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The setting is frozen at the Time of Ending, even moving the clock forward a single century would realistically see the end of the Imperium. Remember, the theme behind Warhammer 40,000 isn't that the Imperium will one day emerge triumphant. It's the chronicle of how humanity ends, inch by inch. If you allow progression there won't be an Imperium left to be the protagonists.
I'm saying wouldn't it be crazy if they did it. All these "doomsday" franchises never have the balls to legitimately pull the trigger. Let the Imperium be destroyed. Let a new status quo be established with the remanents. You could bring the Primarchs back as trying to restore humanity in a Chaos controlled universe. Hell you could even bring back the Emperor in those conditions. Legions lost. Terra lost. Stop the bullshit bluffing and pull the trigger. It could be one of a kind. Who wouldn't like to see a story of the battle to retake Holy Terra, Mars, and the System?


I don't think complaining about minor elements of a HH novel can be realistically compared to wanting a major timeline progression across the whole setting. Just because I don't want the timeline to advance doesn't mean I have to like and enjoy all plot developments that are incorporated into the setting.
What happened with Fulgrim will not be the end. Look at the Heresy series. The books started off amazing (accept for the boring DA ones). Now look at them? The series has started to contradict itself more and more. Huge character changes are happening WITHIN A SERIES MEANT TO EXPLAIN THESE CHARACTERS!!!! The series, if you started a pole, you would find out that most fans want to see the conclusion because it feels more and more drawn out. Most of the books that have come out recently I don't give a shit about. How does knowing about the Gal Vorbak's destruction on Calth progress the overall storyline? That's a mini story at best, it shouldn't be an entire book and next chapter in the series. How many books have we had about the Calth battle now? How about we get back to Horus and the actual invasion. They are actually reprinting old anthologies now to draw this out even more. You realize that the first book came out 2006. With 2014, your telling me it's taken almost 8 years to tell this story? And the list of books to come out in 2014 don't have the Seige storyline so let make that 2015 minimum. How much more bulllshit and filler stories are they coming out with now?

I disagree. The writers have an almost endless opportunity to create new stories and incorporate them into the setting. They've been doing it for decades, and will continue to do so.
I use to think the same. To be honest though, they don't have "endless opportunity" because they can't project or progress forward, only into the past. That's regression. That means every story can only reference past events. They can't ever do a pulp fiction like tale and go forward past 999.M41. Also they keep reprinting old stories or updating old books with new covers and selling them. That to me is a sure sign of running out of material. It's seems it's either that or changing or retconning fluff.

And I would argue that some Primarchs lack a solid characterisation because of a lack of talent in the BL author-pool, not because of the nature of the setting.
I would agree to an extent. I think if there was more consistency with the fluff, the writers wouldn't have the ability to screw things up. That's why you have solid characterizations for popular characters so the writers have to adjust the environment to the character and not the character to the environment.
 

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saying wouldn't it be crazy if they did it. All these "doomsday" franchises never have the balls to legitimately pull the trigger. Let the Imperium be destroyed. Let a new status quo be established with the remanents. You could bring the Primarchs back as trying to restore humanity in a Chaos controlled universe. Hell you could even bring back the Emperor in those conditions. Legions lost. Terra lost. Stop the bullshit bluffing and pull the trigger. It could be one of a kind. Who wouldn't like to see a story of the battle to retake Holy Terra, Mars, and the System?
You mean retake them from the swirling mess of nothing they've become by the opening of the Webway portal?

I think you maybe don't understand what a doomsday scenario is, or the drastic effect it would have on 40k. The end of the Imperium is the end of Mankind, it is the end of humanity and therefore every human character. It's hard to have a story that is compelling and engaging to people that doesn't involve humans (it can be done, but it takes way more talent than GW/BL have and really doesn't work as a shift). It's also hard to run a wargame with out a 'home' team, and regardless of whether or not you play them the Imperium is the home team. Every other race is defined by their relationship to the Imperium as much as by their own character. Whole races barely interact with each other, and have little reason to. Remove the Imperium and you remove the bread that's holding the setting together, sure the bits that are left are tasty but they're not a sandwich. There is no 40k without the Imperium and there is no Imperium in 41k.

I use to think the same. To be honest though, they don't have "endless opportunity" because they can't project or progress forward, only into the past. That's regression. That means every story can only reference past events.
Look at the Gaunt's Ghosts, Ravenor/Eisenhorn and Cain books. Each and every one is set in the past of 40k. Each and everyone is technically a past event, some are even told as past events. Each and every one is also compelling and progressive. Where is the regression in the Sabbat World's Crusade? You can't even say with absolute certainty who will win, despite it being technically history. That's because 40k's history is so vast that absolutely epic stories can disappear into it, only to be pulled out by any writer with the skill and drive to do so. There are entire crusades/strange discoveries/first encounters, the interesting lives and violent deaths of billions of people, out their to be explored. To say that simply because a story is set in the past (never mind a wholly fictional and barely revealed past) means it can't be engaging is absolute rubbish. That many writers choose (or are forced) to make their novel a expansion on some already vaguely known story doesn't mean that that's all they can do, and the best clearly don't do that/
 

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The Primarchs were never meant to be a part of "modern" 40K lore as it was laid down at the start of 2nd Edition. They, and the Horus Heresy in general, were supposed to be a part of the long forgotten past.


What makes that seem weird to younger/newer players to the game is that the Horus Heresy is more accessible than the bog-standard game fluff these days. In the 40K universe, the primarchs still don't really matter. Not even the daemon ones (Lorgar has done what, write a book for ten thousand years?).
 

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I agree this would be totally epic... :) I think my favorite would be Russ, maybe the Lion... Or... Sweet Jesus... if they came back together... :) Awesome stuff...
 

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The Primarchs were never meant to be a part of "modern" 40K lore as it was laid down at the start of 2nd Edition. They, and the Horus Heresy in general, were supposed to be a part of the long forgotten past.
Quite true bro, but I think 40k players have gotten hooked on the Horus Heresy and they want to know more about it. Similar to the LOTR fab that caught GW during the time LOTR Trilogy was in theatres so to is Horus Heresy grabbing folks attention while the going is good. I would not be surprised if they released "Heresy-themed Models;" they may already have. Give it time it will die when Gaunt and Cain actually have a good adventure.

The end of the Imperium is the end of Mankind, it is the end of humanity and therefore every human character..........There is no 40k without the Imperium and there is no Imperium in 41k.
Good sir I would challenge you on that, how do we know there is no Imperium of Man going into the 41st Millenia? Unless I have missed something the Imperium is still in existence right up to the 41st Millenia, and even hints at future events, characters, and races of the future. I have yet to read any Lore, other than the "End Times" rubbish, that tells me such. Therefore I would say no, the Imperium will contiue to exist; if with less territory and power. If anything the future might bring our missing Primarchs back, or finish off untold stories with very "Grey" endings.

Also if the Imperium was destroyed, hypothetically and quite a large feat to undertake, would Mankind really disappear? They may take a new name, new face, new story but do you think they would have an extinction level event that the Eldar suffered? I for one am calling BS on the writers! The Eldar are still in existence, both Good and Evil, after untold trillions of dead and a new Choas God surfacing to power. Additionally writers of other Game Systems have always kept the human race alive; it is an natural reflex. Magic: The Gather saved the human race from the Kami back in "Champions of Kamiguwa; and they brought them back in a new empire with even more power than before. Mass Effect 3 saw humanity raped and still we survived and even thrived (depending on the ending you choose). The list is endless, but we as humans naturally want to survive, and thus don't really try and think on our mutual destruction (with the exception of the whack jobs).
 

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Good sir I would challenge you on that, how do we know there is no Imperium of Man going into the 41st Millenia? Unless I have missed something the Imperium is still in existence right up to the 41st Millenia, and even hints at future events, characters, and races of the future. I have yet to read any Lore, other than the "End Times" rubbish, that tells me such.
So aside from the fact that 40k is explictedly described as the end of the Imperium you see no reason to believe that moving the timeline forward would end the Imperium? 40k is the Time of Ending, therefore anything after that occurs after the End. Sure that probably doesn't happen the second the clock ticks over to 41k but that's not really relavent. I didn't use 41k in the strictly chronological sense but rather as a convinient shorthand for an advanced timeline.

or finish off untold stories with very "Grey" endings.
You can't finish off a dozen different appocalpyse storylines in a 'grey' fashion. The major storylines require a certain type of event to be considered finished and those events aren't ones that a survivable.

They may take a new name, new face, new story but do you think they would have an extinction level event that the Eldar suffered?
1) Yes they would have an extinction event equivalent to the Eldar. The Webway portal under Terra will consume the sector at the very least, if not more.
2) Whether or not humanity survives in some form depends on who exactly wins. The most likely scenario sees humans survive primarily as Chaos worshippers (which I don't really view as being human any more) and in scattered groups of no real significance to the galaxy at large. Humanity will cease to exist in any meaningful way.

The Eldar are still in existence, both Good and Evil, after untold trillions of dead and a new Choas God surfacing to power.
How did the Eldar survive? They fled. They either fled their empire before it fell or as it was doing so. They fled to the corners of the galaxy and a parallel dimension. Can humanity do this? No. They cannot flee in meaningful way to the Webway or any other dimension and there is no corner of the galaxy safe from their enemies. The Eldar fell to themselves, the Imperium will fall to others. That's a completely different scenario.

Additionally writers of other Game Systems have always kept the human race alive; it is an natural reflex. Magic: The Gather saved the human race from the Kami back in "Champions of Kamiguwa; and they brought them back in a new empire with even more power than before. Mass Effect 3 saw humanity raped and still we survived and even thrived (depending on the ending you choose). The list is endless, but we as humans naturally want to survive, and thus don't really try and think on our mutual destruction (with the exception of the whack jobs).
Humanity wins in those examples. Humanity always survives because humanity always wins. And humanity always wins because we need them to survive. Humanity isn't going to win 40k. This is exactly why they won't move the timeline forward, because humanity can't win and therefore humanity won't survive. As you say, no one wants to think about how ultimatley futile it all is and thus no one will enjoy an advanced timeline.
 

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I'd like to throw the weight of my opinion, for what its worth, behind MEQ's stance. The entire setting of 40k is geared to be the end of humanity, that is how 40k is unique. As ADB said: "The theme behind Warhammer 40,000 isn't that the Imperium will one day emerge triumphant. It's the chronicle of how humanity ends, inch by inch".

Within the lore it has consistently been stated that if the Emperor dies, humanity falls. Not only because of the failure of the Astronomican but because he is the only thing preventing humanity embracing Chaos en masse. And that isn't even taking into account the plethora of other internal and external threats present.
 

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-I also not see how the IOM can get out of this kerfuffle, chaos nids necrons orks... however the downfall will take a while, as such there might be some fighting left in the next millenium.
-The only reference I heard of supporting mankind in the 41st Millenium are the writings of Cain ?
-GW might bring the primarchs back when sales drop, however fluff wise I am not convinced primarchs returning will be a boon for mankind as the HH learned us they tend to be emotionally unstable
 

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Well........
If u think about it it would result in a massive civil war our it would invite all the best of chaos and other enemies to unite against the emperor. In the end the emperor would be cooked along with every single space marines chapter unless they turned which for some chapters it is impossible for them to turn against the emperor like the Grey Knights. But on the other hand there might just be a huge celebration.
 

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I'd like to throw the weight of my opinion, for what its worth, behind MEQ's stance. The entire setting of 40k is geared to be the end of humanity, that is how 40k is unique. As ADB said: "The theme behind Warhammer 40,000 isn't that the Imperium will one day emerge triumphant. It's the chronicle of how humanity ends, inch by inch".

Within the lore it has consistently been stated that if the Emperor dies, humanity falls. Not only because of the failure of the Astronomican but because he is the only thing preventing humanity embracing Chaos en masse. And that isn't even taking into account the plethora of other internal and external threats present.
I like the idea of it being Humanity's slow fall to oblivion. Very dark. More and more threats emerge - the Tyranids being a masterstroke in this respect IMO.

See, I don't think you're essentially right in the second part. It may have originally been how it was in fluff, but now the HH books have delved into the past, they have underlined a few (key) points of previous fluff that I know think are invalid.

First, the Astronomican existed well before the Golden Throne. How? No idea. It certainly didn't take all the Emperors power back then. How do we know this? Multiple references in Multiple books - arguably to multiple golden thrones, in Mechanicum and in A Thousand Sons...I find references to be clashing. On one hand, it's not yet working properly by the time Mars goes to war - and it's clearly the golden throne - yet it's being used in the webway project in ATS.

Second, He's not the only thing preventing humanity embracing Chaos en masse. If this was the case, it would have happened before he took power and started fighting back against Chaos from the fore.
 

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First, the Astronomican existed well before the Golden Throne. How? No idea. It certainly didn't take all the Emperors power back then. How do we know this? Multiple references in Multiple books - arguably to multiple golden thrones, in Mechanicum and in A Thousand Sons...I find references to be clashing. On one hand, it's not yet working properly by the time Mars goes to war - and it's clearly the golden throne - yet it's being used in the webway project in ATS.
It's been theorized that the Emperor in his prime was able to direct the Astronomican while performing his other duties.

Second, He's not the only thing preventing humanity embracing Chaos en masse. If this was the case, it would have happened before he took power and started fighting back against Chaos from the fore."
He does in the sense that he unintentionally created a new religion for the masses to follow thus making them not likely to seek out other 'meanings' of life.

In addition, his instructions for the Inquisition to suppress any and all knowledge of chaos from the general masses helps humanity not succumb to chaos as they probably would in a religion-free universe/a universe filled with scary aliens.

Also, he is actively keeping a large portal closed (underneath the Palace of Terra) to prevent a massive and never ending horde of daemons from breaking into reality. It can be argued that because they are trying to enter from a breach in the Webway (a physical conduit tied to the warp), the portal will never be closed not unless the Eldar get involved (which even if they wanted to, the chances of them doing so in an extremely xenophobic human empire are next to impossible).
 

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It's been theorized that the Emperor in his prime was able to direct the Astronomican while performing his other duties.
Indeed, but this is a new cannon vs old cannon type thing. Formerly, he had to direct the majority of his power towards it. Now, he could do it while doing other things. Contradictory. Do we follow old 40k cannon or BL fluff?

He does in the sense that he unintentionally created a new religion for the masses to follow thus making them not likely to seek out other 'meanings' of life.

In addition, his instructions for the Inquisition to suppress any and all knowledge of chaos from the general masses helps humanity not succumb to chaos as they probably would in a religion-free universe/a universe filled with scary aliens.
Fair point. Ordo Malleus was created under his direct orders. I however think he'd be pretty pissed at the Lectitio Divinatus and the Ecclesiarchy.

Also, he is actively keeping a large portal closed (underneath the Palace of Terra) to prevent a massive and never ending horde of daemons from breaking into reality. It can be argued that because they are trying to enter from a breach in the Webway (a physical conduit tied to the warp), the portal will never be closed not unless the Eldar get involved (which even if they wanted to, the chances of them doing so in an extremely xenophobic human empire are next to impossible).
Again, fair point but a little bit removed from the discussion about the Astronomican. He could keep an entire portal safe previously. It could be argued that just the opening might indeed be easier. Further, if the webway is a seperate dimension to warp space or real space, how are the demons there?
 

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Indeed, but this is a new cannon vs old cannon type thing. Formerly, he had to direct the majority of his power towards it. Now, he could do it while doing other things. Contradictory. Do we follow old 40k cannon or BL fluff?
How do you suppose the Astrominican was powered in any of the previous fluff prior to him being entombed on the Golden Throne? Also if I am not mistaken, the Emperor never empowered the Astromincan, rather he directed its powers as no one other than him had enough strength and mastery of the warp to control such vast amounts of power.

Again, fair point but a little bit removed from the discussion about the Astronomican. He could keep an entire portal safe previously. It could be argued that just the opening might indeed be easier. Further, if the webway is a seperate dimension to warp space or real space, how are the demons there?

The tear in the Webway was kept at bay by the Sigillite while the Emperor did battle with Horus aboard the Vengeful Spirit. Malcador withered away upon the Emperor's return. So now the Emperor is keeping it closed. It's that simple.

The Webway is made of Wraithbone which is warp matter. The webway is a tunnel through the warp so it's not purely physical I suppose. But more importantly, Chaos can manifest in any dimension most likely even the ones the Necrons constructed. Khorne's bloodhound that hunts for prey it's marked through any of the various dimensions comes to mind.
 

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Indeed, but this is a new cannon vs old cannon type thing. Formerly, he had to direct the majority of his power towards it.

Further, if the webway is a seperate dimension to warp space or real space, how are the demons there?
Can you let me know about what 'old cannon' states it required the majority of his power? I'm not familiar enough with the old cannon to argue one way or another. What the Emperor can and cannot do pre and post interrment on the Golden Throne is pretty confusing... how he was able to perform the soul bindings while he was out on the GC for decades at a time and direct the Astronomican half-way across the universe while having a giant Ork standing on his neck, these things confuse me, but hey, it's the Big E. I can see the direction of the Astronmican being a minor thing for him, considering the wattage really comes from the thousands of psykers on terminal burn-out, but again, I'm not sure about the original fluff.

To my understanding, the Big E was knitting the Human Webway/Portal into the Eldar/Old Ones Webway, when it was foiled by Magnus breaking through and creating a tear between the two... this is what allows the demons from the Warp to pour into Terra, right in the place where the Astropathic Choir and the Astronomican are creating the largest psychic beacons in the galaxy to attract every nasty, including the Nids evidently, to a party.
 

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Now I have not read the whole thread, and somebody has probably already posted a point that would refute this, but I think it would be cool to advance the timeline a bit and bring back the Primarchs for a round two war, kind of like a Ragnarok scenario. I honestly have not read any of the novels, but from what I understand (If I miss any, feel free to correct me):

Guilliman was put in stasis at the point of death, and I believe I read somewhere that some believe his wounds are slowly regenerating

Lion El Johnson is somewhere on the Rock or whatever

Russ has been busy bitch slapping chaos forces in the eye of terror with the 13th company or something

Dorn got his hand cut off. I highly doubt that is enough to kill a Primarch

Corax also is probably cracking skulls in the eye of terror

Sanguinis. Well that sucker died. Who knows, maybe he is regenerating in his tomb like Guilliman

Vulcan is a perpetual, from what a buddy tells me and is almost invincible

Ferrus Manus had his head cut off. However I read somewhere that the living metal from that giant worm dragon thing he killed filled his entire body on the inside, so I would like to think his head just has to be brought to his body to be reattached

Khan is hunting Dark Eldar scum in the warp

Horus was killed, however Abaddon is his clone and has ascended to gain more power than Horus ever had

Alpharius/Omegon one was possibly killed, while from what I understand, one of them could still be a kind of deep cover loyalist

Lorgar is a Daemon Prince...so still alive

Angron....Daemon Prince

Fulgrim....Daemon Prince

Perturabo....Daemon Prince

Magnus....Daemon Prince

Mortarion....Daemon Prince

Kurze was never confirmed to be killed, possibly has repented his actions in the heresy if still alive, might have faked his death

Therefore, none of them in my mind are actually dead.

I dunno, take what I think here with a grain of salt, as I have never really researched into any of this really. This is just stuff I have read on wikis, heard from buddies that are really into the novels etc. In my mind, all the Primarchs are going to return after the Emperor dies on the throne and is reborn into a new body. Then a massive heresy 2.0 war will start. Thats what I would like to see at least.

Again this is just what I imagine would be the next step. Just my two cents really.
 

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Russ has been busy bitch slapping chaos forces in the eye of terror with the 13th company or something
Plus with some of them mentioning that they will return when humanity needs them the most (Russ is supposed to return for the Wolf Time or something that is in my mind a war to decide the final fate of the galaxy) etc etc etc

And not to mention that each Black Crusade has pushed closer and closer to Terra. The next one will break through! Muahahahaha
 

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Actually, it would be cool to see the traiter legions reach Terra, Abaddon kills the Emperor on the Golden Throne, the Webway opens up and releases hordes of Daemons, and on the other edge of the galaxy, the Emperor is reborn, the loyal Primarchs return to his side, and then Begin a crusade to retake Terra from the forces of Chaos, and find a way to collapse the Webway portal (or even use it to return to Terra) in a kind of reversal of the Horus Heresy.
 

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Actually, it would be cool to see the traiter legions reach Terra, Abaddon kills the Emperor on the Golden Throne, the Webway opens up and releases hordes of Daemons, and on the other edge of the galaxy, the Emperor is reborn, the loyal Primarchs return to his side, and then Begin a crusade to retake Terra from the forces of Chaos, and find a way to collapse the Webway portal (or even use it to return to Terra) in a kind of reversal of the Horus Heresy.
So basically Unification Wars 2.0?
 

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Pretty much. I think that story would be pretty bad ass, and it would make for a pretty awesome campaign for gaming purposes, would probably get a bunch of old fans back into the hobby, bring new fans to the hobby and keep interest for those already in it. Not to mention all the novels they could make etc etc.

Ps, I apologize for kind of going on a rant haha.
 

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Few issues:
1: Curze is dead. No uncertainty there; his head was removed.

2: Guilliman was put into a stasis field at the moment of his death. Even if he isn't actually dead, he is functionally dead, and time doesn't move within the field so he couldn't possibly be healing. For all intents and purposes, he is very much dead.

3: Sang is kaput. No potential healing, just dead.

4: Unfortunately no terminator 2 regeneration for Manus

5: They only managed to recover one of Dorn's hands and his death is pretty much given.

6: Yup, Horus is dead. Nope, Abby isn't a clone. Forgot my scouter at home, so I couldn't say for sure, but........ maybe?
 
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