[NiceGuyEddy]

Okay so after reading Nemesis, and the other Heresy novels, I'm beginning to wonder if Horus's death would have stopped the heresy.

Admittedly if he had died, for instance, pre Isstvan chaos may never have had the clout to convert so many primarchs whilst scattering the rest. But if the assassination in Nemesis had gone to plan then his death would be almost meaningless. It's becoming apparent that most of Horus's movements are being "suggested" to him by the Chaos gods via Erebus and his fleet has grown to such a size that they need only arrive in a system before that system rebels and renounces the imperium in terror.

So if Horus got offed it would be fairly simple to place a "puppet" warmaster in place to look godly. I mean if Abbaddon was able to take command and organize a retreat to the eye of terror surely Lorgar, Magnus, or Perturabo could step up and hold them together for a while.

Pretty much every characteristic attributed to Horus, like strategic mastermind, famed general, peerless warrior etc. Is mentioned for most other primarchs too, so (with chaos's help of course) most other primarchs would have been able to steer the ship once Horus got it up and running.

So I put it to you, would Horus's assassination have stopped the heresy dead in it's tracks?

 

[naturalbornloser]

I don't think it would have. What it would have done would be to slow them down. If Horus was killed that would leave a massive vacum in the top echlone of the ledership. All the other Primarchs would have stoped to consolidate their power base at the time and muster their forces. Then there would be alot of bravado and muscle flexing for a bit, and some attempts at minor alliances to help 1 primarch become number 1 top chaos dog.

Once the top man has been selected another cull of all suspect troops, units, comanders etc would have to be carried out to make sure every 1 is back on the same page.

After all that and aload of other stuff I'm bound to have missed out ( but you get the drift ) then and only then would they be able to continue the march on Terra.

Now while all this is going on ( acouple of years at the least ) I'll bet the Emp and Dorn wernt sitting around talking cod shit over a pint.

So yeah I reckon the death of Horous would maby not stoped it happening, but would have made it a shed load harder.

 

[komanko]

I didnt read the book, but theoretically, once the legions were corrupted the man sitting at the "throne" didn't matter anymore it could be anyone from Horus to Fulgrim, it really does not matter because the heresy has found them already and they pledged themselves to the chaos gods.

 

[CaptainLoken]

But then as soon as Horus got killed by the Big E. Everything went to shit and they all fled like the traitors they are...

 

[normtheunsavoury]

Captain Loken has pretty much hit the nail on the head, what happened when Horus was killed proves that he was pivotal to the rebellion.
If Horus had been killed the remaining primarchs would have turned on each other for the position of Warmaster. As much as he was used as a puppet by the Word Bearers he was still a figure head and a great leader, he alone managed to bring together half of the legions and he did it by asking them to join his uprising. The other Primarchs were too arrogant and filled with their own self importance to follow anyone other than Horus.

 

[Brother Subtle]

i just have this sinking feeling that choas would have had a back up plan if Horus had been killed. I think Lorgar would have filled his shoes nicley had Horus been topped off early. and if another primarch didnt like Lorgar's appointment, we all know Erebus is a good 'persuader'. The only primarch i can see that wouldnt like Lorgar's appointment would be Perturabo. As he probably thinks he'd do a better job. Angron would just be happy to kill, Fulgrim was possessed by a daemon, Morty is just a follower, Alpharus is only doing it cos an Eldar told him to, Night Haunter has already started plotting his own demise. am i forgetting another traitor primarch? probably, but if i did hes not important enough to lead the rebellion.

hmmm, i forgot about Magnus. but none of the others trust him to begin with as hes a dirty 'witch' to them.

 

[gen.ahab]

I don't think lorgar could have actually commanded the forces. He wasn't nearly the commander Horus was. If they lost Horus the rebellion would have lost it's brightest general while the loyalist would have still had G and the lion. Their advance would have been slowed and I think it would sign their death worrent.

 

[Belthazor Aurellius]

Horus was attributed to being the master of politics within the legions, master of tactics and a primarch of primarchs, if you will...

His leadership was the cement binding the heresy together. Think of the Horus Heresy as a flying brick house, with Horus as the mortar between the bricks of the legions. It's a giant house, roughly two acres in size and it's flying right at the Emperor's castle, roughly three and a half acres in size. If the mortar holds, the house stands a chance of toppling the Emperor's tallest towers, and possibly the whole damn castle will collapse beneath the brickwork of This Heretical House (starring Bob Vila).

Now, you dissolve the mortar, and while the bricks are still flying through the air, they are each dealing with a different amount of wind resistance, drag and lift, and each brick begins to become distanced from its brother, as these differences grow. As the brick house flies into the Emperor's castle, each brick hits, many shatter harmlessly against the outer defense walls, drag and gravity having robbed them of momentum. Others, while staying higher up, penetrate the defenses, but as few of the bricks still hold bonds to other bricks, they begin shattering on impact on the towers, some take pock marks from the walls, the towers, the plazas between fortifications, some civilians below are crushed by falling ruin, but for the most part, the castle stands, the Emperor's rule unbroken.

The Emperor would have had fractured and divided enemies, instead of a singular enemy, he would have been able to pacify the legions (wipe them out, all of them), and slap Guilliman for trying to put words in his mouth. =P

I think assassinating Horus before he got to Terra would have mattered... but now, it doesn't, because we already know how the story ends... it's just reading how we get there that makes these books fun.

 

[NiceGuyEddy]

But then as soon as Horus got killed by the Big E. Everything went to shit and they all fled like the traitors they are...

By that stage it could be argued that the fight was lost anyway as there were loyalist reinforcements inbound and Horus's gamble had failed. It would be a big ask for any leader to hold together the troops at a time like that.

But what I'm talking about is a leadership change when the traitor forces are still in a position of power. The heresy's timeline is hard to nail down but I think there were still a few years to go before the siege once the events of Nemesis are concluded, leaving more than enough time for a new primarch to take over.

And let’s not forget that Horus was a tactical genius and the setting up of something as fundamentally simple as a chain of command shouldn’t have been beyond him so assuming he managed to set one up the degree of infighting could have been kept to a minimum.

There's also, as Brother subtle points out, the fact that the chaos gods are in a strong position. When Horus was defeated and the emperor did the whole "struck with enough power to send them retreating back to the warp" thing they were still strong enough to summon enough power to bring Luther of the Dark Angels up to Primarch strength. So at Nemesis's time they should be more than capable of exherting the influence necessary to crown another warmaster from the stock of remaining primarchs who, by this point, have been under the influence of chaos for quite some time anyway and should be quite susceptible to suggestions.

If they lost Horus the rebellion would have lost its brightest general while the loyalist would have still had G and the lion. Their advance would have been slowed and I think it would sign their death worrent.

At the time I'm referring to I think G and the Lion have already been scattered and are effectively put on the sidelines. I haven't got the source material right now but I think that decision was made immediately prior to Isstvan in Fulgrim. And again I'm only going on what Erebus claims i.e. that the majority of the heresy has been planned by the Chaos gods. And that Horus's input was in reality quite limited. You have to admit some of Horus's strategies have an awful lot of Tzeentch in them.:grin:

 

[NiceGuyEddy]

Horus was attributed to being the master of politics within the legions, master of tactics and a primarch of primarchs, if you will...

His leadership was the cement binding the heresy together. Think of the Horus Heresy as a flying brick house, with Horus as the mortar between the bricks of the legions. It's a giant house, roughly two acres in size and it's flying right at the Emperor's castle, roughly three and a half acres in size. If the mortar holds, the house stands a chance of toppling the Emperor's tallest towers, and possibly the whole damn castle will collapse beneath the brickwork of This Heretical House (starring Bob Vila).

Now, you dissolve the mortar, and while the bricks are still flying through the air, they are each dealing with a different amount of wind resistance, drag and lift, and each brick begins to become distanced from its brother, as these differences grow. As the brick house flies into the Emperor's castle, each brick hits, many shatter harmlessly against the outer defense walls, drag and gravity having robbed them of momentum. Others, while staying higher up, penetrate the defenses, but as few of the bricks still hold bonds to other bricks, they begin shattering on impact on the towers, some take pock marks from the walls, the towers, the plazas between fortifications, some civilians below are crushed by falling ruin, but for the most part, the castle stands, the Emperor's rule unbroken.

The Emperor would have had fractured and divided enemies, instead of a singular enemy, he would have been able to pacify the legions (wipe them out, all of them), and slap Guilliman for trying to put words in his mouth. =P

I think assassinating Horus before he got to Terra would have mattered... but now, it doesn't, because we already know how the story ends... it's just reading how we get there that makes these books fun.

If Horus was the mortar chaos was the bricklayer. Nemesis also points out that the Sons of Horus had been using proxies in some of Horus's appearances so there's no reason to assume that word of his assassination would have spread too quickly. That could potentially give time for chaos to do a bit of remedial work on your brickwork. Nice analogy though.

 

[Belthazor Aurellius]

Thank you. I tried.

It's a good question, would it have mattered? But, unless the whole Horus Heresy goes to Retcon Hell, we can assume that the plot and ending are set in black granite, with the Emperor's insignia etched into a large headstone dated 8000BCE-30,000CE...

 

[gen.ahab]

At the time I'm referring to I think G and the Lion have already been scattered and are effectively put on the sidelines. I haven't got the source material right now but I think that decision was made immediately prior to Isstvan in Fulgrim. And again I'm only going on what Erebus claims i.e. that the majority of the heresy has been planned by the Chaos gods. And that Horus's input was in reality quite limited. You have to admit some of Horus's strategies have an awful lot of Tzeentch in them.:grin:

Yes, but look how well it went for them. If Horus were to be taken down and Lorgar to become the leader, the traitors advance would have slowed substantially, assuming that they actually could function. It would have given both legions the time they needed to return.

 

[NiceGuyEddy]

Yeah I agree, I'm not saying they would have won, just that post a successful assassination:

1. The traitors would not just look around and become disillusioned and give up, that's a certainty.

2. The traitors probably would have organised themselves into a fairly cohesive fighting force quicker than I would have thought pre Nemesis.

3. Would have followed a similar path to the one that Horus did. With similar results. Given how long the siege lasted for I reckon they would have besieged terra before gulliman and co showed up.

 

[gen.ahab]

Even if they were slowed a week though, which they would, 3 more legions would have been present. It would have doomed the heresy.

 

[Clegane]

the way i see it see it yes and no. he does have such an effect on what happens especially what happens in the final battle.

Horus being assassinated brings to mind the dangers of being a martry, but I don't think any of the other traitor primarchs had the strategic foresight that could reach the heart of the imperium like he could.

On the other hand war could have still been so brutal that the imperium could still lost its way whoever lead the traitor legions.

But I still think it would have far better to take out Horus... the traitor legions primarchs would still more likely fall on themselves to take command and fail to unify to a purpose

 

[NiceGuyEddy]

Even if they were slowed a week though, which they would. 3 more legions would have been present. It would have doomed the heresy.

I guess you have a point there, perhaps Lorgar and co would have to do some tweaking in the years preceding terra.

 

[5tonsledge]

Okay so after reading Nemesis, and the other Heresy novels, I'm beginning to wonder if Horus's death would have stopped the heresy.

Admittedly if he had died, for instance, pre Isstvan chaos may never have had the clout to convert so many primarchs whilst scattering the rest. But if the assassination in Nemesis had gone to plan then his death would be almost meaningless. It's becoming apparent that most of Horus's movements are being "suggested" to him by the Chaos gods via Erebus and his fleet has grown to such a size that they need only arrive in a system before that system rebels and renounces the imperium in terror.

So if Horus got offed it would be fairly simple to place a "puppet" warmaster in place to look godly. I mean if Abbaddon was able to take command and organize a retreat to the eye of terror surely Lorgar, Magnus, or Perturabo could step up and hold them together for a while.

Pretty much every characteristic attributed to Horus, like strategic mastermind, famed general, peerless warrior etc. Is mentioned for most other primarchs too, so (with chaos's help of course) most other primarchs would have been able to steer the ship once Horus got it up and running.

So I put it to you, would Horus's assassination have stopped the heresy dead in it's tracks?

i think renegades would poke about but not a full scale imperial war.

 

[Belthazor Aurellius]

I think my only perception of possible change would be that if Horus had been slain by an assassin, he would not have been there for the Emperor to launch a boarding party that doomed himself and Sang. If it had been Fulgrim that Sang fought, or Angron, perhaps he'd have died, but the Emperor wouldn't have. And I don't think the Emperor would have held back against Lorgar, he would have simply done what he should have done back when Lorgar was singing praises to His name...

 

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

3. Would have followed a similar path to the one that Horus did. With similar results. Given how long the siege lasted for I reckon they would have besieged terra before gulliman and co showed up.

The reason Rogal Dorn oppossed the Execution Force's mission to kill Horus Lupercal was because of this. Horus was predictable, or at least his ultimate goal and purpose was. Dorn knew that Horus ultimately had to besiege Terra and kill the Emperor if he was to succeed in his rebellion. If Horus had been killed, the unified rebels would have fractured and many Legions would have gone their own way. But the death of Horus would have not only shattered the cohesion of the Traitor Forces, but also their predictability. The galaxy as a whole may have suffered a lot more during the Heresy if Horus had been killed during the Age of Darkness rather than during the Siege of Terra.

 

[NiceGuyEddy]

I understand the point, I just think that the more the books are stretching out the more apparent it is becoming that the overall "path to terra" isn't horus's plan but that of his chaos puppeteers. Erebus mentioned at some point something about waiting until the "stars were in align" or something to that effect. In the same chapter, probably even the same page, he talks about witholding information from horus further reinforcing the idea that horus is being manipulated and is a figurehead albeit an important one.

That's not to say he is not having a tacticul input and as someone pointed out the shield gambit that may or may not have been sentiment/regret might never have happened without horus in command or this idea of personally "raising the flag" that was contrary to erebus's plans and has been delaying the advance.

Whether they would have stayed together or not is admittedly uncertain but dont forget that the chaos gods had put aside they're differences and were working together and by this stage must have had a great deal of influence over the remaining primarchs. In addition the influence of the lodges was binding the legions together at a battle brother level. It's also conceivable that an assassination would have banded the traitors together under a flag of vengence, necessity and opportunity.