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Who ordered the Wolves to punish the Thousand Sons?

3K views 25 replies 8 participants last post by  hailene 
#1 ·
So I thought it was a given that the Emperor asked Russ to bring back the Thousand Sons to Terra for censure--not to wipe them out. The order to destroy the Thousand Sons was supposedly given either by Chaos-turned Horus or some demon in his guise.

But in Vengeful Spirit we see the Emperor praising the destruction of the Thousand Sons to Malcador. He tells Malcador that Magnus deserved to be destroyed.

Now this has me confused. There's no sense of regret of being tricked by the now openly traitor Horus. Nothing about how Magnus's warning was not a lie to give reason for Magnus's dabbling in sorcery. The Emperor is completely satisfied of wiping out a loyal Legion (and making its remnants an enemy) and the fierce wounding the Wolves suffered in one of the most crucial moments of the young Imperium.

Was it actually the Emperor that called for the Sons to be destroyed? Or is it just hindsight on the Emperor's part. You know, since Magnus vanished with his remaining sons via sorcery, in the end the Emperor feels justified?

Or just another screw-up on McNeil's part?

His approach towards space-fantasy (or is it space-opera?) grates on my nerves. But that's another thread.
 
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#3 ·
Horus deceived Russ and Valdor into going all out. The main TS character in Talon of Horus admits it, and it's why he doesn't blame the Wolves for what they did.

As for the mixed signals from the Emperor, he may have ordered them to capture rather than kill, but when he heard of just how far into forbidden knowledge the TS had delved, and what their tutelaries really were after they revealed their true form during the battle, he might have decided that the destruction of Prospero and the TS was the right result.
 
#4 ·
As for the mixed signals from the Emperor, he may have ordered them to capture rather than kill, but when he heard of just how far into forbidden knowledge the TS had delved, and what their tutelaries really were after they revealed their true form during the battle, he might have decided that the destruction of Prospero and the TS was the right result.
Aye, that's really the only reason I can think of the Emperor approving of the destruction of the Thousand Sons.

You'd think he'd be a bit more pragmatic and bemoan the loss of basically 1 1/2 Loyal Legions during the most brutal civil war the Imperium has ever experienced.

Particularly since such a loss was engineered by the leader of said rebellion.

Maybe the Emperor is just looking at the silver lining. I still think it'd be a little bit sad the Emperor didn't appreciate the sacrifice Magnus did in warning Him about Horus's betrayal.
 
#9 ·
It's interesting how the more he features in the Heresy, the more harsh Valdors character is said to be. Malcador in particular refers to him as having a callous soul, and how even the massacre at Istvaan V would be unlikely to cause him and real sorrow. But I suppose when the Emperors safety is your only priority, there can't be any room for levity or concern over others. To me that shows one of the reasons why Valdor would be so quick or unrestrained to agree to a kill order instead. Magnus was a potential threat to the Emperor, in Valdors eyes, he had to be eliminated due to this, no matter what the cost.

One thought on the matter anyway.
 
#10 ·
I agree. We already have examples of Malcador and Valdor either going against the Emperor's will or acting without his express permission - eg. The assassination attempts on Horus. It is only logical that Valdor was pushing his own agenda onto Russ's mission to Prospero, his "sinister urgings" designed to sway Russ towards "a destination of total destruction". Of course, I am not questioning his loyalty, merely that he felt that Magnus was a direct threat to the Emperor and needed completely removing from the equation.

The Burning of Prospero remains one of the greatest tragedies of the Horus Heresy.
 
#20 ·
I was hoping for some specific citations that state so.

We have no idea when precisely the tutelaries came into practice. Nor whether every (or even a significant minority) of Thousand Sons had them.

Also that correlation does not imply causation. You'll need more proof than that. At least as something as poorly understood (by our modern reckoning) as things dealing with the Warp.
 
#21 · (Edited)
I have no specific citations, I never claimed to have. It's just the overall impression I got from reading the book as a whole. The use of tutelaries certainly wasn't a recent thing though. It was definitely going on under the Emperor's nose.

I don't think you can argue that Magnus' pact and the use of tutelaries were two seperate, completely unconnected occurrences though.
 
#22 ·
It's just the overall impression I got from reading the book as a whole.
It's difficult to have a discussion with "overall impressions". They're too...soft. That's why we need citations and facts. A conversation will go no where if I we just give our feelings on the subject. No where concrete, anyway.

The use of tutelaries certainly wasn't a recent thing though.
Recent is relative. Recent since Magnus took the reins? Yeah, sure. No question about that.

Recent that they came about before the Great Crusade found Magnus? I think there's room for argument there. I haven't read much pre-Magnus TS fluff (I'm in the middle of reading Talon of Horus, so maybe that will change), but in my limited reading I haven't seen a tutelary pre-Magnus.

I don't think you can argue that Magnus' pact and the use of tutelaries were two seperate, completely unconnected occurrences though.
Completely unconnected? I agree with you. Cause and effect? I think you have your work cut out for you.

I skimmed through Thousand Sons earlier today. I saw a tutelary cause a marine to explode...others urging them to fight and use their powers. I did not see any specific narrative that said the tutelary caused the flesh change.
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Basically, in short, this conversation can not really proceed without you giving some citations that support your view point. Afterall, an argument from ignorance, is not an argument at all.
 
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