Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner

1 - 20 of 26 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,215 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So I thought it was a given that the Emperor asked Russ to bring back the Thousand Sons to Terra for censure--not to wipe them out. The order to destroy the Thousand Sons was supposedly given either by Chaos-turned Horus or some demon in his guise.

But in Vengeful Spirit we see the Emperor praising the destruction of the Thousand Sons to Malcador. He tells Malcador that Magnus deserved to be destroyed.

Now this has me confused. There's no sense of regret of being tricked by the now openly traitor Horus. Nothing about how Magnus's warning was not a lie to give reason for Magnus's dabbling in sorcery. The Emperor is completely satisfied of wiping out a loyal Legion (and making its remnants an enemy) and the fierce wounding the Wolves suffered in one of the most crucial moments of the young Imperium.

Was it actually the Emperor that called for the Sons to be destroyed? Or is it just hindsight on the Emperor's part. You know, since Magnus vanished with his remaining sons via sorcery, in the end the Emperor feels justified?

Or just another screw-up on McNeil's part?

His approach towards space-fantasy (or is it space-opera?) grates on my nerves. But that's another thread.
 

·
Dazed and confused.
Joined
·
8,496 Posts
Horus deceived Russ and Valdor into going all out. The main TS character in Talon of Horus admits it, and it's why he doesn't blame the Wolves for what they did.

As for the mixed signals from the Emperor, he may have ordered them to capture rather than kill, but when he heard of just how far into forbidden knowledge the TS had delved, and what their tutelaries really were after they revealed their true form during the battle, he might have decided that the destruction of Prospero and the TS was the right result.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,215 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
As for the mixed signals from the Emperor, he may have ordered them to capture rather than kill, but when he heard of just how far into forbidden knowledge the TS had delved, and what their tutelaries really were after they revealed their true form during the battle, he might have decided that the destruction of Prospero and the TS was the right result.
Aye, that's really the only reason I can think of the Emperor approving of the destruction of the Thousand Sons.

You'd think he'd be a bit more pragmatic and bemoan the loss of basically 1 1/2 Loyal Legions during the most brutal civil war the Imperium has ever experienced.

Particularly since such a loss was engineered by the leader of said rebellion.

Maybe the Emperor is just looking at the silver lining. I still think it'd be a little bit sad the Emperor didn't appreciate the sacrifice Magnus did in warning Him about Horus's betrayal.
 

·
Dazed and confused.
Joined
·
8,496 Posts
You'd think he'd be a bit more pragmatic and bemoan the loss of basically 1 1/2 Loyal Legions during the most brutal civil war the Imperium has ever experienced.
Not really. Considering that he is the only person in the Imperium that knows the true nature of the Chaos powers, he's probably glad that the TS were removed from play before their corruption was complete and they switched loyalty to Horus while still a viable fighting force, probably becoming the most powerful one amongst the traitor legions.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
332 Posts
Horus deceived Russ and Valdor into going all out. The main TS character in Talon of Horus admits it, and it's why he doesn't blame the Wolves for what they did.

As for the mixed signals from the Emperor, he may have ordered them to capture rather than kill, but when he heard of just how far into forbidden knowledge the TS had delved, and what their tutelaries really were after they revealed their true form during the battle, he might have decided that the destruction of Prospero and the TS was the right result.
I agree. I was under the impression that the Emperor sent the Wolves to bring the TS back to Terra, or be sanctioned. Horus played a part in convincing Russ to destroy the TS and Magnus. And if I'm not mistaken in A Thousand Son's it is also suggested that Valedor influenced the event aswell, maybe with instruction from Macaldor
 

·
Dazed and confused.
Joined
·
8,496 Posts
And if I'm not mistaken in A Thousand Son's it is also suggested that Valedor influenced the event aswell, maybe with instruction from Macaldor
Yeah, it was definitely hinted at that at the very least he knew it wasn't a kill order, but didn't do anything to rein in Russ. He may have had his own agenda, or possibly Malcador's.
 

·
The Emperor Protects
Joined
·
5,262 Posts
It's interesting how the more he features in the Heresy, the more harsh Valdors character is said to be. Malcador in particular refers to him as having a callous soul, and how even the massacre at Istvaan V would be unlikely to cause him and real sorrow. But I suppose when the Emperors safety is your only priority, there can't be any room for levity or concern over others. To me that shows one of the reasons why Valdor would be so quick or unrestrained to agree to a kill order instead. Magnus was a potential threat to the Emperor, in Valdors eyes, he had to be eliminated due to this, no matter what the cost.

One thought on the matter anyway.
 

·
Bane of Empires
Joined
·
5,131 Posts
It's interesting how the more he features in the Heresy, the more harsh Valdors character is said to be. Malcador in particular refers to him as having a callous soul, and how even the massacre at Istvaan V would be unlikely to cause him and real sorrow. But I suppose when the Emperors safety is your only priority, there can't be any room for levity or concern over others. To me that shows one of the reasons why Valdor would be so quick or unrestrained to agree to a kill order instead. Magnus was a potential threat to the Emperor, in Valdors eyes, he had to be eliminated due to this, no matter what the cost.

One thought on the matter anyway.
I agree. We already have examples of Malcador and Valdor either going against the Emperor's will or acting without his express permission - eg. The assassination attempts on Horus. It is only logical that Valdor was pushing his own agenda onto Russ's mission to Prospero, his "sinister urgings" designed to sway Russ towards "a destination of total destruction". Of course, I am not questioning his loyalty, merely that he felt that Magnus was a direct threat to the Emperor and needed completely removing from the equation.

The Burning of Prospero remains one of the greatest tragedies of the Horus Heresy.
 

·
Dazed and confused.
Joined
·
8,496 Posts
The Burning of Prospero remains one of the greatest tragedies of the Horus Heresy.
I will disagree with that. I think if they had been allowed to finish their journey down the road to corruption the Heresy would have ended very differently. Magnus himself was responsible for allowing his sons to bond with demons, irrevocably corrupting them. Even if he had seen his mistake, there was nothing he could have done about it. Tzeentch would have cashed in his chips at some crucial point in the future when the TS were in a key position amongst the loyalists. Imagine if they were on the Walls of the Palace when that happened.

Apart from the Emperor killing Horus, the burning of Prospero was possibly one of the key reasons for the loyalist victory IMO.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,215 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Apart from the Emperor killing Horus, the burning of Prospero was possibly one of the key reasons for the loyalist victory IMO.
I think their path to damnation was much further than the length of the Heresy. With Magnus at the helm, I'd assume they'd be fine for at least a few centuries more. That's just a guess on my part.

With the Thousand Sons on the Loyalist side, I think, as the Horus-daemon thing said in Prospero Burns, Horus would have had a much harder time in the war against the Emperor.

Recrimination and punishment could be meted out after the crisis.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,215 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
They wouldn't go to that much trouble to not activate them during the Heresy.
I figure it was the opposite. They Thousand Sons weren't ready to be used as a weapon for Chaos, not yet. That's why the Ruinious Powers had to wipe them from the table before they could be used as a weapon against them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
86 Posts
I figure it was the opposite. They Thousand Sons weren't ready to be used as a weapon for Chaos, not yet. That's why the Ruinious Powers had to wipe them from the table before they could be used as a weapon against them.
I agree. I think they were a loyal legion, albeit already being influenced by deamons (though they were not sure what they wee dealing with) but ultimately loyal. Horus, played by the RP as he always was during the Heresy plied the seeds of destruction by manipulating Leman Russ and the SW. A lot more detail is given in the Talon of Horus.
 

·
Craw-Daddy
Joined
·
4,472 Posts
I will disagree with that. I think if they had been allowed to finish their journey down the road to corruption the Heresy would have ended very differently. Magnus himself was responsible for allowing his sons to bond with demons, irrevocably corrupting them. Even if he had seen his mistake, there was nothing he could have done about it. Tzeentch would have cashed in his chips at some crucial point in the future when the TS were in a key position amongst the loyalists. Imagine if they were on the Walls of the Palace when that happened.

Apart from the Emperor killing Horus, the burning of Prospero was possibly one of the key reasons for the loyalist victory IMO.
I agree, it seemed to me that the Emperor and Malcador had their own insight about the realities of the Thousand Sons and Magnus' influence with Chaos Allies. From a distance I think we look at their actions and thoughts as very cold and perhaps even close-minded, however, I believe Malcador and the Emperor have their own concepts of Chaos and the Warp. I dare say that they perhaps have the greatest insight of any in the Imperium and perhaps extending to what we even know in the 40k world (with the codexes and other lore that has been created about it).
 

·
Dazed and confused.
Joined
·
8,496 Posts
I figure it was the opposite. They Thousand Sons weren't ready to be used as a weapon for Chaos, not yet.
But the fact that they warped as soon as battle was joined proves that they were. The tutelaries were all that were keeping their mutations at bey, and once these demons decided that the time was right to cut loose, their fate was sealed. They were firmly under the sway of chaos from the time the very first SM bonded with a demon.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,215 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
The tutelaries were all that were keeping their mutations at bey, and once these demons decided that the time was right to cut loose, their fate was sealed.
That's quite a bold statement.

I've been digging through Thousands Sons to try to find proof of this, but I'm having trouble. Could you list where and when exactly it states the tutelaries had willingly destroyed the Thousand Sons?

And the flesh change afflicted the Thousand Sons before they met with Magnus. I find it hard to believe the Thousand Sons would have consorted with daemons while under the Emperor's watch.
 

·
Dazed and confused.
Joined
·
8,496 Posts
And the flesh change afflicted the Thousand Sons before they met with Magnus. I find it hard to believe the Thousand Sons would have consorted with daemons while under the Emperor's watch.
Magnus "cured" the flesh change by making a deal with forces in the Warp. The tutelaries were shown to be demons in A Thousand Sons. They had been using them since Magnus sealed the deal. Which has to mean that the deal, and use of the tutelary/demons are linked, and affect the flesh change. It went on for over a hundred years on the Emperor's watch.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,215 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I was hoping for some specific citations that state so.

We have no idea when precisely the tutelaries came into practice. Nor whether every (or even a significant minority) of Thousand Sons had them.

Also that correlation does not imply causation. You'll need more proof than that. At least as something as poorly understood (by our modern reckoning) as things dealing with the Warp.
 
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
Top