to create Astartes implants would be carefully monitored and scrutinised for any defects. Cultivated organs would be subject to the most stringent tests of purity. Young Initiates would undergo trials of suitability before they were accepted, and only those of the very sternest character would be chosen.
 

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Anything more solid than a wiki?

That quote from wiki is from codex spacemarines page 8, of course it does say that it was Guillimans "belief" that this led to several legions turning, does not mean he was right. Tbh the process is pretty perfected, with a slower creation process and more rigorous screening process and purity tests on gene seed, but none of this matters as B.L have loyalist chapters turning at the drop of a hat as a weal plot device to top up numbers of traitor marines
 

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Didn't the Emperor's Children perfect it as the Index Astartes entry says they had every implant functioning at maximum efficiency which no other legion managed and the process was lost after the Heresy
 

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Corax found a super fast method during the Horus Heresy, but it ended rather badly due to Alpha Legion interference which was never discovered.

And pre-heresy the Astartes process was still a LOT faster than present time. One of the changes during the Second Founding, was that the newly created chapters would use a far more slower and stable method. As the accelerated process used by the legions was prowen to be far too unstable and fingered to be a cause in their betrayal.
You have it the wrong way round.

The Heresy occured, attrition went up, rate of recruitment, and short cuts were made to get people battle ready.

Where once you had mighty, honourable great crusade marines, you were now left with bitter, hollow marines who were but a shadow of what they could have been.

Zerachiel, as far as I'm aware, that fluff is considered retconned entirely, useful only as taster fluff to the Horus Heresy background information laid out in the FW productions, which outright refute such information provided within them as lies and contradict at other times.

The need for Space Marines was coming to an end. The Emperor had no need to perfect it. With the Great Crusade theoretically complete, and everyone converted to the Imperial Truth, and with the belief of the Chaos Gods wiped out, what need was there for Iconoclasts like the Word Bearers? What Cities needed destroying by the IVth? Or letting slip the World Eaters? Or the Night Lords? Horus' own legion would have proved useless. The Lion, Russ, Sanguinius, very little were they needed for; arguments could be made for Sanguinius re Imperium Secundus, but honestly Imperium Secundus needed a Warrior-Emperor and avenging angel figurehead; that was he; Imperium Primus needed no such thing. The Thousand Sons would have had to have been killed at some time, as they continued to practise Warp Magic, and the veneration of the Emperor as a god would have been dangerous, so that is 8 legions at least wiped out. The Khan hated the yoke of the Imperium, but his legion could have been relatively peaceable, but he'd have "rebelled" and fled eventually, so that's 9.

What does that leave us with?

Emperor's Children; maybe, they were reasonably cultural, keep
Raven Guard; no, these would have been nixed
Ultramarines; notable for administration and being relatively peaceable with a geneseed noted as a calming influence, keep
Salamanders; champions of humanity; keep
Iron Hands; nopenopenope
Alpha Legion; who the fuck knows? Whether they wanted to kill them or not they'd stay. To save the trouble, I'd say keep them
Imperial Fists; Praetorians, but warrior minded (as opposed to the 4th necessity as soldiers, but following Pertys lead, architects at heart initially), keep
Death Guard/Dusk Raiders; nope

So there you have it; out of the possible ones who would have a place in the new Imperium post Great Crusade, you'd have 4, maybe 5 legions worth keeping, and not necessarily expanding. The only reason I could see to keep them would be to a) power the Golden Throne with their psykers, b) get into the webway and fuck shit up.

After then? Who knows; he didn't foresee the Heresy, but that's Chaos and funky shit, but with his astronomicon, it's questionable whether he even knew of the intergalactic threat of the nids and any potential need to have the legions around for those purposes.



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I agree with Vaz. Signs pointed to the end of astartes. Dorn and the Imperial Fists were the first to really understand the meaning of the end of the Crusade when we read Horus Rising.

As far as thread question. I believe the probably is, however, the secrets to it are probably strictly unused and protected.
 

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The pre-Heresy conversion process did involve a lot less dogma in the conversion process. In Fallen Angels, Luther perfects the Astartes conversion process down to months or only 1-2 years, if memory serves, with no description of this causing undue taint... the whole Fallen issue aside.

Every 40K conversion that's described leans heavily on the idomatic preferences of the individual chapter in their Astartes conversion process. Then there's the failed founding that had the Mechanicum and Inquisition try their own hand at 'improving' on the gene seed and process... both of which failed miserably and probably contributed to deeping the dogmatic approach to conversion.
 

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You have it the wrong way round.

The Heresy occured, attrition went up, rate of recruitment, and short cuts were made to get people battle ready.

Where once you had mighty, honourable great crusade marines, you were now left with bitter, hollow marines who were but a shadow of what they could have been.

Zerachiel, as far as I'm aware, that fluff is considered retconned entirely, useful only as taster fluff to the Horus Heresy background information laid out in the FW productions, which outright refute such information provided within them as lies and contradict at other times.

The need for Space Marines was coming to an end. The Emperor had no need to perfect it. With the Great Crusade theoretically complete, and everyone converted to the Imperial Truth, and with the belief of the Chaos Gods wiped out, what need was there for Iconoclasts like the Word Bearers? What Cities needed destroying by the IVth? Or letting slip the World Eaters? Or the Night Lords? Horus' own legion would have proved useless. The Lion, Russ, Sanguinius, very little were they needed for; arguments could be made for Sanguinius re Imperium Secundus, but honestly Imperium Secundus needed a Warrior-Emperor and avenging angel figurehead; that was he; Imperium Primus needed no such thing. The Thousand Sons would have had to have been killed at some time, as they continued to practise Warp Magic, and the veneration of the Emperor as a god would have been dangerous, so that is 8 legions at least wiped out. The Khan hated the yoke of the Imperium, but his legion could have been relatively peaceable, but he'd have "rebelled" and fled eventually, so that's 9.

What does that leave us with?

Emperor's Children; maybe, they were reasonably cultural, keep
Raven Guard; no, these would have been nixed
Ultramarines; notable for administration and being relatively peaceable with a geneseed noted as a calming influence, keep
Salamanders; champions of humanity; keep
Iron Hands; nopenopenope
Alpha Legion; who the fuck knows? Whether they wanted to kill them or not they'd stay. To save the trouble, I'd say keep them
Imperial Fists; Praetorians, but warrior minded (as opposed to the 4th necessity as soldiers, but following Pertys lead, architects at heart initially), keep
Death Guard/Dusk Raiders; nope

So there you have it; out of the possible ones who would have a place in the new Imperium post Great Crusade, you'd have 4, maybe 5 legions worth keeping, and not necessarily expanding. The only reason I could see to keep them would be to a) power the Golden Throne with their psykers, b) get into the webway and fuck shit up.

After then? Who knows; he didn't foresee the Heresy, but that's Chaos and funky shit, but with his astronomicon, it's questionable whether he even knew of the intergalactic threat of the nids and any potential need to have the legions around for those purposes.
While I totally agree with a lot of your analysis of the legions how about the Blood Angels, Sons of Horus and Thousand Sons? Sanguinius was a well known figure in the Imperium and as far as I know he was widely loved. How would it seem if his Legion was disbanded?

The Sons of Horus would be even more politically charged. Would the lead Primarch accept having his legion disbanded? I can't see it happening. The Thousand Sons I could see being kept to assist with the astronomicon and Golden Throne.

Also how about the first Legion, the Dark Angels? Lion El'Jonson and the First Legion seem to have held quite a lot of political influence which is why they were able to get weaponry and unusual relics without anyone batting an eyelid. They're also pretty balanced so I can see them staying too.

I think the Imperium would also need the Raven Guard, after all even empires at peace need special ops troops so if Alpha Legion stays then I think the Raven Guard would stay too?

Re the info from Index Astartes, I accept a lot of it has been retconned but I can't find any info stating the info on the Emperor's Children having all their implants working at maximum efficiency has been retconned. As far as I'm aware retconned is where future information is released which contradicts earlier information and I can't find anything that contradicts the info from Index Astartes. I may be wrong and if you can cite your sources I will accept it.
 

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There was a short story where the garrison left behind on baal was forced to deal with the prospect of the sigilite having authorized the demolishing and seizure of all blood angels assets for the grey knights program, as it was believed the angel and his fleet was lost. But the castellan managed to stall long enough to recieving a signal from sanguinus' fleet, showing he was still alive. Faced with that knowledge, the reclamator fleet relented and left the Baal system.

Edit: That was during the Signus campaign.
 

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BA; Sanguinius knows his sons are broken. He'll have them killed if it's for the better. What role the BA fill when the Great Crusade is over?

Sons of Horus; same deal. Maybe a bit of a bitchfit, but he'd come round with the Emperor talking to him. Plus, Horus can be an empire leader. The same way the Emperor had no problem ending the Thunder Warrior program, he'd had no problem ending the Space Marines.

Dark Angels? They were the first. If anything, they'd be one legion no one would care about ending. They are dark and edgy as fuck, and have no part other than being genocidal.

Unlikely, regards to the Raven Guard. The Raven Guard and the Xeric Tribes were much more brutal during the Heresy than they were post deliverance. While many were killed following fighting alongside the Luna Wolves where many of the terran veterans died, there is enough influence there to make them unnecessary. And tbh, why need RG when there are AL? The RG couldn't even spot the AL infiltrators, nor the Ultramarines at a heightened state of defense following Calth. About the only people able to stop that are the Custodes.

Regarding the Index Astartes, it is so out of date and so incredibly wrong compared to the fluff in the latest productions that unless it's put in the latest version of the legions background fluff, it's retconned and not part of the current canon. Otherwise, it's like saying that there are Space Marines in warhammer Fantasy because there were back in the 1980's Slaves to Darkness etc.



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The Index Astartes doesn't seemed really ret-conned by new fluff. Mostly...filled in.

Also I see Space Marines progressing in a different way. I mean, sure, Space Marines built and trained for war wouldn't be terribly useful in peace...but can you imagine Space Marine initiates selected for their intelligence instead of warcraft?

I think it's unfair to compare Space Marines selected to fight and tossing them into a peaceful setting.
 

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When their geneseeds genetic disposition is for such?

As for the fluff being retconned, it takes some parts and brings them forwards. Other parts it leaves behind, and other parts it utterly changes.

While it can be useful information on the background, now there is a team dedicated to creating a cohesive background to the setting, while the other was formative, haphazard and includes sources actively contradicted in the most recent publication in fluff. While an interview with ADB stated that he was told that the readers of GW stuff tended to pick and choose what they like to read, it's common that the most recent fluff is the most accurate source of the information, and that Goto is a bad dream that people don't like to remember.

For such an article, detailing the nature of the Geneseed of the Emperor's Children, to go from mentioning that the accident nearly killed the legion until Fulgrim was found, you would have thought that such a momentous rate of geneseed acceptance and other implantation process would have been pretty noteworthy, but it's not mentioned in Betrayal. That absence speaks loud if I'm honest, as no new readers would now have access to the Index Astartes articles detailing the legions, meaning that the only source available for people now is HH:Book 1 - Betrayal



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For such an article, detailing the nature of the Geneseed of the Emperor's Children, to go from mentioning that the accident nearly killed the legion until Fulgrim was found, you would have thought that such a momentous rate of geneseed acceptance and other implantation process would have been pretty noteworthy, but it's not mentioned in Betrayal. That absence speaks loud if I'm honest, as no new readers would now have access to the Index Astartes articles detailing the legions, meaning that the only source available for people now is HH:Book 1 - Betrayal
I'm sorry, but what are you referencing? I don't quite follow what you're trying to say. Where does (in either sources) say the Emperor's Children geneseed had "momentous rate of geneseed acceptance"?
 

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Caveat is that the Index Astartes that after the destruction of the Legion's gene-seed stock, the Apothecaries were extra careful in handling the remaining gene-seed and picking the absolute best initiates for implantation. I think it'd be safe to assume that once gene-seed became more common after finding Fulgrim, they were able to drop their standards a bit.

And also let's be realistic here. There's no way a single source (or even a few sources) are going to be able to hold all the "acceptable" canon. It'd get unwieldly.

Furthermore, it'd be a bit silly to limit ourselves to the latest few sources of information. The universe would be awfully small.
 
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