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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
my question is simply why does everyone love chaxax so very much :ireful2: it's really annoying he is simply crap now he is really easy to deal with to just refuse the challenge frm him slap him in the face with a shed load of attacks and watch him go squish compared to gor-rok who is 120pts cheaper and means you count as defending an obstacle great-1 to hit my saurus sold and you have to re-roll to wound him that 120pts buys you a scar vet with shiny gubbins meaning another 4 s5 attack a turn
 

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Lets look at a scenario here, A unit of chaos warriors charges your temple guard, led by a chaos lord. Chakax will challenge, chaos lord must accept. Chakax will most likely beat that lord into the ground. Denying him the ability to maul your temple guard with him. Gor-rok will make them -1 to hit. Chaos warriors still hit them on 4's. chakax= win.
 

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Declining challenges is not a good thing- you dont want to lose the higher Ld or possibly a BSB (if you decline its not your choice what gets relagated), especially when you are fighting the opponents top unit (and any unit with Khakax in is likely to be nudging up towords 1000pts).

For defence Khakax is far far better- if I send 3 cannonballs at your slaan every turn of a long game you want to have the look out sir re-roll because otherwise one unlucky roll (and a failed ward) could see your slaan blown to pieces... its not even that unlikely: something like 4-5% of shots that pass through your slaan will kill him outright.


On a personal note... I run an ogre tyrant that can take on pretty much any character in the game, but while Khakax scares me (he hasnt killed me yet, but its a worrying fight), Gor-Rok really doesnt. Khakax being in a unit means Im not sending anyone at that unit other then the most immense combat characters I can produce... I'm certainly not going in if all I have is a hero (even if he's pumped up for combat), but against Gor-Rok I know that a decent hero will take him down without too much trouble.
 

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Declining challenges is not a good thing- you dont want to lose the higher Ld or possibly a BSB (if you decline its not your choice what gets relagated), especially when you are fighting the opponents top unit (and any unit with Khakax in is likely to be nudging up towords 1000pts).
You don't actually lose the BSB bonus anymore. Or any bonus from the character, except for his LD. Refusing challenges isn't such a big deal, except for WoC and Bretonnians. The big thing about Chakax is his ability to simply stop enemy characters from even wanting to come near, as they would simply sit in the back, doing nothing. Temple guard are tough, and without a character doing a bit of damage, most units will have an extremely hard time making a dent.
 

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Shocker, I haden't seen those changes. They've changing things round quite a lot for refusing challenges and not being in the front rank. Since it came as a shock to me I thought I would point out- champions get no detremental effects for refusing challenges- as the book says they are able to, but not expected to take on challenges... I guess mages in units with only a champ to protect them are now pretty safe. If you challenge them they'll decline and the mage has to move back, if you dont the champ will challenge and try to pull attacks off the mage... good to know really.


The biggest problem I see with Khakax is that while he is awesome the temple guard arent nearly as good as they used to be. No longer being able to get a 2+ save really hurts them.. so Im not too sure its worth having a big block of them, or a beefy character to protect them any more...
 

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The biggest problem I see with Khakax is that while he is awesome the temple guard arent nearly as good as they used to be. No longer being able to get a 2+ save really hurts them.. so Im not too sure its worth having a big block of them, or a beefy character to protect them any more...
It's actually really bad, the Slann will take attacks off the second rank, and because they have halberds, they can't use their shields, so they only have a 4+/3+ save.
 

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Which is why you take lore of light and make them WS and I 10 with ASF and + 1 attack with banner of armour piercing hitting chaos knights on 3's re roll wound on 3's with a -3 modifier to there save and you'll have like 30 attacks
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
The thing is chaxax dies to pretty much any normal models now because of the number of attacks against him where as gor rok and his unit run right up to a unit and go slap we are harder to hit and i'm harder to kill
 

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If you take gor rok you should take lore of life and make his unit T8 with 4+ regen
That's assuming you get Throne of Vines *and* those two spells. Most opponents I know will just dispel Throne of Vines, and with Slann-cheese it's pretty easy to get the others.
 

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Longish post ahead, can't sleep due to my illness, so got typing again. Sorry if I mention stuff which is wrong or already mentioned (I did read it through and have said so in my post) and please don't flame me for making my personal comments and opinions.

There are a lot of problems with Lizardmen in general, they have been nurfed a fairi bit, and while they still have decent units in there, they are no longer as fun as they used to be. Temple Guard have no place on the table or an army list unless you are fielding a Slann or Lord Kroak. Reason being as follows: 1. They have a pathetic +5 Scaly Skin 2. Even with the shield and light armor that is a armour save of 3+, compared to other races special choices, that is terrible, seeing as they are a damn bodyguard unit! 3. They are expensive, at 16 points per normal figure, all you are buying is Halberd, light armour and Scared Duty special rule (redundant w/o Slann) and a massive, stunning 1 extra Initative. This is in comparison with Saurus Warrior which are 5 points cheaper, don't get Halberds (but get spears if you want) don't get Scared Duty and don't get light armour. But do a group of 40 Saurus Warriors together all equipped with Spears and you get a nice 50 attacks for 484 points. So, Temple Guard are thus too expensive, slightly, and very slightly, better Saurus Warriors. Sure they have an extra attack, but their Iniative is so low, they always strike last, thus they will of lost some by then, therefore retalliation is weaker. Some special choices in other races are pretty damn good, White Lions, Swordmasters, Rat Ogres, GreatSwords, Chaos Chosen, Grave Guard and so on. Bah I just wish they'd give them Heavy Armour and drop the sheilds or give them +4 Scaly Skin or something, they are suppose to be "Rare spawns" of Saurus, but the only difference is Temple Guard "spawn" have 1 better iniative... which isn't great, nor what I call "rare" and "sacred" :p Yes, I am bitter!

Chakax however is a terrific Hero killer, or lock-down unit. If you have a spare Hero slot, a Slann and a group of Temple Guard, add him to the unit and you have a real force to be feared. If you wanted to be cruel, you could give the Slann "Higher State of Consciousness" (becomes Etheral, so only Magical attacks hurt) couple that with "Unfathomal Presence" (Magic Res (3)) and the Slann is going to be pretty tough to kill, so that unit can go round smashing up units and allowing Chakax to lock down other units.

Chakax as a Hero killer: Firstly, Chakax has a great weapon, perfect for fighting other heroes, which is "The Stone Star Mace" firstly, it is a Great Weapon, so slap +2 Strength on Chakax, pushing his strength up to 7! Next when he hits a enemy unit in combat, that unit must reveal all magical items equipped on the unit. Finally, the best part of the Stone Star Mace is that when a Character uses a Magical Weapon against him, its bonuses/effects/buffs do not count against Chakax, therefore, if a Hero has a weapon that grants +2 extra attacks for example, they will not be able to add that to their base attack. Thus a weak hero in terms of "base" stats who is amazing due to his or her weapons are dragged down to their base stats. However, if the weapon was a "Special" weapon such as a Great Weapon, then the +2 strength a Great Weapon provides still sticks.

The next bit to Chakaxs "Hero Killing" prowess is "The Key to the Eternity Chamber" which, when Chakax is fighting in a challenge, he firstly gains a nice +5 Ward Save. Ontop of his +4 Armour save (pretty bad for a hero plus he has no armour of any type) he can avoid more than other heroes. Finally, the best bit, is that any hero he is in a challenge with, will ALWAYS strike last, even if he charged or the "Always Strikes First" rule, or has Initative 10 and so on. This means, with a bit of luck with rolls, Chakax can wound or even kill the hero, thus removing his bonuses to the squad/army OR his/her combat/magic prowess.

Chakax as a lock-down unit: Firstly he wears The Helm of the Prime Guardian which means no units with Scout rule may set up within 20" of Chakax, furthermore, any units that contain "hidden" models (one or two models used for extra punch) their presence must be declared as soon as they enter 20" of Chakax, that means a large advantage of the opponent has been lost. A Night Goblin Fanatic or Dark Elf Assassin, when un detected, in a unit, launched against a unit with a hero in, such as a BSB, can target the hero or BSB and come out of the shadows before stabbing them to death and vanishing again. Therefore, the ability for an opponent to "snipe" or "assassinate" a Hero or Lord (like a BSB or a Slann!) is removed. Thus this is wear "Lock down" starts. With this in mind, a knowledgable player might decide it is best to hold back his unit with his "hidden" models in until Chakax is dead, otherwise the element of surprise is lost and the model is less effective. This means a clever Lizardman player can keep a hard hitting, shock unit from killing off important figures and possibly keeping out an entire unit from engaging other parts of your army.

Second part of Chakax as a "lock down" unit is the fact he MUST issue a challenge to an enemy hero (I'm not sure if that also means Champions, but I assume so) therefore the challengee (is that a word?) has a choice of accepting it, and possibly loosing it due to Chakax pretty nifty anti-hero set up, or do you decline, get pushed back to the rear of the unit, not be able to help with attacks (as far as I know they can't) and unable to provide Leadership bonus for that round. Furthermore, next combat round, the challenge will be issued again, and again until Chakax is dead or the opponent hero is. Therefore, as mentioned before, units will simply avoid getting into that position, even if a unit is heading towards another target and not to Chakax (and his Temple Guard + Slann) getting too close to Chakax could result in a challenge and the cycle contiunes.

Bad things about Chakax, while he has 5 T and +4 Armour Save, that is nothing compared to some other heroes. Some heroes have both 5 T and 3/2+ armour save! Add to that Chakax not being able to buy or upgrade himself either with Light Armour (seriously, why can't Lizardmen wear light armour?! Heavy Armour + 5 Scaly Skin + Shield = Win <3 :D, not that it will ever happen) or with other magical items, he could still loose out to heroes who can, while Chakax negates Magical Weapons, he cannot negate, as I said, the Special Rules of the weapon nor can he negate magical armour or such. Therefore, carefully equipped hero with Heavy Armour and some other nice stuff could easily overcome Chakax. Secondly, Chakax only has 4 attacks, he also only has 2 Wounds. Lots of heroes have more than 4 attacks and 2 wounds. Therefore, Chakax must hit everytime during his "attack first" item and since he has 7 strength he needs that to help. However if he fails to kill or even wound the hero, he could be in big trouble. A perfect example of "trouble" is the Orc hero "Grimgor Ironhide" who, not only sports a WS of 8 (3 more than Chakax) a BS of 1 (1 more than Chakax) 3 wounds (1 more than Chakax) and 5 Iniative (2 more than Chakax) coupled with a staggering 7 Attacks, at strength 5, toughness of 5 and magical armour, if Chakax does not wack him down before Grimgor gets his hits in, then it is most likely (baring luck) all over for Chakax. Grimgor gets 7 attacks at 5 strength, 8 WS PLUS he Hates Everybody so he gets to reroll hits, plus he is Immune to Psychology and if it was not for The Stone Star Mace, his magical axe Gitsink would be the icing on the cake. Grimgor is the perfect example of what a Hero should be, and at a cost of £10, he is just stupidly good. I mean, only Kroq-Garr comes close to being similary stated, but he is £20 more expensive and has a mount. I wish GW would bring a similar "melee combat" hero to Lizardmen, cause frankly, Gor-Rock isn't THAT great.

Speaking of which Gor-Rock is a pretty "fun" unit in my eyes, stick him in a unit of Sarus adn watch him help out. His ability to shrug off Killing Blow (not affected by it, counts as normal wound) plus the fact any successful "to wound" rolls MUST be rerolled against him, means he can be a tough hero to beat. His sheild is huge, so he is counted as defending an obstacle, thus charging provides no benift when charged against him (but will do against models he is in). On top of the fact he gets to reroll all "failed to hit" rolls in the first round of close combat means he can assist with a few extra kills or wounds early on.

Over all, it comes down to play style, if you like using Slann and TG, go for Chakax, he is a beast as I explained. If however you don't play a Slann (Lord Kroak included) then feel free to go with Gor-Rock, he is the closest thing Lizardmen have to a "close combat damage dealer" but he is more of an all rounder, able to defend and attack, but he is pretty "average" in terms of his stats. Still, he is better than none in some cases!

Thanks for reading!
 

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If you take gor rok you should take lore of life and make his unit T8 with 4+ regen

Whenever I see you comment on a character or unit in the tactics section your comments are always- no offense- sort of useless, by that logic you go

Take a chaos lord with a build that just gives him as many attacks as he can get then take a lore of shadow sorc for okkams mindrazor. That just isnt logical. Sure its powerful but way to much relies on not only rolling the spell but it getting off. You want a unit or character that performs well all the time not in a random and highly unlikely cirumstance.
 

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Over all, it comes down to play style, if you like using Slann and TG, go for Chakax, he is a beast as I explained. If however you don't play a Slann (Lord Kroak included) then feel free to go with Gor-Rock, he is the closest thing Lizardmen have to a "close combat damage dealer" but he is more of an all rounder, able to defend and attack, but he is pretty "average" in terms of his stats. Still, he is better than none in some cases!

Thanks for reading!
Pretty good run down altogether :good:

Whenever I see you comment on a character or unit in the tactics section your comments are always- no offense- sort of useless, by that logic you go

Take a chaos lord with a build that just gives him as many attacks as he can get then take a lore of shadow sorc for okkams mindrazor. That just isnt logical. Sure its powerful but way to much relies on not only rolling the spell but it getting off. You want a unit or character that performs well all the time not in a random and highly unlikely cirumstance.
Slaan. They love the Lore of Life, they can have all the spells if they want, and they have ways of getting the spells off, being some of the best casters in the game short of special characters. If a Slaan wants it, it is far from an "unlikely circumstance" :p.
 

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Not entirely true, and im familiar with the toad's rules, but if I know chakax is in a unit, and he is trying to off things like flesh to stone and throne of vines, 3 guess were my scroll and all DD are going
 

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The next bit to Chakaxs "Hero Killing" prowess is "The Key to the Eternity Chamber" which, when Chakax is fighting in a challenge, he firstly gains a nice +5 Ward Save. Ontop of his +4 Armour save (pretty bad for a hero plus he has no armour of any type) he can avoid more than other heroes. Finally, the best bit, is that any hero he is in a challenge with, will ALWAYS strike last, even if he charged or the "Always Strikes First" rule, or has Initative 10 and so on. This means, with a bit of luck with rolls, Chakax can wound or even kill the hero, thus removing his bonuses to the squad/army OR his/her combat/magic prowess.
First off, that was a great character run down. However, this part is slightly off. The Lizardman FAQ clarifies that the Key to the Eternity Chamber imparts the Always Strikes Last rule to Chakax's opponent. Since, Chakax's weapon is a great weapon, they'll always strike simultaneously. Also, since ASF, and ASL cancel each other out, an opponent who has ASF will actually strike at his normal initiative (which is going to be first because of Chakax's weapon.

This unfortunately makes a pretty big difference in how the challenges will play out.
 

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Really? Well that is pretty poo. I was going off the codex which says "When fighting in a challenge, Chakax gains a 5+ ward save and any enemy model that wishes to attack him automatically strikes last, even if they charged or have an ability that would normally allow them to strike first."

I understood that to be that no matter what, Chakax will always strike first. Either way, if I played a game I would insist on my idea of the rules, Chakax isn't THAT great, he is OK, but compared to Grimgor Ironhide for example or a Chaos Lord/Bret he is terrible. He is too expensive for what he does, can't do any decent damage and his only use is as I stated before in holding up heroes and units while your damage dealers do their job (Slann basiclly lol)

EDIT: Checked around and it seems that everywhere I go, I keep seeing "the opponent will always strike first, even with a great weapon and regardless of any other rules". So I believe you might be wrong, I say BELIEVE, but if you can give me a link to a GW source confirming this I'd like it. His Mace is the same thing as Wood Elf Amber, you always strike last, no matter what, even with his great weapon, you will strike last if you attack him. So, no matter Initiative or other special rules (I'm reading this off GW website) the opponent strikes last.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/c...ryId=cat1300181&pIndex=1&aId=11300002&start=2

There we go.
 

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Really? Well that is pretty poo. I was going off the codex which says "When fighting in a challenge, Chakax gains a 5+ ward save and any enemy model that wishes to attack him automatically strikes last, even if they charged or have an ability that would normally allow them to strike first."

I understood that to be that no matter what, Chakax will always strike first. Either way, if I played a game I would insist on my idea of the rules, Chakax isn't THAT great, he is OK, but compared to Grimgor Ironhide for example or a Chaos Lord/Bret he is terrible. He is too expensive for what he does, can't do any decent damage and his only use is as I stated before in holding up heroes and units while your damage dealers do their job (Slann basiclly lol)

EDIT: Checked around and it seems that everywhere I go, I keep seeing "the opponent will always strike first, even with a great weapon and regardless of any other rules". So I believe you might be wrong, I say BELIEVE, but if you can give me a link to a GW source confirming this I'd like it. His Mace is the same thing as Wood Elf Amber, you always strike last, no matter what, even with his great weapon, you will strike last if you attack him. So, no matter Initiative or other special rules (I'm reading this off GW website) the opponent strikes last.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/c...ryId=cat1300181&pIndex=1&aId=11300002&start=2

There we go.
First of all, you're using a GW tactica as a basis for an answer to the rules, when they are notorious for not having the rules right, and second of all, this is all answered in the FAQ. Under Chakax it says his opponent has the Always Strikes Last rule. Therefore, he strike simultaneously, unless the enemy has Always Strikes First, in which case they'd go by initiative, just as in the BRB.
 

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There's the difference between RAI and RAW.

It was the same thing with the Asrai Amber Pendant, granting your opponent ASL even if they had the means to bypass that such as ASL, they always struck last.

But now it's FAQ'd to the universal ASL, and combined with not having ASF charges and ASL versus ASL not striking in Initiative order any more (which with the b-e-a-utiful Elven I7 gave me first strike against all but Vampires, Asur, and Slaanesh Daemons), Wood Elven Heroes, aside from ones with the Magic Armour from the BRB just shouldn't be allowed in close combat, which is wasting all but 3 Magic Weapons (of which only one is ever used in any case).

But yes, if a Character has a Great Weapon, they have ASL. Eternity will make your opponent ASL. ASL versus ASL strike simultaneously. No two ways about it, unforunately.

And I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that you still get to go first? The tactica simply states that an enemy gets ASL. Note that this bypasses Speed of Asuryan whereas Amber Pendant.



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Ah I see. Oh I just got it from various forums and such saying as no matter what Chakax does first, but if you say FAQ says so then I believe you. Well that means that Chakax will loose anyways, since he is pretty damn terrible anyways. Ah well, so basicly its a "leveler" item, which puts heroes on the same page as Chakax, apart from his stats. Thanks for that.
 

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I wouldn't be so sure. He's got a 3+(?) Armour Save, and opponents have only their basic weapons to use - which I think other than Bretonnians, it's only hand weapons.

Which when you consider that possibly the hardest non monster character in the game, Archaon has to hit on 3's, wound on 4's, and with a 5+ Armour Save and 5+ Ward Save, you've got a good chance of surviving.

At the same time, you hit back with your attacks, hitting on 5's, wounding on 3's, saving on 5's/3's. You'll be lucky to cause a wound. But that's two turns at least for blocking Archaon - and you won't even break from wounds caused by his supporting knights as they're unbreakable while Chakax is alive. Yes, it's an expensive anchor - at least 1000pts with the Slann and Temple Guard.



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