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Curze says in Pharos that he can beat most of the primarchs including Sanguinius (doubtful about this since it was said Sanguinius can possibly defeat Angron). It got me thinking who could actually beat Curze in a fight and who would lose. I made my list below, which is divided into "definites" and "maybes".

Definite
Horus
Leman Russ (executioner, believes he can kill Horus)

Maybe
Lion El'Jonson (badly wounded Curze in prince of crows)
Sanguinius (considered to be one of the best primarchs in melee combat)
Corax
Angron
Fulgrim

There's a lot of conjecture on my part here. I'd like to know what other people's thoughts are on this topic.
 

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The Emperor Protects
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There's no definitive way with any of them tbh. The Khan is amazing in combat, whilst Mortarion is so durable he just wears anyone else down, as seen in Scars for both of them. It's just going to be based on who writes it.
 

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and i dont know why you say Horus for Definite since he wasnt as good a fighter as some of the others he was just an all rounder
 

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After 2 bottles of Buckfast, I'd give him a run for his money! As A.O.B says hard to put a definite on it, as it as it varies between authours on what primarchs are like, in "the lightning tower" Dorn reckons he would have beaten Kurze if he had not been sucker punched, and that he would "spit" Angron in a fight
 

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Other than Angron beating Russ in night of the wolves in one on one combat, has there been ever a Primarch match with a clear winner? Lion and Curze are at a draw with 1-1 each (iirc), Russ vs Magnus, many will say that it was a lucky shot. I don't think there has been a clear winner in any other Primarch feud other than the one between Russ and Angron.

Vulkan vs Curze? Probably Vulkan but he didn't exactly won in the end. Bottom-line is that even after 30+ HH novels, there can be no Primarch strength ranking.
 

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The Emperor Protects
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Other than Angron beating Russ in night of the wolves in one on one combat, has there been ever a Primarch match with a clear winner? Lion and Curze are at a draw with 1-1 each (iirc), Russ vs Magnus, many will say that it was a lucky shot. I don't think there has been a clear winner in any other Primarch feud other than the one between Russ and Angron.

Vulkan vs Curze? Probably Vulkan but he didn't exactly won in the end. Bottom-line is that even after 30+ HH novels, there can be no Primarch strength ranking.
Well before Lorgar had is 'awakening' Corax absolutely dominated him. Probably far more than any other fight.

I wouldn't say Angron and Russ is a fair example either. Russ didn't want to kill Angron and wasn't willing to either I don't think, he just had a hubris moment and genuinely thought Angron would back down. Angron on the other hand was more than willing, plus he would have died anyway as the Legion had surrounded him, cutting him off from his own men.
 

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Although I found Curze in UE rather over the top,
based upon betrayer and the fight Russ vs Angron, I would say Angron definitely has an edge,
The Khan was convincing against Mortarion, I think he won on points,
Fulgrim got help from a Daemonic sword...
but these are rather pointless discussions as in the end Kharn the naysayer is right, Rupert would have beaten them all, if he was not suffering from cmd
we have heard about the martial prowess of Sanguinus and his wrath, it's about time we actually get to read about it
 

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I recall someone used the forgeworld rules for the primarchs to put up a power ranking. Horus came out on top because of his rules simply trashing everyone else.
 

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Well before Lorgar had is 'awakening' Corax absolutely dominated him. Probably far more than any other fight.
Yeah forgot about it, but as you said "You have changed" Lorgar is a different beast, he did dominated the demon Fulgrim and speaking of Fulgrim, what about Fulgrim vs Ferrus? I forgot about that too, although second encounter couldn't be said to be strictly fair, I do think that their first encounter on Ferrus' flagship was fair and Fulgrim did came on top at the end of it.

Horus is still to fight any Primarch but I think he will be written as someone who will win any conflict against any other Primarch. Probably we can see a Russ vs Horus match soon.

Then I do understand that writing one Primarch as absolutely better than other is problematic.
 

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I dunno which of the other primarchs would take him on after his super-duper smoke ninja powers in The Unremembered Empire, but I'd certainly fight him for a tenner! Or a bowl of soup.
 

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Guilliman bests Lorgar and Alpharius
Fulgrim bests Ferrus Manus
Angron bests Guilliman and Russ
Curze bests Vulkan? and repeatedly fights the Lion. Also bests Corax but that's kinda unfair to say
Corax bests Lorgar
I know there are others, I've no doubt forgotten a few but those are the main ones I've read about that stick in my memory
 

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Curze says in Pharos that he can beat most of the primarchs including Sanguinius
Leman Russ thinks he can beat Traitor Horus

"thinks"

The Lion has beaten Curze. It was a bit more than "badly wounded". The Lion was standing, saluting a fallen foe.

Curze was gushing blood from his throat before entering a coma. That's called losing
 

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I personally think that a lot of Primarchs would overcome Curze in pure melee duel (Vulkan did it twice while being weakened, for instance, bare hands and with his hammer).

If I had to make the ranking of Primarchs in that matter, I would split them up in 3 groups :

The best ones

1. Horus (seen as the best by all the others, he barely defeated the Emperor himself when boosted by Chaos)
2. Sanguinius (defeated a great Bloodthirster at Signus Prime)
3. Angron (beated Leman Russ and Guilliman)
4. Fulgrim (perfect duellist, defeated an Avatar of Khaine)
5. Leman Russ (defeated by Angron, beated Magnus)
6. Vulkan (beated Curze twice)

The average ones

7. Roboute Guilliman (defeated by Angron)
8. Mortarion (slightly overcoming the Khan)
9. Jagatai Khan (closely losing against Mortarion)
10. Lion El'Jonson (defeated Curze)
11. Perturabo (weaker than the "elevated" Fulgrim)
12. Ferrus Manus (killed by Fulgrim)

The weak ones

13. Konrad Curze (beaten by Vulkan and Lion El'Jonson, overcoming Corax)
14. Corax (better than Lorgar, slightly weaker than Curze)
15. Rogal Dorn (beaten by Curze)
16. Magnus the Red (beaten by Leman Russ)
17. Alpharius (physically shorter than his brothers, likely beaten by Guilliman)
18. Lorgar (beaten by Corax and Guilliman)
 

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The Emperor Protects
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I personally think that a lot of Primarchs would overcome Curze in pure melee duel (Vulkan did it twice while being weakened, for instance, bare hands and with his hammer).

If I had to make the ranking of Primarchs in that matter, I would split them up in 3 groups :

The best ones

1. Horus (seen as the best by all the others, he barely defeated the Emperor himself when boosted by Chaos)
2. Sanguinius (defeated a great Bloodthirster at Signus Prime)
3. Angron (beated Leman Russ and Guilliman)
4. Fulgrim (perfect duellist, defeated an Avatar of Khaine)
5. Leman Russ (defeated by Angron, beated Magnus)
6. Vulkan (beated Curze twice)

The average ones

7. Roboute Guilliman (defeated by Angron)
8. Mortarion (slightly overcoming the Khan)
9. Jagatai Khan (closely losing against Mortarion)
10. Lion El'Jonson (defeated Curze)
11. Perturabo (weaker than the "elevated" Fulgrim)
12. Ferrus Manus (killed by Fulgrim)

The weak ones

13. Konrad Curze (beaten by Vulkan and Lion El'Jonson, overcoming Corax)
14. Corax (better than Lorgar, slightly weaker than Curze)
15. Rogal Dorn (beaten by Curze)
16. Magnus the Red (beaten by Leman Russ)
17. Alpharius (physically shorter than his brothers, likely beaten by Guilliman)
18. Lorgar (beaten by Corax and Guilliman)
Angron beat Guilliman? You mean Angron and Lorgar beat Guilliman, who was still holding his own against both of them for a while.

As Monty said for 8 and 9, where do you get that Mortarion slightly best the Khan.

How is the Lion average?

Also for 11. Whilst I agree that Perterabo isn't amongst the top tier, he had been drained of all his energy by the stone Fulgrim 'gifted' him beforehand. His actual life force was being sucked into the stone for Fulgrimd use.

14. Saying Corax was in anyway beaten by Curze is also one of those that gets floated around. Corax had just brutally beaten and envicerated Lorgar, and would have killed him had Curze not intervened. Corax is smart, he's already been fighting desperately on Istvaan V even before the second wave, he's then slaughtered his way through the Gal Vorbak and Lorgsr, but now is up against a fresh Curze and can see his men getting slaughtered. It's either pull back and help his men, or fight Curze, who is fresh, watch his men get slaughtered more and have Lorgar rejoin the fight if it takes too long.

As for Alpharius, it's very, very unlikely he was killed by Guilliman. Everything about Eskrsdor screams Alpha Legion manipulations. But more telling, the whole account was told by an Inquistor who later fled after being suspected of being an Alpha Legion agent. The Ultramarines themselves are sceptical about Eskrador.

I would place both the Khan and the Lion in the upper tier as well.
 

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In what world is this true?
The feeling I had after reading Scars is that the Khan and his Terminators would have lost the fight against Mortarion and his Terminators if Mortarion didn't have to leave in order to save his whole fleet.

I'll read it again soon and see if I feel different afterwards.

Also, if you're gonna say Curze beat Dorn, then you'd have to say the Lion beat Russ
From what I know about the Lion and Russ, it looks more like a quarrel than a real fight (but that comes from the global W40K background, not the novels). Dorn has clearly been beaten down by Curze, who dominated the fight until he alone (Fulgrim presence in the area maybe helped it, though) decided to put an end to it.
 

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I don't think there is an undoubtful ranking between all Primarchs, even in a specific domain. This is just my own feeling, and the difference between many of them could just be a tie.

Angron beat Guilliman? You mean Angron and Lorgar beat Guilliman, who was still holding his own against both of them for a while.
Lorgar is one of the weakest (maybe "the" weakest) in melee (he hit an unaware Guilliman to the ground, but I'm pretty sure he would have lost a real ensuing fight).

And I'm also pretty sure that Angron beats Guilliman, because the melee is his key domain. Guilliman strategy and thinking is not much use against blind fury at close quarters (Angron would have crushed Kor Phaeron in less than 2 moves, according to me).

As Monty said for 8 and 9, where do you get that Mortarion slightly best the Khan.

How is the Lion average?
Because, for me, he's not in the top 6 (but maybe close to it, like Guilliman, and maybe above the Khan and Mortarion ... it's difficult to make a real hierarchy between those of the average group).

Also for 11. Whilst I agree that Perterabo isn't amongst the top tier, he had been drained of all his energy by the stone Fulgrim 'gifted' him beforehand. His actual life force was being sucked into the stone for Fulgrimd use.
Sure. But Fulgrim (and his legion) is a duellist by nature, where Perturabo is a tactician (playing chess or the wargame of the attack of Terra, I would say the opposite, of course).

14. Saying Corax was in anyway beaten by Curze is also one of those that gets floated around. Corax had just brutally beaten and envicerated Lorgar, and would have killed him had Curze not intervened. Corax is smart, he's already been fighting desperately on Istvaan V even before the second wave, he's then slaughtered his way through the Gal Vorbak and Lorgsr, but now is up against a fresh Curze and can see his men getting slaughtered. It's either pull back and help his men, or fight Curze, who is fresh, watch his men get slaughtered more and have Lorgar rejoin the fight if it takes too long.
How higher would you put Corax in such ranking, then ? Above Curze, I would agree ... they are in the same category for me : good fighter, but their true strength relies out of the direct hand to hand fight (stealth, hit and run, ambush, ...).

As for Alpharius, it's very, very unlikely he was killed by Guilliman. Everything about Eskrsdor screams Alpha Legion manipulations. But more telling, the whole account was told by an Inquistor who later fled after being suspected of being an Alpha Legion agent. The Ultramarines themselves are sceptical about Eskrador.
Who knows ?

What remains is that Alpharius, by nature, is not oriented towards direct close combat, and that he is shorter and thinner than the other Primarchs, which helps his Space Marines to pretend being him. Height and weight are both key assets in melee.

I would place both the Khan and the Lion in the upper tier as well.
Above which Primarch of this upper tier ?
 

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Although I found Curze in UE rather over the top,
based upon betrayer and the fight Russ vs Angron, I would say Angron definitely has an edge,
The Khan was convincing against Mortarion, I think he won on points,
Fulgrim got help from a Daemonic sword...
but these are rather pointless discussions as in the end Kharn the naysayer is right, Rupert would have beaten them all, if he was not suffering from cmd
we have heard about the martial prowess of Sanguinus and his wrath, it's about time we actually get to read about it
Fear to Tread? for Sanguinius I meant
 

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Angron beat Guilliman? You mean Angron and Lorgar beat Guilliman, who was still holding his own against both of them for a while.

As Monty said for 8 and 9, where do you get that Mortarion slightly best the Khan.

How is the Lion average?

Also for 11. Whilst I agree that Perterabo isn't amongst the top tier, he had been drained of all his energy by the stone Fulgrim 'gifted' him beforehand. His actual life force was being sucked into the stone for Fulgrimd use.

14. Saying Corax was in anyway beaten by Curze is also one of those that gets floated around. Corax had just brutally beaten and envicerated Lorgar, and would have killed him had Curze not intervened. Corax is smart, he's already been fighting desperately on Istvaan V even before the second wave, he's then slaughtered his way through the Gal Vorbak and Lorgsr, but now is up against a fresh Curze and can see his men getting slaughtered. It's either pull back and help his men, or fight Curze, who is fresh, watch his men get slaughtered more and have Lorgar rejoin the fight if it takes too long.

As for Alpharius, it's very, very unlikely he was killed by Guilliman. Everything about Eskrsdor screams Alpha Legion manipulations. But more telling, the whole account was told by an Inquistor who later fled after being suspected of being an Alpha Legion agent. The Ultramarines themselves are sceptical about Eskrador.

I would place both the Khan and the Lion in the upper tier as well.

Thank you! Couldn't have said it better myself although I personally wonder If Girlyman did kill Alpharius but that's a bit of a grey area
 
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