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Discussion Starter #62
You take this shit far too seriously. To be into this hobby you don't just suspend your disbelief, you shoot it in the head, chop up it's body and feed it to pigs. Lighten up.
Sorry...it's just that someone always brings that annoying answer to the table
and this time it was you. If one is in some certain mood it can seem a bit
flippant and belittling, though isn't meant to be. I think it's more appropriate
when someone is nitpicking physics of 40k or whatever. I'm all for 40k humour
and all, but that answer is a pet peeve of mine. :grin:

It just seems so ridiculous imagining a space marine drop his helmet and it sails
away on an ocean of blood, ok? Not that I've read the story myself though.
 

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For Macragge!

ok buit hereis my strike agaist it being implausible. in those situationswhere you could win by goingagaist the codex to get te job done (like many famous SMs do) you call it implausible! what uriel has done is nothing out of the ordinary considering the space marines were created for the single purpose to win against all odds! lets see has anyone when daemon hammer? or any book of the gaunts ghost series? the whole victory at the worst odds is the reason we read these books! so quit your whining! dont like him then dont buy the books!
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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I don't hate Ventris, but nor do I like him. He's too well-rounded and humane for my tastes, and I probably won't be getting the second Ultramarines Omnibus when BL releases it. AD-B's Helsreach shows a Space Marine character like it should be--slightly autistic, almost.

And as an aside, I believe that Abnett purposefully said that he wrote Brothers of the Snake with intentionally heroic, oral-legend styled prose that is hyperbole-infused and meant for viewing Space Marines with awe. Sooo...DE players, don't get your (spiked) panties in a bunch. You can feel free to interpret that particular short story as largely hyperbole and over-blown out of proportion as to just how many DE died.
 

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After reading first three Uriel books, i kinda liked him. Then came killing ground which softened him little too much and didnt have such a great story. After that Courage & Honour which was even worst than earlier novel.

Finally Chapter's due. Featuring some of my favourite men of Chaos. What an AWFUL book it was. I think i had to put book down for weeks and finally after struggling with this book for months got to finish it. Graham tried to put too much into one book, it was rushed and some things really laughable. Worst book from him so far, not Honsou and even his allies could have saved this.

Uriel the invincible has survived encounter with Necron Lords, been inside hive ship, charging ass-naked towards traitor marines firing at him point-blank range with bolters which actually hit him, survived headshot of bolter round and i bet more will come. He is too human too as others have said, he makes more harm to Ultramarines and is part of reason why people hate him.

Always thinked Ultramarines are really like total machines when it comes to codex execution, but then again we have to read about YET another marine who thinks almost like normal human. I think they should write them as total machines of destruction which makes reader actually hate them. They are badass yes, but they certainly not are good guys from normal citizens point of view. They would kill you if you get into way of their objective and collateral damage would be acceptable. But Uriel would propably just hug you.
 

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Unhinged Hobo
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I don't know what it is about space marine characters in general. I just find them really bland and boring. That's no mean feat when we're talking about a superhuman killing machine with an automatic granade launcher and more or less tank armour strapped to their body. I've had the same problem with the ultramarine omnibus and the grey knights omnibus. In the end i tried reading the HH novels cause i figured Dan Abnett wouldn't let me down, and was still unimpressed. The only ecception i've found is the space wolves omnibus.

I think the problem is lack of character flaws, each one of these characters is perfect with the exception to ragnar in the SW books. They are the steriotypical knight in shining armour, but where a modern day knight in most books or films might have a tarnished past that haunts him or a personal struggle that needs to be overcome alongside their main mission, none of the space marines in the books i just mentioned seem to have this lurking personal darkness. To me that makes the difference between wether character feels like


or

 

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I'm a fan of Ventris, but the first 3 novels were way better than the recent ones.

Some what OT, I know they call Honsou the "half breed" or something, but is he actually an imperial fist that turned traitor?
 

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I never hated Uriel Ventris. To me he always seemed like the John McClane of Space Marines. I hated to Ultramarins because Roboute Gulliman is a complete douchbag and an usurper. Everyone knows he was doing exactly what Lionel Johnson has been accused of for years.At the least he wanted to be the new warmaster and at best he thought he would be heir to the throne if the Emperor got waxed. The Ultramarines were the biggest chapter and the fence sat the seige to see who won,and then manuevered their sizeable forces all around the battle waried forces to make himself the new king of Terra.The best thing that ever happened to the Imperium was Fulgrim taking his ass out. What goes around comes around.He's an asshole and because the ultramarines are his legion they get his rep. buy association. Ventris is a good guy but they make him all humane so he's not your average Ultramarine.....someone you'd want to jettison in the warp.
 

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Preface: I have only finished Nightbringer and am moving on to Warriors of Ultramar. Some of the later examples many of you are discussing I haven't seen yet and perhaps my views could change later buuuuut....

Everyone has a right to their own likes and opinions. My own opinion is that Uriel Ventris is perhaps one of the greatest stand alone Space Marine characters yet written. His original appearance holds him as an underdog, innovator, idealist, and incredibly mentally tough warrior. In fact to me he embodies the over all ideal of the Ultramarines Chapter in many ways, while being a bit of a radical as well. This is because only in Ultramar is there any degree of a Utopian outlook on the grim dark future. Ultramar is a stable and prosperous realm which values its people to the last man. Uriel upholds this to his core. There's a jab at other Space Marine chapters in Nightbringer (specifically the Blood Angels) for forgetting that the Imperium is about Humanity and for their often brutal and uncaring practices of war which cause wanton and unnecessary collateral damage. Personally I think the Ultramarines are perhaps the greatest Chapter because of this fact. They do what they're supposed to, i.e. protect Humanity and destroy their enemies(let me stress that.... ENEMIES) in the name of the Emperor. Most other chapters usually fail in this task when you perceive it this way. Even Ario Barzano, an Inquisitor, holds human life in high regard, as he should. Life is the Emperor's currency but that does not mean it is to be squandered. Good is important.

You can see the popularity of the idea behind Ventris carried over in the somewhat recent Space Marine game as his ideals are copied onto Captain Titus. My opinion on the way Ventris appears OP in later books is that he is the hero. The hero in most stories usually has achievements far beyond his seeming abilities. Also, why blame a character, who was created quite well. Blame Graham McNeil for losing his perspective on the character perhaps, just as you might blame George Lucas for ruining Star Wars in many ways.

For those that believe in the uncaring brutal nature of Space Marines as the rule, that's your choice. I say that they are supposed to be better than that and the ones that don't behave as Ventris does, or at least as he starts out, are failures in the eyes of the Emperor. As for the hatred of the Ultras as a whole, I think there are a few reasons. One is that GW has always made them the poster child SM army and so many fans got tired. Another is that many preferred other armies to begin with(I started with Dark Angels and still claim that as my main army), and so naturally prefer them and might be disgruntled at lack of coverage of their favorite. I suppose there are other reasons too but they would be purely based on personal ideology or opinion and not specific instances where the Ultramarines army did wrong by anyone.

So, in summary, to me a loyalist Space Marine is supposed to be the greatest example of a White Knight. Even if he does not directly identify with those he protects he is honor bound to protect them and believes in and upholds this ideal. He fights for the weak and for those who cannot adequately fight for themselves. The converse is true of a Fallen/Chaos Space Marine who would fit a Black Knight archetype. If you feel that Uriel Ventris does not fit with the strong good alignment at his core then I would say re-read his story from the beginning and if it's just that you don't personally like this archetype, then read another story altogether. Uriel is a badass protector of Humanity, just as he should be.
 

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I'm gonna admit that I have no idea why people dislike Ventris, and yet, have no problem with Salamanders who are practically " human lovers. " They literally worship humans and value them as if they were their own battle brothers. So as for Ventries goes, he's still fine to me. A little bit too caring, yes, but I imagine that's all cause of Guiliman's influence. Afterall, Astartes do inherit qualities from their primarchs and way of thinking, especially when you're among the most successful primarchs in the great crusade, as well as your own mini Empire. Pride n shit.

I agree that Ventris should have in no way been able to defeat a shard of Nightbringer, or survive on a freaking demon planet, but hey, he's the main protagonist.
 

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The whole shtick of the Salamanders (besides the fire-ash-forge-fire fetish) is that they are the most humane chapter, after all--and while sure, an Ultramarine doesn't have to be a zealous, intolerant crusader like the Black Templars, I really think AD-B tapped into something with the "slightly autistic, out of sync with regular humans" view of space marines.

Additionally: Ventris was a chance to make the Ultramarines interesting, and was squandered. The magnum opus of the most brilliant tactical mind in the Imperium, a book tens of thousands of pages long, is (I imagine) going to teach you a whole lot more about warfare than it does tie you up to formulaic limitations. It's not going to be a book that forbids taking the initiative or attacking where your opponent doesn't expect/is weak.

The Ultramarines aren't supposed to be hidebound vanilla marines any more than Abaddon is supposed to be a laughable, mustache-twirling failure. Those are just memetic ideas bouncing around in the fanbase, not the They are exemplars of discipline and crisp tactical flexibility. The Second Founding was entirely based around the Ultramarine principles of the Chapter, and the majority of chapters are directly descended from their gene-seed. You may recoil to hear it*, but Matt Ward was right when he said most chapters look up to the illustrious, pedigreed, honored Ultramarines.

And McNiell's Ultramarine books... are decent space marine stories, but I can't help but feel they don't do credit to that legacy or sense of grandeur. Have only read the first omnibus, true, but still...

*and I agree that last SM codex gave them too much of the spotlight
 

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I have not read 100% of the replys but skimmed enough. Uriel is not a strict Codex adherant seems to have come up a few times. You must not forget, Uriel is former Deathwatch. This alone changes a Space Marine and radically changes their outlook. If you read Blood of Asaheim you can see how deep it can affect a space marine.

I have enjoyed the Ventris novels if some are pretty farfetched...even for space marines.
 
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