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Discussion Starter #1
Got done re-reading LotN (Still a great book imo) and was wondering as to where exactly is the First Captain, Zso Sahaal in the HH events? Surely he must be leading his raptors/NL elements somewhere in the First Company, correct?
 

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Presumably he's leading the Raptors in background. He's not First Captain until latter in the Heresy (post Siege I believe) though. He's not like to make an appearance either as ADB is 'in charge' of Night Lord fluff and doesn't seem to like Sahaal much.
 

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Deathwing Commissar
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I'm not sure that ADB dislikes the character so much as he dislikes "absolutes". Just as he doesn't seem to like the idea that "Primarch X always beats Primarch Y" or "this Legion is the best" or what have you, he probably wasn't all that jazzed about this one character possessing the one relic that their Primarch cared about and thus being the understood heir (or whatever) to the throne.

And even then, I think he was less concerned about the character and his themes... and more intent on rectifying the knee-jerk reaction so many 40k super-fans had about him. It's really no different* from him correcting folks from saying, "Oh, yeah, Curze had the Lion dead to rights" or "No, based on the second fight, the Lion is obviously the better fighter of the two".

* This is obviously just my opinion. I'm neither the confidante nor the psychologist of the man! :)
 

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I'm not sure that ADB dislikes the character so much as he dislikes "absolutes". Just as he doesn't seem to like the idea that "Primarch X always beats Primarch Y" or "this Legion is the best" or what have you, he probably wasn't all that jazzed about this one character possessing the one relic that their Primarch cared about and thus being the understood heir (or whatever) to the throne.
I didn't mean to suggest that he doesn't like Sahaal as a 'person', just that he didn't seem to like him in general.

As far as absolutes goes, I really hope that's not the reason because it doesn't really make sense. Sahaal isn't presented in universe as being the heir, the novel even leaves it open as to whether or not he's even correct. Its even suggested that Sahaal was meant to be abandoned and forgotten. All in all not a very absolute character.

And even then, I think he was less concerned about the character and his themes... and more intent on rectifying the knee-jerk reaction so many 40k super-fans had about him.
What reaction do you think that was?

And wouldn't a better way to address that be introducing new things about the character instead of basically just pretending he doesn't exist?
 

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That's what I was trying to say: that a lot of fans ignored what Spurrier tried to convey and instead settled on the idea that Sahaal was, essentially, the "right" sort of Night Lord. ADB, in my humble opinion, inserted his reference in his series to kind of remind people that, no, that wasn't the case.
 

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Bane of Empires
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It's unlikely that we'll see Sahaal in the series, ADB has gone on record as saying he doesn't emerge as First Captain until after Sevatar's death (which presumably happens either towards the end of the rebellion, during the siege, or shortly after). But, obviously, he would have been present during the events of the Heresy.

Unfortunately the series does seem to focus too heavily on certain characters, and as a result I'm glad Sahaal won't feature heavily in the series. ADB has always championed using (and inventing) different and various protagonists and characters, which can only be applauded.
 

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Rattlehead
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he probably wasn't all that jazzed about this one character possessing the one relic that their Primarch cared about and thus being the understood heir (or whatever) to the throne.
I'd be inclined to agree with this; in Blood Reaver (or maybe Void Stalker), someone says that Sahaal, while he had the Corona, didn't have any stronger claim than anyone else to the leadership of the Night Lords. ADB has downplayed the importance of the Corona and Sahaal quite significantly in the Night Lords trilogy, even going so far as including the bit about the Atramentar splitting up and attaching themselves to their best mates' companies and refusing to follow Sahaal, purely because he wasn't Sevatar.
 

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Presumably he's leading the Raptors in background. He's not First Captain until latter in the Heresy (post Siege I believe) though. He's not like to make an appearance either as ADB is 'in charge' of Night Lord fluff and doesn't seem to like Sahaal much.
ADB's mentioned that he mailed Spurrier and asked if he could use Sahaal. Spurrier never replied.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
ADB's mentioned that he mailed Spurrier and asked if he could use Sahaal. Spurrier never replied.
lol, what if he just happened to miss the e-mail? Now now, lets say I messaged him tomorrow and got a whole different reaction from the Spurrier in 2014 than the one back then, what levels of awkwardness would that entail?
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I think the key thing is that ADB gave his own Night Lords the same treatement; In Soul Hunter we (or at least I) get a glimpse of Talos; the last noble thinker in a legion of scum. Cyrion, a cheery (for a Night Lord) warrior who is likeable because he is the comedian of the group. Xarl, the cold measured Psychopath, who is loyal to the bone with zero illusions of grandeur. Mercutian, the quiet new guy, and Uzas... the nutcase, the monster, the fool. Yet by the end of Void Stalker, we realise that virtually no one shared Talos's beliefs, he does some pretty monstrous things by this point too, shattering some of that "nobility" I thought he had. Cyrion was a depraved coward, the worst of all of them, Xarl was right to hate him all along. Uzas, just as loyal to Talos as anyone, but hopelessly lost, isolated and hated by his only brothers, I bloody loved Uzas. Only Mercutian and Xarl proved to be the men they said they were. Xarl was the one with the most realistic view of the legion by the end.

I think also, whereas Ahriman or Typhus are woven into the fabric of 40k, Sahaal was an esoteric bit of lore from an old novel. It must be so confining, writing 30k, knowing that you have to include characters and trying to think of reasons to keep them around. With Sevatar, ADB has a character he can kill off at anytime, perform acts of heroism or infamy, or be as vague as he likes about his ultimate fate. With Sahaal anything ADB could have done would have been "wrong" to someone. It's hard to write a character that has to end up vilified by his legion but also remain in the most respected position right through until 40k. If it weren't for his inclusion in 40k I think Kor Phaeron should have been killed off by now, as the only way to keep him around at the moment was a the bumbling villian who reveals his plan and his thwarted at the last second, over and over.

The great thing will the NL trilogy was that anyone could die and we weren't tied to these Codex Special characters who have plot armour that can't ever be beaten. Leaving Sahaal's fate a mystery stayed true to Lord of Night whilst allowing for a very different interpretation of the Night Lords.

I hope Sahaal gets a mention at some point in HH but i think ADBs comments were more directed at his own trilogy. There is nothing to stop another author using Sahaal as an antagonist somwhere along the lines.
 

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I think also, whereas Ahriman or Typhus are woven into the fabric of 40k, Sahaal was an esoteric bit of lore from an old novel.
Sahaal began life in much the same way these other characters did, someone wrote him in a story. The difference is that his story was a novel, not part of a codex. However, calling the only novel about the Night Lords an "esoteric bit of lore" is a bit of a stretch.

It must be so confining, writing 30k, knowing that you have to include characters and trying to think of reasons to keep them around. With Sevatar, ADB has a character he can kill off at anytime, perform acts of heroism or infamy, or be as vague as he likes about his ultimate fate. With Sahaal anything ADB could have done would have been "wrong" to someone. It's hard to write a character that has to end up vilified by his legion but also remain in the most respected position right through until 40k.
1) Actually, the mere existence of Sahaal forces Sevatar to die. Sevatar is First Captain at the start of the Heresy but Sahaal has taken his place by the end.
2) Some people might well have been upset by any portrayal of Sahaal however some people are upset about his absence. Kind of a lose-lose.
3) Sahaal isn't necessarily vilified or respected by his Legion in Lord of the Night, or even in Soul Hunter. He is vilified by Krieg and Talos but neither of their opinions is necessarily reflective of the Legion. Sahaal's relationship with his Legion is actually left pretty vague and could easily have been explored.
4) ADB used Kharn as a POV character. If he was afraid of using 'established' characters in his stories I doubt he would've done so. Further it shows that using 'other peoples' characters can be just as effective as creating your own.
 

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After reading through all these posts it's great to know some more information that the book doesn't provide but what I want to know is when does SaHall meet up with M'Shen, the Assassin who fucks him over royally and starts his lovely persuit into Chaos??

Anyone know?
 

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After reading through all these posts it's great to know some more information that the book doesn't provide but what I want to know is when does SaHall meet up with M'Shen, the Assassin who fucks him over royally and starts his lovely persuit into Chaos??

Anyone know?
Never. Talos kills M'Shen shortly after she kills Night Haunter and whilst Sahaal is otherwise occupied.

Also, Sahaal doesn't pursue Chaos. He briefly utilizes it before rejecting it completely.
 
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