Which army do you believe needs the most stratigizing to play?
1 - 20 of 65 Posts
Joined
·
784 Posts
I would have to say Tau are pretty tough to use because they're only good at shooting. Trying to keep the enemy chasing you around can be difficult because you eventually run out of places to hide. I know they have Kroot to help out they are more of a meat shield then an elite assault force IMO.
A close second I feel would be Eldar because their units are so specialized. However once you get the tactics down with them they are very difficult to deal with.
A close second I feel would be Eldar because their units are so specialized. However once you get the tactics down with them they are very difficult to deal with.
Joined
·
325 Posts
Ok bl0203 dont take this the wrong way but I am going to start laughing at you now :laugh:
You just chose the 2 most competative 40k armies in the game at the moment. Frankly mech Eldar & Tau have very well established tactics already in place & very little creative thought is needed to do well with them only when you start facing really good players will the tactics need to be varied/adapted (& then rarely).
The two armies that need the most thought, luck & skill to use are without a shadow of a doubt Witch Hunters & Demon Hunters. Both lists have large weaknesses most notably their lack of decent long ranged firepower, inability to close down a more mobile enemy, high unit cost & low survivability. Which frankly on the 40K battlefield is the Anti-holy-trinity* of 40k.
*Maneauverability, Firepower & Resilience - the HT of 40K
k:
You just chose the 2 most competative 40k armies in the game at the moment. Frankly mech Eldar & Tau have very well established tactics already in place & very little creative thought is needed to do well with them only when you start facing really good players will the tactics need to be varied/adapted (& then rarely).
The two armies that need the most thought, luck & skill to use are without a shadow of a doubt Witch Hunters & Demon Hunters. Both lists have large weaknesses most notably their lack of decent long ranged firepower, inability to close down a more mobile enemy, high unit cost & low survivability. Which frankly on the 40K battlefield is the Anti-holy-trinity* of 40k.
*Maneauverability, Firepower & Resilience - the HT of 40K
k:I'd say DA and Sisters have a hard time.
First off every army is tailored to screw over 3+ save armies that are far more powerful (Trait Marines, Old Chaos), so do even better against these.
Second your tactics must be different depending on opponent.
For Tau, the tactics are the same regardless of opponent- you try to stay out of combat (very easy with JSJ and mobility) and shoot the high priority targets first, working down the list. Very straightforward. Once you've worked out a competitive list (clue, min FW's), your playstyle is the same every game.
For Eldar, it's spoonfed- this is a unit of Fire Dragons, it kills tanks, send it at tanks. This is a unit of Harliequins, it kills Marines, send it at Marines, etc. Each unit is specialised to do certain things, so just position them to do those things. Never understood the Eldar player mentality that it is some superior act of skill that creates synergy- no it's having the hardest tank in the game and units that are Paint by Numbers.
Whereas a DA Tactical Squad needs to do everything, do you move forward to get into combat, do you sit right back and fire the heavy weapon, do you move into a position where you can fire all weapons? All depends on opponent, enemy units positions, etc. And though they can do each satisfactorily, they can't do as well as a specialist unit in it's given field.
Of course Grey Knights and IG are far harder. IG for example are a static, weedy shooty army in a 4th Ed ruleset dominated by Near-Fearless MEq's, Highly Mobile objective grabbing armies, etc.
First off every army is tailored to screw over 3+ save armies that are far more powerful (Trait Marines, Old Chaos), so do even better against these.
Second your tactics must be different depending on opponent.
For Tau, the tactics are the same regardless of opponent- you try to stay out of combat (very easy with JSJ and mobility) and shoot the high priority targets first, working down the list. Very straightforward. Once you've worked out a competitive list (clue, min FW's), your playstyle is the same every game.
For Eldar, it's spoonfed- this is a unit of Fire Dragons, it kills tanks, send it at tanks. This is a unit of Harliequins, it kills Marines, send it at Marines, etc. Each unit is specialised to do certain things, so just position them to do those things. Never understood the Eldar player mentality that it is some superior act of skill that creates synergy- no it's having the hardest tank in the game and units that are Paint by Numbers.
Whereas a DA Tactical Squad needs to do everything, do you move forward to get into combat, do you sit right back and fire the heavy weapon, do you move into a position where you can fire all weapons? All depends on opponent, enemy units positions, etc. And though they can do each satisfactorily, they can't do as well as a specialist unit in it's given field.
Of course Grey Knights and IG are far harder. IG for example are a static, weedy shooty army in a 4th Ed ruleset dominated by Near-Fearless MEq's, Highly Mobile objective grabbing armies, etc.
Joined
·
784 Posts
Dakari-Mane; while I agree there very established armies, I feel there difficult to play when your new to the game. It takes time and practice to fine tune there army lists and tactics IMO. Maybe being a veteran gamer you find it easy to play these armies. However I'm quite new and have a difficult time using these armies.
Joined
·
178 Posts
I would have to say that the Inquisition armies without added IG elements are perhaps the hardest army to play.
IMO most Space Marine armies are clockwork, just wind them up and let them go. They are a very forgiving army.
Once you realize what you're doing, Eldar and Tau are almost scripted armies.
Dark Eldar, well, I have no experience with them whatsoever.
Necrons I would say are even more forgiving than Space Marines.
Orks, definately the most fun to play.
Tyranids, ummmmm, charge?
IG, well, there is just so much involved in an IG Army that it can be overwhelming at first. Though, with my balanced list I have about a .50 rating. I could always cheese it out and add way more Lascannons and Plasma Guns but I play to have fun and not hear my friends talk about how much they hate Plasma. However, the Battle Tanks are pretty much point and click, very forgiving.
The absolute hardest armies to play though, Deathworld Veterans and Kroot Mercenaries.
IMO most Space Marine armies are clockwork, just wind them up and let them go. They are a very forgiving army.
Once you realize what you're doing, Eldar and Tau are almost scripted armies.
Dark Eldar, well, I have no experience with them whatsoever.
Necrons I would say are even more forgiving than Space Marines.
Orks, definately the most fun to play.
Tyranids, ummmmm, charge?
IG, well, there is just so much involved in an IG Army that it can be overwhelming at first. Though, with my balanced list I have about a .50 rating. I could always cheese it out and add way more Lascannons and Plasma Guns but I play to have fun and not hear my friends talk about how much they hate Plasma. However, the Battle Tanks are pretty much point and click, very forgiving.
The absolute hardest armies to play though, Deathworld Veterans and Kroot Mercenaries.
When it comes to the level of skill necessary to compete against moderately skilled gamers, the Inquisition takes the cake. The army has been designed more as a 'hobbyist's' army rather than a 'gamer's' army. The background surpasses any to be found in the 40K universe, and the models themselves are many of the best sculpts GW has released to date. The in-game playability of the army is something else entirely. These Ordos rely on the use of other armies to gain any sort of competitive status. Without the use of IG or Space Marines, the Witch/Daemonhunters simply do not have the resiliency or firepower to stand up to the most common tourney armies.
Each other army listed has at least one fairly simple setup that makes completive play easy for even the most novice player.
Each other army listed has at least one fairly simple setup that makes completive play easy for even the most novice player.
Joined
·
129 Posts
I'd say that the army that requires the most strategizing is Tau. NOT Mech Tau, but doing something entirely different and making it work. When you have to try to work out movement and fire synergy in an army that has only two skimmers and lots of Fire Warriors (No Devilfish), it's actually rather difficult. And all the more rewarding when you do end up winning or at least tying your opponents.
A close second would be IG, I think. With an army that ponderous to move, you have to plan two turns ahead just to figure out wether a unit should move or shoot.
And then third would go to Inquisition I think. So much cool stuff, they cost way too damn much and as such are kind of handicapped. Kudos to anybody who can make a Sisters army work well.
Most of the other armies seem to me to either have every unit laid out perfectly for how to use them, or has only one real tactic, that being move into assault ASAP. Not much tactical skill required for that one.
A close second would be IG, I think. With an army that ponderous to move, you have to plan two turns ahead just to figure out wether a unit should move or shoot.
And then third would go to Inquisition I think. So much cool stuff, they cost way too damn much and as such are kind of handicapped. Kudos to anybody who can make a Sisters army work well.
Most of the other armies seem to me to either have every unit laid out perfectly for how to use them, or has only one real tactic, that being move into assault ASAP. Not much tactical skill required for that one.
Joined
·
136 Posts
I put up Necron only cause it can be really difficult when the game isn't 2000 points, and if you're playing a skilled opponent you can only hope they werent expecting Necrons
And they were voted for only cause the Kroot Mercenaries werent up there, I think the Kroot are certainly more fun but to use them effectively would be difficult
And they were voted for only cause the Kroot Mercenaries werent up there, I think the Kroot are certainly more fun but to use them effectively would be difficult
Joined
·
84 Posts
Dark Eldar, plain and simple.
First, name one other army that doesn't have access to anything over AV 11 ('Nids don't count, they never have an av)
Second, the only unit in the army list that can have a 3+ save is a bodyguard.
Third, they are the most unforgiving army ever. After one mistake, barring extreme luck or opponent stupidity, the best you can hope for is a draw.
First, name one other army that doesn't have access to anything over AV 11 ('Nids don't count, they never have an av)
Second, the only unit in the army list that can have a 3+ save is a bodyguard.
Third, they are the most unforgiving army ever. After one mistake, barring extreme luck or opponent stupidity, the best you can hope for is a draw.
Joined
·
368 Posts
I'll say inquisition, it took me a while to pin down how exactly to use them. I've played with eldar, tau, CSM, SM and IG and it still didnt prepare me for using the sororitas effectivly. Trying to keep them alive is very difficult. With the guard you know they are gonna die and they cost nothing and the tanks are a punch right in the kisser. SM and CSM are very tactically forgiving, mistakes dont cost you very much and they are both pretty good at assault and defence. Tau are a one trick pony. Eldar are quite tricky but if you've got good elites and a strong core of either mechs or troops they can bail you out. Never played the orks, never even seen an ork army on the table so i cant say, but they dont strike me as the sort that think much about tactics.
Getting the formula for an inquistion army right is hard (if you dont spam exorcists/armour that is) and using it properly is something only lots of experience can give you. Especially with faith points.
I would have said dark eldar but its not exactly the fault of the tactician that they are a hard army to use, its merely a byproduct of their outdated rules. Its like using WW2 weapons against the armies of today.
Getting the formula for an inquistion army right is hard (if you dont spam exorcists/armour that is) and using it properly is something only lots of experience can give you. Especially with faith points.
I would have said dark eldar but its not exactly the fault of the tactician that they are a hard army to use, its merely a byproduct of their outdated rules. Its like using WW2 weapons against the armies of today.
To be honest Tau, because if you get to close, your kinda screwed, you go to far out youre screwed. Wanna get a easier hit? Markerlight, they do take a little while to make a decent army worthwhile
Joined
·
11 Posts
Doesn't playing include choosing the army tho? I haven't played more than a handful of races (marines with a limit, necrons, and nids) but some of the lists are easy to screw up if you don't know what to take. It's easy to go overboard on commanders and such. I'm not totally sure about it, but thats my two cents.
I must agree with the inquisition as the cost alot of points for not very many men, and if you fielded persay Grey Knights in a guard they would soak up alot of fire because IG don't have much else that the opposing player needs to worry about except for maybe some tanks.
Joined
·
126 Posts
The title caught my eye, stratigizing? (Is that really a word?:shok
I would say the Inquisition are probably the hardest to build an effective list and play with it against a variety of foes. They do have a bag of tricks but most of the units have limited options regarding what they can achieve.
Guard come a close second as their poor quality of troops mean it can often fall apart after a few bad dice rolls. That said they can make some evil lists and will use much the same tactics whatever their opponent. (Stand back and shoot.)
Tau and eldar have a limited range of list setups that are seen to work. These (best build) lists are very effective and quite easy to use. Other (often more interesting) lists can be more difficult and less versatile but that doesn't make the race harder to use, just that way of fielding it. Dark eldar are in a similar boat. Finding a list you both like and is effective can take a long time but once you do the army can almost run itself. It will play roughly the same way irrespective of the enemy.
Marines and chaos space marines are both very forgiving. Easy to pick up and use, although you'll often have to change your tactics to fight some opponents. Necrons are the same but even more so.
Orks would have been a contender for the top spot but since their codex is just about to be updated it's a bit difficult to include them.
Had they been on the list Kroot mercenaries would have definately been top of my list as most difficult army to use. They are lovely army to see but very difficult to use and I've yet to see anyone build an effectively competitive list.
I would say the Inquisition are probably the hardest to build an effective list and play with it against a variety of foes. They do have a bag of tricks but most of the units have limited options regarding what they can achieve.
Guard come a close second as their poor quality of troops mean it can often fall apart after a few bad dice rolls. That said they can make some evil lists and will use much the same tactics whatever their opponent. (Stand back and shoot.)
Tau and eldar have a limited range of list setups that are seen to work. These (best build) lists are very effective and quite easy to use. Other (often more interesting) lists can be more difficult and less versatile but that doesn't make the race harder to use, just that way of fielding it. Dark eldar are in a similar boat. Finding a list you both like and is effective can take a long time but once you do the army can almost run itself. It will play roughly the same way irrespective of the enemy.
Marines and chaos space marines are both very forgiving. Easy to pick up and use, although you'll often have to change your tactics to fight some opponents. Necrons are the same but even more so.
Orks would have been a contender for the top spot but since their codex is just about to be updated it's a bit difficult to include them.
Had they been on the list Kroot mercenaries would have definately been top of my list as most difficult army to use. They are lovely army to see but very difficult to use and I've yet to see anyone build an effectively competitive list.
I really hate to be someone that picks his own army "just because," but there's more to Tyranids that making blind, wreckless charges. That kind of thing gets your army wiped out before it can cross the table. In my experience, novice players rarely do well with Tyranids. They'd rather just sit back and shoot.
I can't honestly say that Tyranids are the most difficult army to play, though. Actually, I think Orks and Eldar are both a brain drain (though I've never played Eldar, I know a guy that collects them and he furrows his brow a lot when he plays - that must be the pure challenge rising to the surface!).
I can't honestly say that Tyranids are the most difficult army to play, though. Actually, I think Orks and Eldar are both a brain drain (though I've never played Eldar, I know a guy that collects them and he furrows his brow a lot when he plays - that must be the pure challenge rising to the surface!).
I've heard much the same argument for Marines, Flam.
"They're easy, just jog up the board..."
Such things get you killed real easy.
Plus the whole "Marines are forgiving", what? Every competitive list is designed with MEq killing ratio's in mind. When someone chooses a unit they don't think "How many Guard will this kill?"
If you don't use cover, if you don't keep the army together for support- most other armies will chew it apart.
You turn up to the table and your opponent will often have an in-depth knowledge of how your army works as it's so common.
Now try this with DA, Marines with the balls removed. This assuming Special Crutches aren't taken.
"They're easy, just jog up the board..."
Such things get you killed real easy.
Plus the whole "Marines are forgiving", what? Every competitive list is designed with MEq killing ratio's in mind. When someone chooses a unit they don't think "How many Guard will this kill?"
If you don't use cover, if you don't keep the army together for support- most other armies will chew it apart.
You turn up to the table and your opponent will often have an in-depth knowledge of how your army works as it's so common.
Now try this with DA, Marines with the balls removed. This assuming Special Crutches aren't taken.
Joined
·
8,130 Posts
Ahh but this is precisely because Marines are forgiving, especially to new players, and tend to be taken for this reason which leads to a higher ratio of Marine lists. Which again leads to lists tailored to take down marines. You don't see players gearing to kill Guard in specific simply because the number of Guard armies is substantially lower than Marines and Marines being what they are are simply a harder army to deal with. Make a bad mistake with Guard and you are screwed but make that same mistake with Marines and you are still going to be able to recover due to the nature and stats of the army.
I play Tau and Chaos Marines and I have found this to be absolutely true. I lost a game the other day because of a mistake I made with my Tau that I could not recover from, simply due to the way they play but I made a similar mistake with my Thousand Sons the week before (yeah I know, I should have learned lol :grin
and I was still able to turn it around for a close fought win. Marines are much more forgiving than any other army out there and the fact that other lists are designed to take them on does not change that.1 - 20 of 65 Posts
