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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
We know that there were Iron Warrior loyalists, Barabas Dantioch and his small forces and Kyr Vhalen's 77th Grand Batallion both disagreed with Perturabo (a survivor of the 77th called Perturabo their "cursed Primarch) and remained loyal to the Emperor.

I wonder why more didn't since Extermination describes how Perturabo decimated the Iron Warriors when he took over and subsequently saw his Legion as expendable, so much so that the Imperial Army called them the corpse grinders.

Surely those Iron Warriors who didn't want their lives to be thrown away by Perturabo would have taken the opportunity to remain loyal when they discovered that he had sided with Horus?
 

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Just like with the World Eaters sacrificing their minds to form a bond with their father, I can see the same happening with the IW ignoring the callousness of their father out of love and genetically inbred loyalty.
 

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Yeah it seems like loyalty to the primarchs is a pretty major trait for every single geneseed, (Primarch>Homeworld>=Emperor)
For some loyalty to the primarch is even more important than in others, i.e. Word Bearers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Just like with the World Eaters sacrificing their minds to form a bond with their father, I can see the same happening with the IW ignoring the callousness of their father out of love and genetically inbred loyalty.
Yeah it seems like loyalty to the primarchs is a pretty major trait for every single geneseed, (Primarch>Homeworld>=Emperor)
For some loyalty to the primarch is even more important than in others, i.e. Word Bearers.
Fair point, although Galaxy In Flames and Scars show that this isn't necessarily the case with the Loyalists from the Emperor's Children, the World Eaters, Death Guard and Sons of Horus valuing their bonds to the Emperor more than to their Primarch and conversely the traitors in the White Scars siding with Horus.

The most obvious example is the Dark Angels who sided with Luther.

I hope we see more examples of Legionnaire on both sides who sided against their Primarch.
 

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The Iron Warriors were already callous and dismissive of casualties, remember that the nick name the corpse grinders came before, they were reunited with Perturabo and became the Iron Warriors.

Perturabo only exacerbated the tendencies already there. His decimation of the legion seems to have become retroactively accepted, even welcomed by the legion as a culling of the weak and just pennace for their perceived failings. They became ever harder and bitter.
 

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Jac "Baneblade" O'Bite
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Fair point, although Galaxy In Flames and Scars show that this isn't necessarily the case with the Loyalists from the Emperor's Children, the World Eaters, Death Guard and Sons of Horus valuing their bonds to the Emperor more than to their Primarch and conversely the traitors in the White Scars siding with Horus.
I think in the case of the former this also has to do with a lot of the "loyalists" in "traitor" legions being Terrans rather than natives to their respective Primarchs's Home Worlds.
 

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With the blatant exception being the White Scars, where the terrans was the traitors and had been exposed to a lot of Horusian hero-worship. Torghun was quite bitter over not becoming a Son of Horus.
 

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My one complaint was that that seemed to be a massive plothole to simply say "see, even Terran's weren't immune to it", a fairly contrived affair.

The "cursed primarch" bit isn't exactly unique, or indicative of the 77th's allegiance IMHO. The Night Lords had similar disdain for Curze, and in some respects, the World Eaters as well, although the latter took steps to attempt to shorten the gulf, while in the former, it was more of Curze's disdain for his own legion being little more than murderers and outright villains.

In addition to that, the 77th were out of touch with Imperial Space, and knew nothing of Perturabo's allegiance's; the only reason they are "loyallist" is because they were attacked by the AL and had the admech to back them up. They are not loyallist in the sense of the Istvaan loyalists who are well aware of their Primarch's beliefs and dispositions and new loyalties and actively chose to stand against them.

From the 77th's POV, they were simply attacked by the AL. It's like a drinking buddy suddenly turning round and punching you. He might be your friends friend, but he's hit you, you hit back, not because you're defending your friend, but because you've been attacked.



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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
The Iron Warriors were already callous and dismissive of casualties, remember that the nick name the corpse grinders came before, they were reunited with Perturabo and became the Iron Warriors.

Perturabo only exacerbated the tendencies already there. His decimation of the legion seems to have become retroactively accepted, even welcomed by the legion as a culling of the weak and just pennace for their perceived failings. They became ever harder and bitter.
Good point, I'd forgotten that the nickname preceded Perturabo. However this doesn't explain their attitude of "the Emperor sends us to fight the hardest battles and the other Legions get the glory" attitude. It's quite clear that Perturabo doesn't care that his Legion gets the hardest battles as he see's his Legion as expendable.

I think in the case of the former this also has to do with a lot of the "loyalists" in "traitor" legions being Terrans rather than natives to their respective Primarchs's Home Worlds.
Good point, I wonder if since most if not all the decimated forces were Terrans, that made the Iron Warriors have a higher proportion of Olympians earlier in their existence than most of the other Legions.

With the blatant exception being the White Scars, where the terrans was the traitors and had been exposed to a lot of Horusian hero-worship. Torghun was quite bitter over not becoming a Son of Horus.
Yeah, this is a bit cheesy :)

My one complaint was that that seemed to be a massive plothole to simply say "see, even Terran's weren't immune to it", a fairly contrived affair.

The "cursed primarch" bit isn't exactly unique, or indicative of the 77th's allegiance IMHO. The Night Lords had similar disdain for Curze, and in some respects, the World Eaters as well, although the latter took steps to attempt to shorten the gulf, while in the former, it was more of Curze's disdain for his own legion being little more than murderers and outright villains.

In addition to that, the 77th were out of touch with Imperial Space, and knew nothing of Perturabo's allegiance's; the only reason they are "loyallist" is because they were attacked by the AL and had the admech to back them up. They are not loyallist in the sense of the Istvaan loyalists who are well aware of their Primarch's beliefs and dispositions and new loyalties and actively chose to stand against them.

From the 77th's POV, they were simply attacked by the AL. It's like a drinking buddy suddenly turning round and punching you. He might be your friends friend, but he's hit you, you hit back, not because you're defending your friend, but because you've been attacked.
Also a good point, I'm surprised the Alpha Legion didn't try some sneakiness to persuade the 77th Grand Battalion that they were still loyal and Paramar had rebelled. Surely this would have been more in character for such a flexible and adaptive Legion as the Alpha Legion. I see this as a massive plot hole in this story.
 

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Bane of Empires
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The way I read Extermination, it seems that the Iron Warriors devolved into bitterness and, to an extent, madness just as much as Perturabo did in the years building up to the Horus Heresy. Perturabo remade the Legion in his own image after he took command,

Resentment, pride and paranoia festered in the hearts of the Iron Warriors. As Extermination says:

"By his grim methods and savage example Perturabo had awoke in his warriors a reflection of his own dark soul, and within them his own suspicion, malevolent distrust and callous indifference to life grew alongside the ruthless determination, cold intellect and strength he wished to unlock there. It is then not perhaps surprising, given the Legion's predilection for open battle... and its willingness at every level from its Primarch downwards to accept attrition as the price of victory, that the Iron Warriors are estimated in many sources to have suffered the highest overall rates of casualties taken over time of any of the Legions... However, despite their genetically enhanced resilience to mental trauma and psycho-indoctrination, it is believed that such a continuous exposure to loss and destruction worked a slow and bitter corrosion of the Legion's psyche... In their fellow Legions they saw weaknesses bred by self-deceit, lack of discipline, false mysticism and vanity, and they also saw insults and slights by them."

These factors were only exasperated when Horus (after being appointed Warmaster) dictated the Legion spread its strength further and thinner in thankless sieges and garrison postings in the far-flung and isolated corners of the Imperium. The Burning of Olympia proved the final descent into madness.

The Iron Warriors were a reflection of their deranged Primarch. They fell into Horus's embrace for the same reasons Perturabo did.
 

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Clearly paints the Iron Warriors a lot grimmer and darker than their portrayal in Angel Exterminatus.

I recall reading something about that Peturabo used to be one of the most zealous supporters of the Emperor, and to see him turned into a grim and bitter 'demented' davinci' like this portrayal from Extermination refered above would have made for an interesting tale.
 

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Clearly paints the Iron Warriors a lot grimmer and darker than their portrayal in Angel Exterminatus.

I recall reading something about that Peturabo used to be one of the most zealous supporters of the Emperor, and to see him turned into a grim and bitter 'demented' davinci' like this portrayal from Extermination refered above would have made for an interesting tale.
I didn't think much of Perturabo's portrayal in Angel Exterminatus. It generally went against the established lore we had, and his prior portrayal in Crimson Fist. It also didn't sit well with his reasoning for turning on the Emperor. His bitterness, madness and the psychological consequences of the Purging of Olympia weren't really touched upon in AE, unfortunately.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
The way I read Extermination, it seems that the Iron Warriors devolved into bitterness and, to an extent, madness just as much as Perturabo did in the years building up to the Horus Heresy. Perturabo remade the Legion in his own image after he took command,

Resentment, pride and paranoia festered in the hearts of the Iron Warriors. As Extermination says:

"By his grim methods and savage example Perturabo had awoke in his warriors a reflection of his own dark soul, and within them his own suspicion, malevolent distrust and callous indifference to life grew alongside the ruthless determination, cold intellect and strength he wished to unlock there. It is then not perhaps surprising, given the Legion's predilection for open battle... and its willingness at every level from its Primarch downwards to accept attrition as the price of victory, that the Iron Warriors are estimated in many sources to have suffered the highest overall rates of casualties taken over time of any of the Legions... However, despite their genetically enhanced resilience to mental trauma and psycho-indoctrination, it is believed that such a continuous exposure to loss and destruction worked a slow and bitter corrosion of the Legion's psyche... In their fellow Legions they saw weaknesses bred by self-deceit, lack of discipline, false mysticism and vanity, and they also saw insults and slights by them."

These factors were only exasperated when Horus (after being appointed Warmaster) dictated the Legion spread its strength further and thinner in thankless sieges and garrison postings in the far-flung and isolated corners of the Imperium. The Burning of Olympia proved the final descent into madness.

The Iron Warriors were a reflection of their deranged Primarch. They fell into Horus's embrace for the same reasons Perturabo did.
Good point, although those Iron Warrior who were then garrisoning worlds could have had chance to recover somewhat from the shell shock and PTSD they were obviously starting to suffer from. This could explain Dantioch and his forces. I hope to see other Iron Warrior loyalists in a similar vein as I think there may have been some. After all sitting in a garrison for years not fighting anyone may have been enough time for their superhuman psyche to recover.

The fact of the effects of warfare on the Space Marines is an interesting one and is covered better with some of the later founding Chapters such as the Doom Angels and the Mortifactors who are obsessed with death and this can be explained as their way of dealing with the darkness of their situations.

One nitpick, I think you meant exacerbated not exasperated :)

Clearly paints the Iron Warriors a lot grimmer and darker than their portrayal in Angel Exterminatus.

I recall reading something about that Peturabo used to be one of the most zealous supporters of the Emperor, and to see him turned into a grim and bitter 'demented' davinci' like this portrayal from Extermination refered above would have made for an interesting tale.
I didn't think much of Perturabo's portrayal in Angel Exterminatus. It generally went against the established lore we had, and his prior portrayal in Crimson Fist. It also didn't sit well with his reasoning for turning on the Emperor. His bitterness, madness and the psychological consequences of the Purging of Olympia weren't really touched upon in AE, unfortunately.
I loved the portrayal of Perturabo in Angel Exterminatus but I agree it doesn't fit well with the other fluff. Maybe it can be explained by him being retconned as having multiple personalities (which is one outcome of PTSD). The combat trauman caused his psyche to split into the "demented davinci" (this is an epic nickname) personality outside of combat and the other deranged part of his psyche came to the fore in combat, especially with the Imperial Fists who he detested.

After all he didn't appear to have a problem with the Iron Hands and Salamanders (possibly due to a shared love of technology. Conversely there has been some fluff written about his having a problem with the Raven Guard.
 

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and its willingness at every level from its Primarch downwards to accept attrition as the price of victory, that the Iron Warriors are estimated in many sources to have suffered the highest overall rates of casualties taken over time of any of the Legions... However, despite their genetically enhanced resilience to mental trauma and psycho-indoctrination, it is believed that such a continuous exposure to loss and destruction worked a slow and bitter corrosion of the Legion's psyche... In their fellow Legions they saw weaknesses bred by self-deceit, lack of discipline, false mysticism and vanity, and they also saw insults and slights by them."
Damn. More casualties than the World Eaters?
 

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Damn. More casualties than the World Eaters?
I don't think more causalities. As CotE said, they Iron Warriors had a higher casualty rate, not more casualties.

Remember, the World Eaters was a lot larger than the Iron Warriors. So likely the Iron Warriors loss more men as a percentage than the World Eaters who probably lost more men...but also recruited many more warriors into its ranks.
 

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The wording supports my post and CoTe agrees as well.

I don't see how the WE had higher numbers than the IW given their unnecessarily brutal induction methods that resulted in more than usual aspirant deaths.

Also their primarch was a moron thanks to the surgery and did not have the foresight to increase numbers like the other legions to make up for the losses. Not IIRC.
 

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I don't see how the WE had higher numbers than the IW given their unnecessarily brutal induction methods that resulted in more than usual aspirant deaths.
Hrm, seems I made a mistake. The World Eaters are notably above average in size (150,000 men), but the Iron Warriors are even larger, ranging somewhere between 150,000-180,000.

If this is indicitive of their relative size throughout the majority of the Great Crusade, then if the Iron Warriors did indeed have the highest casualty rate, then likely they also lost the most men.

Only hitch I could see is that Extermination also suggests that the Iron Warriors rapidly increased their numbers as the Heresy approached. So perhaps the numbers are less proportional than we would hope.

Lastly, we are not definitely told the Iron Warriors had the highest casualty rate, only simply that many other sources say so.

So, in conclusion, I'll say that most probably it's very likely that the Iron Warriors possibly had the greatest amount of casualties both in rate and total number.
 

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Also their primarch was a moron thanks to the surgery and did not have the foresight to increase numbers like the other legions to make up for the losses. Not IIRC.
He didn't care about his Legion. All he wanted was Freedom for himself. He took the Khan's ethics to the extreme. The legion was, for the most part, run by his High Command, who then followed him around the galaxy as to where his whims went.



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Clearly paints the Iron Warriors a lot grimmer and darker than their portrayal in Angel Exterminatus.

I recall reading something about that Peturabo used to be one of the most zealous supporters of the Emperor, and to see him turned into a grim and bitter 'demented' davinci' like this portrayal from Extermination refered above would have made for an interesting tale.
I believe that was in the Index Astartes. It stated he was "fanatically" loyal to the Emperor.

I didn't think much of Perturabo's portrayal in Angel Exterminatus. It generally went against the established lore we had, and his prior portrayal in Crimson Fist. It also didn't sit well with his reasoning for turning on the Emperor. His bitterness, madness and the psychological consequences of the Purging of Olympia weren't really touched upon in AE, unfortunately.
The one thing that I did like was the incorporation of Nikea and Perturabo's part. Just like his legion, Perturabo was used as a tool for the Emperor. I would have liked to seen this portrayal of him before Olympia. It didn't work well in Angel Exterminatus. However, we do see a separation between Perturabo and the Emperor and the point where it breaks this loyalty that Perturabo previously had. In this case, Perturabo saw himself as a builder, and the Emperor and even his brothers perverted his skills.

As far as why the legion stayed loyal. It seemed that they all shared this fanatical loyalty until it was to late to turn back and they essential destroyed their humanity. Horus actually set it up perfectly to have Perturabo sack his own planet for the sake of loyalty to the Emperor. If Perturabo was a politician who gained from using the legion then I think the question is fair. However, Perturabo fought those battles with his men and suffered the same consequences as his men.
 
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