[Khorne Aggression]

Hey guys, just had a quick question.

The book says that Characters cannot refuse a challenge, does that mean I can't accept the challenge with a Champion instead?

 

[Cheese meister]

from the top of my head yes this is the case sorry i don't have my book with me at the moment a darned freind holds it in his posession

 

[Putch.]

Yes, a champ cannot take the challenge if a character of any descritption is present. But if you have a unit without a character then the champion also has to issue and accept challenges.

 

[Khorne Aggression]

I usually field blocks of 20 Warriors w/ Sorc or Exalted Heroes, and I played that the Sorc or Hero takes the challenge. Just wanted to clarify for sure!

Thanks

 

[Tim/Steve]

I dont see why the champ can't accept instead.. its certainly how we play at our FLGS. It can only happen in the opponent's turn (since its his option to challenge first in his turn) but if your champ accepts then the character has not broken its rules- it didnt issue a challenge because it could not do so (there's already a challenge being fought) and it did not refuse the challenge, someone else accepted instead.... in the same way that its not cheating to have 2 WoC characters in the same unit. You can pick which one issues the challenge and which accepts challenges without breaking the rules.

 

[Critta]

Check the Warriors of Chaos FAQ, first question.

Q: "Does the compulsion to issue and accept challenges apply to all models or only to models with the Eye of the Gods special rule? (p43)"

A: It applies to all models capable of issuing challenges.

To me, this means since 8th that you can readily make or accept challenges with your champion if you would prefer, the rule effects all models who are capable - and there is nothing in the rule which states that a specific model effected by the rule must take precedence. Thus it is upto you.

 

[Drax]

Check the Warriors of Chaos FAQ, first question.

Q: "Does the compulsion to issue and accept challenges apply to all models or only to models with the Eye of the Gods special rule? (p43)"

A: It applies to all models capable of issuing challenges.

To me, this means since 8th that you can readily make or accept challenges with your champion if you would prefer, the rule effects all models who are capable - and there is nothing in the rule which states that a specific model effected by the rule must take precedence. Thus it is upto you.

i'd agree with that and it's something i've been considering to help with the Underdog vp rules against the right character - i'd rather get an extra 50 vps than a random effect

 

[Barnster]

Your champion can't accept if theres a character present, as such you have to be careful with your sorcerors, they are better than most magic users but are still pretty squishy. The champion takes a back set to let his betters step forward

The rule is there to demonstrate chaos characters wanting to kill the best of the enemy and thus gain favour from the gods

 

[Dave T Hobbit]

Your champion can't accept if theres a character present....

That is not my reading of the Army Book or the FAQ. As far as I am aware the only restriction applied is that either the character or the champion must accept the challenge.

Can you expand your reasoning.

 

[Tim/Steve]

Your champion can't accept if theres a character present,

???
As far as I was aware the rules were that characters "couldn't decline", not "must accept".... I havent seen anything yet which stops a champ accepting instead of a character.

 

[The Son of Horus]

It specifically says that characters cannot refuse challenges. That doesn't prohibit a champion from accepting a challenge in their stead. It also doesn't prohibit a champion from issuing a challenge instead of the character-- it says that "any model able to do so" must issue a challenge. Since you can only have one challenge per combat, there's nothing stopping you from sending a unit champion to go fight something ridiculous that your Hero or Lord can't handle (and to be fair, there's not a lot out there that fits that description, but sometimes you also want your Lord to sweep ranks and deal with the character later).

On a similar vein, it says that characters cannot refuse challenges, but a unit champion is not a character, but rather simply a model that can fight in challenges. If you have a unit champion in the unit, I don't see why the unit champion can't refuse a challenge.

 

[Barnster]

The rules expressly state that chaos characters may not refuse a challenge, despite their ability to challenge, champions are not characters.

Thats how they have run it in WD when chaos has been present, not that thats the best guide to rules. I can see others point of view but i think its a clash of RAW and RAI

 

[Tim/Steve]

The rules expressly state that chaos characters may not refuse a challenge, despite their ability to challenge, champions are not characters.

Thats how they have run it in WD when chaos has been present, not that thats the best guide to rules. I can see others point of view but i think its a clash of RAW and RAI

*sigh*
You have language and terminology mixed up I'm afraid. You can have a character that does not fight in a challenge without refusing a challenge- refusing a challenge is the specific case when no-one ansers the challenge at all... a champion accepting the challenge means that its impossible for anyone to have refused it- its not that you are decling with characters to be able to accept with the champion.


WD isnt just an iffy sorce of rules, its almost an absurd one... almost every report has multiple blatant errors, which is just one of the parts of WD that wind me up more then any other.

 

[Critta]

Check the Warriors of Chaos FAQ, first question.

Q: "Does the compulsion to issue and accept challenges apply to all models or only to models with the Eye of the Gods special rule? (p43)"

A: It applies to all models capable of issuing challenges.

To me, this means since 8th that you can readily make or accept challenges with your champion if you would prefer, the rule effects all models who are capable - and there is nothing in the rule which states that a specific model effected by the rule must take precedence. Thus it is upto you.

Barnster, as it seems you didn't read this the first time round. I'm quoting it and hoping you read it if I point you directly at it. From the 8th Ed WoC FAQ.

Champions are models capable of accepting challenges, thus the rule effects them too. I don't see how this is unclear since this update to the rules in the FAQ.

 

[Barnster]

I've seen that many many times. I took that to mean that if no characters were present then champions are tied to the must challenge rule, as well as thing like ogre champions and the like.

From the GW website article concerning chaos characters

"All Chaos characters, except for Galrauch, Kholek Suneater and Daemon Princes, are subject to the scrutiny of the Eye of the Gods, and must fight in challenges if the opportunity presents itself. "

I'm going on how we have played the rule in the past as well, and what staff in GW said when i had the same doubts. TBH if thats how you guys read it fair enough

 

[Dave T Hobbit]

I've seen that many many times. I took that to mean that if no characters were present then champions are tied to the must challange rule, as well as thing like ogre champions and the like.

I can see the reasoning; however, if you take a unit with several characters then only one of them can fight the challenge without the others counting as refusing (unless WoC get to field all their characters in the same challenge: overkill!)

I am more intrigued that they did not disallow the "hide in the ranks like a coward" rule for WoC.

 

[Critta]

Have you asked those same GW staff since that FAQ was release?

In 7th, given the rules and FAQ's at the time, I agree there was still some ambiguity, with that Q&A in the new FAQ I'm not sure how you can read it that way, surely if they had meant what you are describing, the answer would have read more like:

A "It applies to champions only if there are no characters with the Eye of the Gods rule in the unit"

I honestly don't see how that particular statement could be read any other way...

 

[Sethis]

Refusing a challenge, as has been stated, means something very specific i.e.

1. The enemy issues a challenge with an eligible character
2. You have an eligible character who can accept
3. You choose not to accept with an eligible character (including unit champions)
4. The challenge goes unanswered
5. The enemy may choose a non-champion character who must be placed in the back rank of your unit. This model has "refused the challenge" and cannot attack or grant his leadership to any checks until he is placed back in the front rank.

That is an exact list of what consists of "refusing a challenge". The problem is that so long as a Warriors of Chaos unit has any model capable of fighting in a challenge, stage 3 (and consequently any stage after it) cannot happen for any reason. You MUST accept a challenge with a model capable of doing so if possible and this includes a champion.

Otherwise you would never, ever see Sorcerers in units, because they'd be forced to accept every single challenge and get totally massacred in the first round of combat, rather than what happens now, where the champion accepts (and dies) but there is no second round of combat because the warriors crushed everything in their way. Sorcerer lives! :laugh:

 

[Blue Liger]

With challenges with WOC you must accept all challenges with them until all that can accept one are dead I did this in a large mass battle our store had with a treeman ancient, he had a Chaos Lord and Level Sorceror and a champion in there all 3 died first as they had to accept the challenges then the 80 chosen warriors chopped the Treeman Ancient to bits