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Discussion Starter #1
One Horus with all four Chaos Gods pumping him full of power was enough to challenge the Emperor (yes, I'm aware the Emperor might've held back out of love but Horus still managed to hurt him grievously).

Could all 18 pre-Heresy primarchs give the Big E a run for his money. Do you think that uncorrupted primarchs would have a very hard time attempting to hurt their father (sort of like how uncorrupted Astartes generally find it very hard not to obey primarchs)?
 

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It mostly depends on who the Primarch is.

I am 100% postive that Angron(Loyal) would have no problem attacking the Emperor if he pissed him off. And contrast to Logar(Loyal) who probably would have killed himself before attacking the Emperor.
 

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I don't know if we can really answer this. We've seen many of the Primarchs fight, seen them do physical feats (didn't Vulkan flip over a Predator tank?), and seen what sort of punishment they can take. Of the Emperor, however, we haven't really seen him in action. And not in any real detail.

There are too many blanks. All 18 of them may walk over him or the Emperor could crush them in an instant.
 

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If one very big Ork almost choked the Emperor, meaning he had to be saved by Horus (I think) then I would say that all 18 Primarchs would have kicked his butt.
The Ork is never specified as *choking* the Emperor, but rather "struggled to choke the Emperor's life out of him".

I could struggle to lift the Earth over my head. Doesn't necessarily mean I would succeed. (For the record, I would.)

I'm thinking there was either 1. Some extraneous circumstance we're unaware of (say, the Emperor had to wield his psychic might to deaden the ability of the 50,000 weirdboyz on the planet) 2. Used it as a way to deepen the bond between him and Horus. Or even as means for Horus to repay the Emperor for saving Horus's life during the Reillis city ambush.
 

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The Ork is never specified as *choking* the Emperor, but rather "struggled to choke the Emperor's life out of him".

I could struggle to lift the Earth over my head. Doesn't necessarily mean I would succeed. (For the record, I would.)

I'm thinking there was either 1. Some extraneous circumstance we're unaware of (say, the Emperor had to wield his psychic might to deaden the ability of the 50,000 weirdboyz on the planet) 2. Used it as a way to deepen the bond between him and Horus. Or even as means for Horus to repay the Emperor for saving Horus's life during the Reillis city ambush.
That's reading way more into it than I did, to me 'struggling to choke' and 'saved by Horus' was enough for me to draw the conclusion I did. But if you think otherwise then that's down to you.
 

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I'd say they could definitely give him a run for his money- one on one tournament-style (assuming no Chaos involvement) I'd say the Emperor would lay down some pain. 18-on-1 might be pushing it for even the Emperor, seeing as the Primarchs themselves were supposedly second only to him individually. As a whole mob (can you imagine the point cost of that squad?) they might have the oomph to take him on.

Then again, it's mentioned that the Emperor was holding back throughout his entire duel with Horus, and rather quickly wasted him when he stopped handicapping himself. Maybe the Emperor could pull it off, but against all 18, I doubt it.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Some extraneous circumstance we're unaware of (say, the Emperor had to wield his psychic might to deaden the ability of the 50,000 weirdboyz on the planet)
I'm thinking the Ork who "struggled to choke" the Emp was the Ork equivalent of Chaos-empowered Horus, i.e. all 50,000 (or whatnot) Weird Boyz on the planet were channeling WAAAGH! energy into this one big Warboss
 

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All 18 at once? I'm giving it to the Primarchs. It's just too much for even the emperor to take on. with Magnus to occupy his psychically, or at least blunt some of his force, that's 17 others to get in there physically. I don't think he could physically handle 17 Primarchs at once.

Individually? He'd smack any of them around one on one if able to throw around his full power.

Re the 'choked by an ork' story Forgeworld's Betrayal sheds more light on this. (This is the second or third time i've had to explain this and it's a common talking point, could we get it added to the stickied FAQ? I'll happily provide an in depth explanation, cited and sourced if so.)

Basically the event takes place on an ork world constructed out of scrap metal held together through dark age gravity tech. Think of an ork rok on a planetary scale. This world was noted for its inventive and powerful mekboys. Additionally you had nobs the size of dreadnoughts, so a warboss of these orks is going to be big.

The Emperor and his Custodes spearhead a luna wolves attack on the world. During the fighting the emperor and the custodes are separated from the luna wolves and subjected to the full fury of thousands of these extraordinary orks. Temporarily overwhelm by the sheer weight of fire (i ascribe it to the emperors psychic shields temporarily overloading, much like a titan's void shields) a warboss manages to wrap its hands about the emperors neck.

Almost immediately Horus is there and he proceeds to chop the ork's arms off. There's no mention of the emperor being in mortal danger or that the ork was chocking the life out of him. After the battle the Emperor singlehandedly disables the gravity device and closes the resulting warp rift/black hole thing that shutting it off causes.
 

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I think that given Orks' biology they might simply never stop growing- the reason we see tiny(comparatively) Orks today is because they generally die on battlefields rather than lord over entire Waaaaagh! Worlds. The more they fight, the bigger they get. And the rulers of an Ork planet would have to have fought quite a bit.

Don't quote me on that, IDK if it's even close to the mark but it sounds like it could be.
 

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That's reading way more into it than I did, to me 'struggling to choke' and 'saved by Horus' was enough for me to draw the conclusion I did. But if you think otherwise then that's down to you.
As I said, something else could have been distracting or weakening the Emperor's power. He's the greatest psyker that humanity has (and perhaps beyond). I don't think an Ork would be able to choke him. Maybe the Ork was some sort of pariah?

can you imagine the point cost of that squad?
From Horus Heresy--Betrayal we know that Horus is 500 points, Angron is 400, Fulgrim is 380, and Mortarion is 425.

So I'd guess somewhere around 7500 points?

Re the 'choked by an ork' story Forgeworld's Betrayal sheds more light on this.
I sat down and read the book in a single night. I missed out a whole lot (particularly all the new Legion units, dear God!) Could you toss me a bone and give me a page number? Seems like a lot of fluff nuggets are in the story.
 

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Why were those Orks of such incredible size? Were they drunk on WAAAGH! energy?
I''d think I was likely Gravity rather than waagh voodoo, otherwise they would have to voodoo most orks on the planet

Orks are products of their environment (nearly as much as nids), and like to test themselves to prove they "is the the strongest"

If the gravity as stronger they would be required to grow more muscle mass in order to complete the same tasks. As a result they would grow stronger and larger

Its the opposite of current space flight. in a zero G environment astronauts quickly lose muscle ass as they are not used as much and quickly lose bone mass as a dense skeleton is not needed to fight against gravity.

Science Wins!


On topic the primarchs could win, the BIG could in 1 v 1 vs any but not all 18 (19 if you count Omegron). Well likely it would be 16 as Curze would just turn up to stab in the back, and Alpharius is planning something instead
 

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I sat down and read the book in a single night. I missed out a whole lot (particularly all the new Legion units, dear God!) Could you toss me a bone and give me a page number? Seems like a lot of fluff nuggets are in the story.
Page 81, The Gorro Hollowing.

There's heaps of little fluff nuggets in the book, i highly recommend going back and rereading it in depth. You've got the construction of the Astronomicon, the first Black Ships and all sorts of lovely little bits.

Having just reread that section i can supply some more detail to everyone else. Gorro was ruled by the mekboys, who had (invented or pirated) a new kind of more powerful plasma technology, unseen since.

These orks, some not only larger than dreadnoughts were also bionically enhanced. Their weapons 'burned through power armour like a candle through parchment'. During the fighting the emperor was not only separated from the luna wolves but from the custodes themselves. 'Alone he slew hundreds until a blast from an ork plasma weapon opened his guard and one of the ork leaders seized him'. 'The tales say the ork's strength was so great that as it took hold of the Emperor it buckled his armour.'

So very advanced, very large, very dangerous orks. Note however that the emperor was not being chocked nor in mortal peril.

@Monty

The higher the orkoid population the smarter and larger they get, the more advanced feats of technology they're capable of. This orkoid empire was near the size of Ullanor, with the added advantage of some relic dark age tech never seen before or since.
 

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I don't know if we can really answer this. We've seen many of the Primarchs fight, seen them do physical feats (didn't Vulkan flip over a Predator tank?), and seen what sort of punishment they can take. Of the Emperor, however, we haven't really seen him in action. And not in any real detail.

There are too many blanks. All 18 of them may walk over him or the Emperor could crush them in an instant.
Vulkan flipped a tank?



Angron held up a Warhound titan from crushing Lorgar (Aaron Dembski Bowden's Betrayer) for a dozen seconds or so.
 

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Vulkan flipped a tank?

Angron held up a Warhound titan from crushing Lorgar (Aaron Dembski Bowden's Betrayer) for a dozen seconds or so.
Well, flipping something is definitely different than bracing and holding something up.

Age of Darkness has Vulkan flipping over a Demolisher and "Vulkan was enraged, battering tanks aside like children’s toys."

The text also says that there's little doubt with Ferrus dead, Vulkan is the physically strongest Primarch.

So that means either 1. Holding up the Warhound's leg wasn't as hard as battering aside tanks or 2. Vulkan can do feats that exceed battering tanks around like children's toys or....3. Both.

A Warhound weighs 410 tons. Say, a third of the weight is on the other leg still? That means Angron was holding up 270 tons?

I don't have my experience holding weight (not lifting) weight above my head. Nor with flipping heavy, tank like objects.

I'd figure holding up 4x the weight would be harder than flipping a tank, but even a Primarch couldn't really get a solid grip on a tank, either...

It's getting really late and I'm starting to ramble...
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
Thanks for all the input guys.

The Ork that buckles the Emp's armour could be the Warboss of Warbosses, an Ork who'd make Ghazkull look like a grot.

Also, it might be possible for an Ork Warboss to serve as a nexus of WAAAGH! energy generated by surrounding Orks (all the WAAAGH! energy is concentrated in him a la Chaos-buffed Horus in his duel with the Emp).

It would be plausible for a Warboss psychically empowered by millions of other Orks to challenge the Emperor
 

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It would have to go to the Primarchs.

Take into account that in some cases individual Primarchs surpassed the Emperor in aspects of power:

Codex: Imperialis and 6th edn Rulebook said:
... He [the Emperor] created twenty super-human creatures, twenty beings whose powers equalled, and in some respects exceeded, his own.
And also a passage from Angel Exterminatus:

Ebook page 742 said:
...I hope that one day Magnus will return to me again, for he sees much that I do not.
Whilst the latter is hardly conclusive, it does suggest that Magnus's abilities in some form or another do surpass the Emperor's. As much can be gleaned from A Thousand Sons as well. Regardless, the former quote categorically states that in some respects the power of the Primarchs exceeded that of the Emperor. So all eighteen against him? It would surely have to go to the Primarchs.
 
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