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But don't all armies have a flyer or FMC now? As weren't all the marines dexes given the stormraven/talon? Apart from SoB of course but they aren't quite marines. Granted some of those are crap like the DA ones, I personally don't see a problem with them as its not like the sole purpose of an aegis line is for AA, granted that might be the reason you bought it, but it certainly provides a good fortified position behind which you can stick a relatively weak troops an go to ground with another unit on the gun. The only problems I can see with flyers is flyer spam ( which you only really get at tournies and is rare in friendlies unless it is at a FLGS and the player is a douche) and the Helldrake which everyone complains about anyway. Also Can someone also clarify tau AA for me, as it seems pretty good when they can give it to suits and marker lights effect snap shots etc.
Yup apart of SoB and Space Wolves every other army has Flyers / FMCs. And yes the problem isn't flyers, it flyer spam. If you can't deal with 1 or 2 Flyers then I am sorry you are just bad at the game. If you think they ruin the game, then go play 5th ed and stay away from the rest of us who don't mind.

As for Tau AA, it is ridiculous, Boardsides with the Skyfire System (forget it's name atm) and Missiles will swat flyers out of the air all day like it is nothing. Even without the system, marker lights improving sap shots still make it much easier for Tau do deal with Flyers then any other army.
 

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I feel like they had to know some flyers would be so prevalent. I don't know why they just didn't adjust the FOC to have a special flier slot. I mean fast attack makes sense for flyers, but when it contains jump troops or bike troops, it becomes sort of a "which of these is not like the other".

Two things I see about flyers:

1) Games with fliers just seem to be less fun for people overall. They pretty much seem like WAAC units.

2) I've seen plenty of games go in favor of the non-flyer fielding player due to the fact the flyer fielding player has no scoring units left on the board (at least in non purge games).
 

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I love that flyers are in the game, but I don't think that GW had any real plan on how to deal with them in a balanced way

The issue remains that some armies just cant deal with them. Tyranids spring to mind. A flyrant is the only real option. Massed fire from a dakka fex or hive guard if desperate can maybe glance the bad ones away but they won't stop a pair or more of Drakes. The real problem is the 2k barrier where the skies can be alive.

The other key problem is just quality and role of flyers. Some armies take flyers just to hunt other flyers (Crimson hunter, Possibly the vendetta) Some are just plain awful (Hemlock, Tau skyboats, Dark Angels) and yet other can be dominant (Heldrake, Cron air fleet).

You have to look to FW for decent flyers, including the iconic and fluffy ones. Look how big the FW Eldar, Imperial navy and Tau fleets are. I think thats what people wanted not the random cruddy oh what random plastic can we put together that happened for a couple of releases

And as for players not taking flyers having more troops, can't see this against a foe with total air supremacy. I think most armies are written now with a flyer tax of at least 2 planes.
 

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Can someone also clarify tau AA for me, as it seems pretty good when they can give it to suits and marker lights effect snap shots etc.
They get the Puretide Engram Chip on their Commanders, which gives his unit a special rule for the turn or shooting phase in lieu of his own shooting, one of which is Skyfire, I believe, and he has another piece of wargear that grants Interceptor. Markerlights do, of course, help with their AA, but the fact that Broadsides can take Str8 AP1 Skyfire shots makes them exceptional AA in the current game.

Yup apart of SoB and Space Wolves every other army has Flyers / FMCs. And yes the problem isn't flyers, it flyer spam. If you can't deal with 1 or 2 Flyers then I am sorry you are just bad at the game. If you think they ruin the game, then go play 5th ed and stay away from the rest of us who don't mind.
Actually, 2 Heldrakes running round the field is kind of a huge deal. They require an inordinate amount of AA to dislodge, being essentially immune to anything with strength lower than 8 and AP 3 or higher, and being immune to most of the flyer-based penalties. 360 degree LOS with a Torrent gun means they never, ever have to leave the board, and AV12 negates the most common AA fire (which is of course the Autocannon template in it's various forms across the codices), it's got a permanent Jink+, and ignores 4/6 of the damage chart. Most flyers are perfectly fine - the Dakkajet, the Scythes, the Stormraven (it's one of the stronger ones, but that's balanced by it's points cost and it's requirement to actually abide by the Flyer rules like movement restrictions).

Midnight
 

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They get the Puretide Engram Chip on their Commanders, which gives his unit a special rule for the turn or shooting phase in lieu of his own shooting, one of which is Skyfire, I believe, and he has another piece of wargear that grants Interceptor. Markerlights do, of course, help with their AA, but the fact that Broadsides can take Str8 AP1 Skyfire shots makes them exceptional AA in the current game.



Actually, 2 Heldrakes running round the field is kind of a huge deal. They require an inordinate amount of AA to dislodge, being essentially immune to anything with strength lower than 8 and AP 3 or higher, and being immune to most of the flyer-based penalties. 360 degree LOS with a Torrent gun means they never, ever have to leave the board, and AV12 negates the most common AA fire (which is of course the Autocannon template in it's various forms across the codices), it's got a permanent Jink+, and ignores 4/6 of the damage chart. Most flyers are perfectly fine - the Dakkajet, the Scythes, the Stormraven (it's one of the stronger ones, but that's balanced by it's points cost and it's requirement to actually abide by the Flyer rules like movement restrictions).

Midnight
But they still have to move their minimum inches correct? A good play could probably make a plan that exploits that.
 

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Chaos tactics with Heldrakes are point it at anything with out a 2+ save, WIN

Seriously with the flamer there is nothing they really fear moving towards. Even an AA unit will struggle to get past all its saves.

Theres no tactical subtly with Heldrakes, all they do is kill shizzilel. No fancy manoeuvres needed, no drifting lazily to the left, 360 template torrent means theres no escaping this evil predacon
 

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Actually, 2 Heldrakes running round the field is kind of a huge deal
You are right, Heldrakes are a huge threat. The one thing about them is if they have the flamer, they are poor at killing other flyers themselves, sure they have vector strike, but that's about the same as a Quadgun, and no one seems to think that fixes flyer problem, so why should vector strike?

The fact is with every Codex that comes out, Flyers lose more and more of their "OP" edge, Soon they will be just another unit.
 

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But they still have to move their minimum inches correct? A good play could probably make a plan that exploits that.
Such as? 'Oh no, my enemy has to be maneuverable!'

You can't get them away from what you want them to kill as they have range 20" on the Baleflamer, but only have to move 18". They are pretty much the only flyer that can seriously dent something in two consecutive turns.

You are right, Heldrakes are a huge threat. The one thing about them is if they have the flamer, they are poor at killing other flyers themselves,
And they also don't give a shit. Flyers can't score, but Troops can, and unless you're playing a serious horde list or Deathwing, Heldrakes are going to clean your Troops off the board in two turns, no questions asked.

Midnight
 

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Such as? 'Oh no, my enemy has to be maneuverable!'

You can't get them away from what you want them to kill as they have range 20" on the Baleflamer, but only have to move 18". They are pretty much the only flyer that can seriously dent something in two consecutive turns.



And they also don't give a shit. Flyers can't score, but Troops can, and unless you're playing a serious horde list or Deathwing, Heldrakes are going to clean your Troops off the board in two turns, no questions asked.

Midnight
According to the rule book a zooming flyer can only pivot 90*
When they enter combat they can only face directions that won't take them off the board.

Correct me if I am wrong but they can only come in at turn 2 correct?

If I'm willing to sacrifice part of my army to create a juicy target I can narrow down the possible areas a flyer would enter.

Get what I am saying? Fight the enemy where they are not.
 

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I have not yet played 5th or 6th edition. Im still building my Grey Knight army.
So this is just my opinion....and opinions are like assholes, and they all stink.

I think fliers are a great concept. It does add another dimension to the battle field.
It gives the commander an extra element and tool at their disposal.

That said..... My wallet is angry. My wife will be angry.
Sure its an awesome concept and brings new challenges...but....I just bought 40 Grey Knights, 15 GK Termies, 2 NDK, and 2 DNs and Inq. Coteaz. I have yet to purchase Rhinos, or Landraiders etc, let alone the paints!

For the love of the Emperor....my pocket book needs some protection lol
 

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Do people typically use the page 72 ruling of firing arcs of hull mounted weapons where it is 22.5 degrees down from the weapon mount? I know some overlook it, but I don't see any way to bypass it looking at the rules, assuming it is hull mounted.

That is another weakness of flyers.
 

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That would give the Hemlock fighter an engagement envelope of only 6" on it's heavy D weapons and make Rapid Fire a pretty rare occurrence for the Storm Raven Hurricane Bolter.
 

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The fact is with every Codex that comes out, Flyers lose more and more of their "OP" edge, Soon they will be just another unit.
You say that, but the only "Good" anti-air unit to be released in a 6th Ed codex is Broadsides with an attached commander. Crimson Hunters are playable, but not "good" as they rely on too many things to succeed (coming on second, enemy has no Skyfire of any kind available, Guide near-mandatory to cause reliable damage).

So out of Chaos, Dark Angels, Tau and Eldar, we have one playable unit and one good unit in the "Anti-Air" category. That hardly solves the problem of Scythes, Vendettas and Heldrakes.
 

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So out of Chaos, Dark Angels, Tau and Eldar, we have one playable unit and one good unit in the "Anti-Air" category. That hardly solves the problem of Scythes, Vendettas and Heldrakes.
Yeah the DA flyers aren't the worst things in the world on paper, they look worse mainly because how good other flyers are.
 

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So out of Chaos, Dark Angels, Tau and Eldar, we have one playable unit and one good unit in the "Anti-Air" category. That hardly solves the problem of Scythes, Vendettas and Heldrakes.
Chaos has plenty of options for Anti-air to my knowledge. Off the top of my head, one can bring:

- Aegis defense line
- Daemon prince with Wings
- Defiler
- Havocs
- Heldrake (Yeah ok, but it IS possible)

That seems like a fair amount of choices for one army at least.
 

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Do people typically use the page 72 ruling of firing arcs of hull mounted weapons where it is 22.5 degrees down from the weapon mount? I know some overlook it, but I don't see any way to bypass it looking at the rules, assuming it is hull mounted.

That is another weakness of flyers.
That is interesting indeed
 

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You are right, Heldrakes are a huge threat. The one thing about them is if they have the flamer, they are poor at killing other flyers themselves, sure they have vector strike, but that's about the same as a Quadgun, and no one seems to think that fixes flyer problem, so why should vector strike?
Strength 7 is perfectly fine against most flyers, it's just when you get AV12 that it becomes an issue but your right vector strike won't do much to dent another flyer. The only consistent way I find to deal with a drake is get at its rear, which for most armies are pretty hard but cron barges can get there quite easily and has taken it down in most the games I have played against one by turn 3, (after a chunk of my army dies I should add).

It can be very hard to out manoeuvre a drake, it really doesn't matter that it has to move 18" as it has a total range of 18" anyway with a 360 fire arc.

Since the drake was released the only flyer which seems to have any worth is the is hemlock and even then if it fails to do anything the turn it comes in it dies.
 

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Chaos has plenty of options for Anti-air to my knowledge. Off the top of my head, one can bring:

- Aegis defense line
So you're saying it's perfectly fine that the ADL is pretty much mandatory to include in your army unless you're playing Tau/Tyranids? Even so, the quad gun isn't hard to kill especially when you can only bring 1, unlike flyers.

- Daemon prince with Wings
Daemon Princes are expensive (much more so than any flyer), frail and only strenght 6. They are hardly capable at AA duty unless you are never playing against the AV 12 flyers. Even so, they are still not cost-efficient.

- Defiler
Uhmm...what? How is the defiler in any way an AA platform? If you are talking about the Soul Grinder, yes it has a VERY MODEST anti air capability, but it's not good at it.

Havocs are also not very good AA support. They are, like the daemon prince, expensive (if given flakk missiles), frail and still considerably worse than a Quad gun. Again, these are only really a threat to AV 11 or less flyers and not cheap enough to make them worthwhile at even that.

- Heldrake (Yeah ok, but it IS possible)
Actually, the Hellturkey is the only worthwhile AA option chaos has been given. Ironic, since that is hardly what you include it for. But it has almost everything required: It's tough, automatically hits flyers, ignores their cover saves and also isn't forced to spent all game chasing flyers so even though it isn't cheap it still has a huge impact on the board while providing some decent AA defense.

So in actuality, the only really useful Aa chaos has at it's disposal is heldrakes....often in multiples.
Flyers are a decent addition to 40k, but their introduction to the system is completely devoid of any sense of balance.
 

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For me, 40K is not a mass battle game, it is a skirmish game. Certainly for old boys like me, this is how it was back in the day.
Flyers don't fit into that and disrupt the balance and this has seriously put me off the system to the point I have barely touched my models since 6th edition.
Lets face it, if 50 guys are shooting at each other, with a bit of armour in support, and then your air force turns up and the others don't - you are going to win. Flyers will never fit the scale for 40k unless your playing at least 5k games a side.
However they sell well....so they are here to stay, and those that dont want to adapt to it, will have to go play elsewhere - thankfully plenty of choice nowadays!
 

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For me, 40K is not a mass battle game, it is a skirmish game.
While I understand that sentiment, 40k has not been a skirmish game since 2ed. When they changed over to 3ed and standardized movement and removed most of the individual model level customization the whole nature of the game changed. Battles became larger overnight.

If flyers were what put you off the game in the changeover from 5ed to 6ed then the problem is probably not the scale of the game.
 
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