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One c'tan, yes. A fluke that has not been repeated since and had a devastating consequence.
So they can actually be killed.

Not to mention they can be rendered impotent with a tesseract labrynth. The C'tan are defeatable; they're killable, shardable, controlable. The Ruinous Powers are not.
 

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Discussion Starter #22
So they can actually be killed.
Debatable, since even the necrons do not understand how exactly it happened, it wasn't something they planned for. And even if anyone else could duplicate the kind of technology responsible for this occurrence, there is no guarantee it would ever happen again. So this really isn't a factor I would bank on.

Not to mention they can be rendered impotent with a tesseract labrynth. The C'tan are defeatable; they're killable, shardable, controlable. The Ruinous Powers are not.
When you mention it this way, I almost forget about the trillions of necrons that were lost to achieve it, as well as the reality warping power they possess and the knowledge they imparted on the necrons, knowledge and tech which brought even the Old Ones to desparation and defeat.

I guess none of that matters, nor the fear that the necrons still hold strongly for them and the fact that they only use these beings when they have no other options.


I guess what my point is here, is that only ONE race has ever succeeded in outright defeating and controlling the c'tan. It is arguable whether they have the means to repeat this feat should such action ever be required again. Due to this, I consider them to be one of the highest long term threats in 40k. If enough of them were to break free of necron control (which we can assume is possible as it is stated in the lore) they could do all kinds of large scale damage.
 

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Debatable, since even the necrons do not understand how exactly it happened, it wasn't something they planned for. And even if anyone else could duplicate the kind of technology responsible for this occurrence, there is no guarantee it would ever happen again. So this really isn't a factor I would bank on.
And yet is is possible. The warp is an impossible realm where anything is possible. I'd wager a C'tan could be defeated or at least sufficiently weakened by some kind of warp based weapon.

Breaching a shard's necrodermis will 'scatter it to the galactic winds'. pg.40 of the Necron Codex. This may not mean they're destroyed though i believe it means they are but it certainly defeats them.



When you mention it this way, I almost forget about the trillions of necrons that were lost to achieve it, as well as the reality warping power they possess and the knowledge they imparted on the necrons, knowledge and tech which brought even the Old Ones to desparation and defeat.

I guess none of that matters, nor the fear that the necrons still hold strongly for them and the fact that they only use these beings when they have no other options.
You mean millions of necrons. Page 7.

If the necrons 'only' lost millions to shatter and imprison the C'tan i'd wager the servants of chaos who number in the billions or trillions, not to mention the infinite number of daemons could eventually do it, especially with actual, inviolable gods on their side.


I guess what my point is here, is that only ONE race has ever succeeded in outright defeating and controlling the c'tan. It is arguable whether they have the means to repeat this feat should such action ever be required again. Due to this, I consider them to be one of the highest long term threats in 40k. If enough of them were to break free of necron control (which we can assume is possible as it is stated in the lore) they could do all kinds of large scale damage.
True, the C'tan free would cause horrific damage. Would they be able to meaningfully defeat the Ruinous Powers though? I don't believe there's any mention of the Great Work in the new codex. The 4 are actual gods, immortal and very possibly omnipotent and omniscient or near enough not to matter. By virtue of being undefeatable surely they win by default?
 

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Discussion Starter #24
And yet is is possible. The warp is an impossible realm where anything is possible. I'd wager a C'tan could be defeated or at least sufficiently weakened by some kind of warp based weapon.
The Talismans of Vaul couldn't defeat one c'tan when there were twelve aligned against it. Tech like that simply can't be built by anyone short of the necrons anymore, and even that is not confirmed.

Breaching a shard's necrodermis will 'scatter it to the galactic winds'. pg.40 of the Necron Codex. This may not mean they're destroyed though i believe it means they are but it certainly defeats them.
Granted, though I doubt this "kills" them I will concede that it for the most part removes them from the equation.

You mean millions of necrons. Page 7.
My mistake, I was thinking of the later entry. :laugh:

If the necrons 'only' lost millions to shatter and imprison the C'tan i'd wager the servants of chaos who number in the billions or trillions, not to mention the infinite number of daemons could eventually do it, especially with actual, inviolable gods on their side.
Short of the Chaos Gods literally stepping into the Materium to strike the killing blow to each and every c'tan shard to permanently destroy them, I simply cannot see this happening. The Chaos Marines and Daemons would have to work to breach every last necrodermis body to take the c'tan shards out of the fight.

True, the C'tan free would cause horrific damage. Would they be able to meaningfully defeat the Ruinous Powers though? I don't believe there's any mention of the Great Work in the new codex. The 4 are actual gods, immortal and very possibly omnipotent and omniscient or near enough not to matter. By virtue of being undefeatable surely they win by default?
The Chaos Gods don't care enough though to make that kind of direct assault. Which means it's up to their servants and mortal followers, warriors and slaves who CAN be defeated. The Chaos Gods' power is only as strong as the flow of emotion allows.


The argument here seems to be that the gods themselves need to be killed for them to not count as contenders. This isn't the case. As you said, the c'tan can be breached and scattered, this doesn't necessarily mean they're dead but it does place them in a position where they cannot affect the scales to anywhere near the same degree as if they were still in necrodermis shell. Do you see?

By lasting victory, I mean holding the lion's share of the galaxy at large. For Chaos, this would mean their servants have the biggest holdings, perpetuating war death and whatever else the gods want on a galactic scale. There is still a chance that the necrons could amass enough forces to drive the Chaos Legions to breaking point, or the tyranids could overrun all life and starve the gods and therefore their servants of enough power to continue the fight.

You're arguing the gods cannot be killed makes them automatic winners, but keep in mind that they held very little sway in the time before the War in Heaven and for a long time after. Such a time could easily arise again under the right circumstances.
 

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Here is my view on how GW would end it. Rhana Dandra will happen destroying the eldar and creating Ynnead who will defeat slaanesh. The eldar may or may not be reborn in the webway. This will deal a powerful blow to the forces of chaos who will still breach the cadian gate and reach Terra. Here I believe there are several options. The emperor could wake up and help in the fight against chaos. The remaining primarchs will show up on terra as well and do battle! The spezmehreens will defeat the forces of chaos and the emperor may or may not be defeated during the fight (if he even wakes up) lets face it GW would make the marines win and if we are not counting GW's opinion I believe realistically they would win even though they are not even in my top 5 for favorite armies I just believe they would pull it off (end of random marine rant). The orks being to numerous to kill would have their numbers controlled (Thrakka would probably be defeated by Yarrick). The tyranid fleets would be crippled and some random splinters would still exist to harass space ships and what not. I believe the tau wouldn't be whipped out. I think it would be cool if farsight revealed that the ethreals were using some kind of pheromone to control the tau and then led the tau in a revolution against them and maybe join the emperor (not even sure how I feel about that, but these are just my thoughts). The necron situation I believe to be the trickiest. Are they just going to be killed off eventually? Will the silent king fight an epic battle with the Imperium and then lose and realize his time in this galaxy is over and take the remaining necrons and leave the galaxy? Will they hit the snooze button and go back to sleep? I can't really answer the necron situation myself. Oh and the other chaos gods will drastically lose power because man will again have a stronger than ever faith in the Emperor. Anyway those are my thoughts on tying up all the loose ends.
 

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Still not sure about the Necron threat that everyone talks about. I'm not big on the lore, but from what I've read the Necron are changing in nature at the moment.

They used to be the "Fuck it all, let's just cleanse this universe and reclaim it." but lately they're turning more and more into "We want to be made flesh again, how do we do that? We need it!".

If they continue down this path, I have the feeling that they will eventually be so desperate to become flesh that they will be their own demise. I believe that either they will achieve it and be devoured by the Tyranids, or they will spend every last Necron Warrior trying to and cause their own demise in the process because of desperation or carelessness.

Heck who knows - Maybe I'm reading too much into this. But with the above in mind, I still count both Chaos Daemons and Tyranids to be the two biggest forces to be reckoned with. I think it will be down to those two battling it out.
 

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The Imperium I think. or if the Chaos Legions united under their Primarchs again. If it happened that all of the Primarchs defeated or not from the Chaos legions are reborn after several thousand years years (or however many years they vanish for, I don't have the energy to make that accurate) Most Space Marine chapters believe in a resurrection or continued existene of their Primarch. But the Chaos primarchs have only a few truly dead members. The rest are immortal Daemon Princes. If Magnus, Lorgar, Mortarion, Angron and Alpharius/Omegon. Joined with Pertuarbo and Fulgrim would devastate the Imperium. (Of course this is only one situation that is unlikely to happen at the same time)
 

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Personally, I would write the Necrons off. Their utter reliance on the webway is too much of a handicap.
 

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Discussion Starter #29
Personally, I would write the Necrons off. Their utter reliance on the webway is too much of a handicap.
Possibly, but given the other technologies at their disposal (mainly the Null Field Matrices) I feel that they had enough of an equalising factor to at least be a contender.
 

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The bitterness in this one is strong. It is weekend soon young padiwan, cleanse yourself of such hateful words :D
Yeah been a hard week lol.

On topic, I think Abaddon eventually gets through to terra. It's prophesied.

All the Phoenix lords will die, Dante will have a show down with Abby at the foot of the golden throne.

All die in a horrifying inferno. Then somewhere, someone, starts it all again.
 

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The Chaos Gods don't care enough though to make that kind of direct assault. Which means it's up to their servants and mortal followers, warriors and slaves who CAN be defeated. The Chaos Gods' power is only as strong as the flow of emotion allows.
1) The last time someone threatened Chaos, what did they do? Steal his sons, destroy everything he built, effectively kill him and remake his Empire in their image. If Chaos feels threatened, they will intervene.
2) As you say, the Gods don't care much about the material realm. Thus, can any defeat there be considered as 'loss' for them? If it isn't important to them, then it isn't a loss to loose it.

The argument here seems to be that the gods themselves need to be killed for them to not count as contenders. This isn't the case. As you said, the c'tan can be breached and scattered, this doesn't necessarily mean they're dead but it does place them in a position where they cannot affect the scales to anywhere near the same degree as if they were still in necrodermis shell. Do you see?
But can the Gods be compromised to a similar degree? A C'tan without its necrodermis is almost completely powerless, a God without lots of emotion is simply hungry. Is a hungry foe a defeated one? A starving animal is at its most dangerous.

By lasting victory, I mean holding the lion's share of the galaxy at large. For Chaos, this would mean their servants have the biggest holdings, perpetuating war death and whatever else the gods want on a galactic scale.
I think it's a mistake to conflate the Gods and their followers in this case. The followers of Chaos are obviously fairly concerned with the material realm, and their fate is directly tied to it. I would call a victory for the mortal forces of Chaos unlikely. However, the Gods themselves don't need their followers to win. It doesn't matter one lick to them who is perpetuating war, etc. Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows and all that. It's the same mistake that leads to people calling the Horus Heresy a loss for Chaos, when it clearly wasn't.

You're arguing the gods cannot be killed makes them automatic winners, but keep in mind that they held very little sway in the time before the War in Heaven and for a long time after. Such a time could easily arise again under the right circumstances.
But is that a loss? The Chaos Gods have repeatedly shown themselves to be more interested in their own War than in the fate of the material realm. Does limiting their influence on the material realm (and for the record we don't really know how limited their influence was in the periods you mention) actually reduce their power? We don't know. Arguably it can't, since they are independent of time. Besides which: Everything else in the race can die. Given sufficient time everything that can die will. Therefore given sufficient time the Chaos Gods will be the only player left standing. If everyone else is dead, haven't they lost? If everyone else has lost, haven't you won?
 

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The way I see it is chaos defeats man.man being cause for the gods minus Spanish means chaos is practically out.tyranids consume all organic matter and move on.necrons being the last ones alive simply go back into slumber.
This theory has lots of errors in it but this was how I was tought it 4 years ago skive just kept by it for the most part
 

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Discussion Starter #35
But is that a loss? The Chaos Gods have repeatedly shown themselves to be more interested in their own War than in the fate of the material realm. Does limiting their influence on the material realm (and for the record we don't really know how limited their influence was in the periods you mention) actually reduce their power?
We know that the Chaos Gods were linked to the current turbulence in the warp, as their power is dependent on the flow of emotion. The Warp was described as calm during the Old Ones' reign, and for a time when Mankind was expanding his empire through the stars. The main support for this is that they have zero mention during the War in Heaven and that Mankind was able to travel the warp relatively safely enough to colonize the galaxy.

Whether or not a period of calm actually reduces their power, it does seem to have an effect on how much they in turn influence the materium. I put forth that while their power is constant, their reach is directly tied to the flow of emotion at any given time period. For example, Slaanesh had little to zero reach in the time before his birth since the eldar were the first to practice hedonism on a large enough scale to make his power truly felt in the Materium. We have no direct references to anything much earlier than that, but I would presume the other gods felt similar limitations during their own first reaches into our universe.

My point being, if the source of their power is reduced (such as by an all consuming galactic predator or a race of genocidal alien machines) I believe such limitations could in time affect them again. Even if not completely, enough for someone else to gain the final advantage and take it will be all they need.

Everything else in the race can die. Given sufficient time everything that can die will. Therefore given sufficient time the Chaos Gods will be the only player left standing. If everyone else is dead, haven't they lost? If everyone else has lost, haven't you won?
Warp Gods have died before. But that's irrelevant, as I said death is not required for a race to have lost. And you're assuming that the other races WILL die when you cannot confirm this. We have ONE example of a c'tan dying under extrenuous circumstances, an occurrence that had never happened before or since. Because of that do you then take it as a guarantee that all of them will eventually die as well?

I think it's a mistake to conflate the Gods and their followers in this case.
Well to be fair, the followers and daemons are who I was actually referring to and I said that a few times. You brought the gods into it.
 

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Whether or not a period of calm actually reduces their power, it does seem to have an effect on how much they in turn influence the materium. I put forth that while their power is constant, their reach is directly tied to the flow of emotion at any given time period. For example, Slaanesh had little to zero reach in the time before his birth since the eldar were the first to practice hedonism on a large enough scale to make his power truly felt in the Materium. We have no direct references to anything much earlier than that, but I would presume the other gods felt similar limitations during their own first reaches into our universe.
That's a pretty solid theory, and one I agree with.

My point being, if the source of their power is reduced (such as by an all consuming galactic predator or a race of genocidal alien machines) I believe such limitations could in time affect them again. Even if not completely, enough for someone else to gain the final advantage and take it will be all they need.
My question again would be: is that a loss? I don't think we can say that losing influence over the material realm is something that Chaos would be overly concerned with.

Warp Gods have died before.
Indeed they have. But the Chaos Gods have not. The Eldar pantheon is a different beast from Chaos, what holds true for one does not necessarily hold true for the other.

But that's irrelevant, as I said death is not required for a race to have lost.
It's not required but certainly death does equal a loss. I'm not denying that another faction could claim victory, possibly for a very long period of time but eventually they will all die.

And you're assuming that the other races WILL die when you cannot confirm this. We have ONE example of a c'tan dying under extrenuous circumstances, an occurrence that had never happened before or since. Because of that do you then take it as a guarantee that all of them will eventually die as well?
It's simple physics, everything decays given enough time. Sure that time could be billions upon billions of years, but it will still happen. Given a sufficient period of time any act, however improbable, can be considered guaranteed. The death of the C'tan is highly improbable so clearly it will require a very long period of time to be considered guaranteed, but it will still happen.

Well to be fair, the followers and daemons are who I was actually referring to and I said that a few times. You brought the gods into it.
Well to be fair, your OP just refers to Chaos and mentions both the Gods and their followers, which is at least a little ambiguous.
 

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Discussion Starter #37
It's simple physics, everything decays given enough time. Sure that time could be billions upon billions of years, but it will still happen. Given a sufficient period of time any act, however improbable, can be considered guaranteed. The death of the C'tan is highly improbable so clearly it will require a very long period of time to be considered guaranteed, but it will still happen.
How can you claim this as a certainty? The c'tan are cited as being tied to the very fabric of the universe and therefore nigh impossible to destroy. I could argue that their death won't occur until the universe itself finally collapses because there is no naturally occurring phenomenon capable of ending their existence.

My question again would be: is that a loss? I don't think we can say that losing influence over the material realm is something that Chaos would be overly concerned with.
Well it certainly isn't a lasting victory over the materium is it?
 

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Keep in mind that the Tyranids aren't here to stay. To my understanding, they have come from another galaxy, once that they've already scoured of all life. Even if they do destroy the Milky Way, they will simply move on.

So whomever survives their passing will be inheritors of the Galaxy. That may well mean the Chaos Legions, the Necrons, maybe even a few crafty Eldar and certainly the Dark Eldar. Humanity, Orks, and Tau may not be so fortunate.
 
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