Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner

61 - 80 of 85 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
430 Posts
I'd eliminate Orks. In terms of races to add? Hrud. Or one of the other underdeveloped alien races (Dracolith or Draxians, whatever they are).

Orks are brutal if unsophisticated warriors, yes, but if you take out their humor that's ALL they are. No complexity possible, no interesting nooks, like stereotypical Khorne Berserkers. And humor doesn't help much either. It's just... they're not even alien. Merely boring. Tyranids at least have a neat aesthetic, but that's it, again zero depth beyond 'om nom nom'. Villains having some sort of motivation or complexity isn't a bad thing, people. Look at Chaos Marines, or even Daemons. Mind you, taking out Orks massively changes 40K. I'd prefer to have them 'fixed' like the Necrons were.

Post-5th Necrons are awesome. They're parallel to the Eldar, yes, but really quite distinct. Both killed their own gods, yes, but one intentionally in defiance, the other accidentally and caused an apocalypse. Both are ancient, but one slept the aeons and is now awakening and the other evolved through them (through generations) and fights to stop its seemingly inevitable fading. They have distinct aesthetics, which is quite important, and psychic vs. Materium ties. The Necrons are divided but believe they should be united, the Eldar are more or less united in practice even if they're nominally independent. The Necrons enslave other races, the Eldar manipulate them.

The Tau are also worth having, as a xeno faction that is comparable to humanity - all the other major xenos are either elder races or near-mindless (Tau-Humans, Eldar-Necrons, Orks-Tyranids-Daemons... young empires, ancient relics, and destructive scourges.). And the complaints of 'anime aesthetic' make no sense to me. All the 40K races look different, that's part of the point.

As for races to add, again, I want something maximally distinct. The Hrud (just don't make them look like Skaven) as a third elder race, or some previously mentioned xenos species as a third younger race.

All IMHO, of course.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
205 Posts
I'd eliminate Orks. In terms of races to add? Hrud. Or one of the other underdeveloped alien races (Dracolith or Draxians, whatever they are).

Orks are brutal if unsophisticated warriors, yes, but if you take out their humor that's ALL they are. No complexity possible, no interesting nooks, like stereotypical Khorne Berserkers. And humor doesn't help much either. It's just... they're not even alien. Merely boring. Tyranids at least have a neat aesthetic, but that's it, again zero depth beyond 'om nom nom'. Villains having some sort of motivation or complexity isn't a bad thing, people. Look at Chaos Marines, or even Daemons. Mind you, taking out Orks massively changes 40K. I'd prefer to have them 'fixed' like the Necrons were.

Oo's dah villin umie skum?!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
190 Posts
Discussion Starter #63
Orks are brutal if unsophisticated warriors, yes, but if you take out their humor that's ALL they are. No complexity possible, no interesting nooks, like stereotypical Khorne Berserkers. And humor doesn't help much either. It's just... they're not even alien. Merely boring. Tyranids at least have a neat aesthetic, but that's it, again zero depth beyond 'om nom nom'. Villains having some sort of motivation or complexity isn't a bad thing, people. Look at Chaos Marines, or even Daemons. Mind you, taking out Orks massively changes 40K. I'd prefer to have them 'fixed' like the Necrons were.
The Beast arises series proves you wrong in all those aspects. It's not just Orks physical size and combat prowess that grows with their evolution, but their society and culture as well, to the point they're capable of fielding diplomats.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
455 Posts
Necrons for sure. Of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and taste, but I find Necron supporters to be rabidly vocal. Check any Dawn of War forum or youtube comments section and you'll find an endless stream of people begging for Necrons to be a playable race. Even on the Battlefleet Gothic Armada comments, people are demanding Necrons to be the next playable race (it'll be Tau though). They are fans beyond sense and reason. How can Necrons be part of such a game when they barely have any variety of ships?

Hmm...so perhaps my issue isn't with Necrons, but with Necron fans. OK, I change my vote. Remove Necron fans from 40K.
 

·
Critique for da CriticGod
Joined
·
3,351 Posts
Necrons for sure. ...

Hmm...so perhaps my issue isn't with Necrons, but with Necron fans. OK, I change my vote. Remove Necron fans from 40K.
Haha. I'm right there with you. I think Necrons and Tau were lame additions. I think gw could have come up with better new factions than (ancient) Egyptianate terminators and "anime."

Developing the gene stealer cult further would have been a better choice. Developing an Interex-like cybernetic human civilization could have very compelling. Or something totally new.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
455 Posts
. I think gw could have come up with better new factions than (ancient) Egyptianate terminators and "anime."
You give them too much credit for originality. It was just a robot version of GW's fantasy Khemri/Vampire Counts. I'm half surprised they didn't make a robot Nagash.

I guess they also have to look at marketability. If they make something too off the wall, will anyone even buy it?
Hell, if they made an army of shoggoths, it sounds awesome in theory, but I don't know how well such a thing would sell. If nobody buys the army, is there any point in making it?
People are going to buy Gundams and people are going to by Terminator Skeletons. Actually, based on this, I suspect the next army will be a Pony Unicorn army.
 

·
Critique for da CriticGod
Joined
·
3,351 Posts
...
People are going to buy Gundams and people are going to by Terminator Skeletons. Actually, based on this, I suspect the next army will be a Pony Unicorn army.
Ugh. That's what happens when marketing runs the show.

I don't give them any undue credit for creativity. Gw has borrowed liberally from literature, fantasy, history, sci-fi, and film. I am under no illusions. The last real addition to the factions was Tyranids which is obviously borrowed heavily from Starship Troopers and Aliens.

My contention is that they could have chosen better for their next/latest "borrowing."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,323 Posts
Guys, Necrons were introduced via Gorkamorka and then given WD rules for 40k during 2nd edition. We're in 7th bordering on 8th within a year if you believe the rumour mill. It's time to move on :grin:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,323 Posts
Re-reading @Kreuger's comment Tyranids came out way before Starship Troopers and the Alien franchise is amazing: GW should steal more from there (looks directly at Dreadknight) :biggrin:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,694 Posts
Tyranids came out way before Starship Troopers
Starship troopers the book was published in 1959. the same book contains the very first appearance of a Space Marine as we know it: big techno armour filled with gadgets that make him look like a gorilla, also drop podding from high orbit, jump packs etc...
Warhammer was a big rip-off of Heinlein stories, especially Starship troopers, from the very beginning.
First edition cover: does it rings a bell??
 
  • Like
Reactions: jin and ntaw

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,323 Posts
Ha! Didn't realize the book was that old. Truth be told I wasn't contesting the similarities but rather the influence. Good call :eek:k:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,694 Posts
oh well, the influence, imo, is all there: a few hiper tech warriors fighting against thousands of mindless beasts...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
455 Posts


Despite there being numerous novels and short stories which use Space Marines, all of which pre-date GW, the lawyers at GW have decided that they own the name Space Marine.


On a completely different note...I wonder if Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone poop money? They wrote the Fighting Fantasy novels, which I grew up with (and with numerous fingers in numerous pages in case I made the wrong choice) and then they decided to make GW. Steve Jackson went on to found Lionhead studios with Peter Molyneux and Ian Livingstone was CEO of Eidos. Now that I think about it, these two men probably had a bigger influence over my childhood entertainment than anyone else in the world.
 

·
Angryman
Joined
·
4,304 Posts
I vaguely remember the introduction of the necrons when it happened, and also remember it being a good thing. Only thing I dislike about the necrons was the massive fluff change when they became much less mysterious a few years ago. As for the orks, as one of the original original races of 40k I still love them, however the big fluff change to make them reproduce by spores and that kind of thing still irritates me, I prefer the old fluff from Waauuugh the Orks and Ere We Go. And I know this will irk some people, but I liked the squats. I still have an original Squat mole mortar I have to assemble and paint. As for genestealer cults, they are a faction that cries out to be created by conversions, not as a full army, of course that is not how GW operates any more. I originally played the space marine epic scale game in the late 80's but saw the 40k development alongside it. The main factions I would like to see go is the huge plethora of redundant space marine armies. To my mind they should almost all be condensed into a single book with plenty of options, rather than so many distinct armies for which the basis is the same. Thing is my mates and I still play whatever edition we feel like, usually 5th or 6th and we generally play for fluff, and I am a chaos man always have been and always will be.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
205 Posts
oh well, the influence, imo, is all there: a few hiper tech warriors fighting against thousands of mindless beasts...
happens to me every day
most all day long -
as soon as i leave my home,
and often enough looking in the mirror.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
205 Posts
I vaguely remember the introduction of the necrons when it happened, and also remember it being a good thing. Only thing I dislike about the necrons was the massive fluff change when they became much less mysterious a few years ago.
me too.
the background story is ok tho why not...

what in particular do you not like about it?

As for the orks, as one of the original original races of 40k I still love them, however the big fluff change to make them reproduce by spores and that kind of thing still irritates me, I prefer the old fluff from Waauuugh the Orks and Ere We Go.
you made me read (again?)
the warhammer 40k wikia entry for orks.
how did the ere we go stuff differ?
i think that i had a copy of that book,
a long time ago,
and have forgotten everything in it if i ever read it at all.

As for genestealer cults, they are a faction that cries out to be created by conversions, not as a full army, of course that is not how GW operates any more.
agree completely.
just allow it on the table, as it represents part of the universe.
the toruble in my mind is that
people seem unable to make judgments of fairness and consistency.
"spamming" wave serpents makes for a boring collection.
abusing broken shield rules to turn a transport into a main battle tank is being an idiot.
the role play and simulation integration that originally was the draw to 40k,
especially,
seems to be lost on people these days.
everyone is basically playing a 3d collectible card game.
this was unheard of in the 80s and 90s, really.
then, magic was basically for kids...
now those kids went to college and bought 40k models.
i would be a neckbeard if i stopped shaving.

The main factions I would like to see go is the huge plethora of redundant space marine armies. To my mind they should almost all be condensed into a single book with plenty of options, rather than so many distinct armies for which the basis is the same.
this is absolutely correct.

i would like to see a return to
paying for what you put on the table.
for example
to have a psychic power you simply had to PAY for the power,
on the model of a wizardry discipline.
i modeled characters to represent the power attached to that character.
that model always played that way, cost that much...
less random super power dice pool sub-game ridiculousness.
on this model, the game is more easily "balanced"
grav weapons should cost more, discouraging their overuse.
likewise, army composition can be moderated by similar guidelines.
consider the following:
gw can run an ongoing narrative and resource report on the Internet through their homepage,
which reads like a newspaper and plays a bit like a newscast (think click this link form the starship troopers movie here).
on this site are resource reports due to battles around the world
(uploaded to gw through army list upload in a standard format via worldwide android app or Inet entry).
simple stat analysis of list and result data should deliver simple corrective coefficient that moderates points values that must be paid for that period (quarterly, maybe?)
so, spamming wave serpents results in them bring overused, on all fronts of conflict involving Eldar everywhere,
so Eldar everywhere must use more resources to keep the wave serpents flying,
more manufacturing and repair personnel, and so on...
which means increase points cost.
this adds a bit of economics to the game system,
makes it "live" and still allows gw control over which models and backstock get sold, to who and when... they seem to like that.

anyways, when gw management finally gets around to sending me an email,
i will be happy to work this out with/for them.
regardless, in my mind, this or something like it is going to happen.
i bet that people will love such a platform.
and it can fix the game after a-hat mbas wrecked it...
 

·
Angryman
Joined
·
4,304 Posts
The necrons had a very vague history, they had never spoken to anyone and their intentions(apart from killing everything) were inscrutable, not anymore. I liked that they were an implacable army of unknown origin or intentions. If you want to understand my take on necrons, read one of the Caiphas Cain novels by sandy Mitchell. Sorry I cannot remember which one. When Cain comes up against necrons it is Bowel Loosening Terror for the win.

As for the orks, it is a while ago for me, but I certainly remember they weren't a fungus. New orks budded off the old orks, or were born some way, but orks sprouting up out of the ground from spores was certainly not it. As for their tech, it is simple when it needs to be, complex when it needs to be, but always functional and always cool. They might talk and act in a amusing way, but not when they are trying to hack your arm off with a power claw, just ask Yarrick about that one.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
455 Posts
I see numerous people complaining about the Ork fungus thing. That has been cannon for as long as I have known 40k. How long have I known 40k? Well, since my brother got the 2nd Edition for Christmas and I spent a lot of time reading all the rule/fluff books.
So basically, you've all hated Ork fluff for the past 20 years.
 
61 - 80 of 85 Posts
Top