[Khorne's Fist]

The problem here is that there are three possible endings to 40k: Chaos wins, Tyranids consume the galaxy, Necrons seal the warp and win. Fantasy really only had one outcome, chaos winning; the warhammer world had an open wound to the realm of chaos in the northern pole (with no way to close it.) And it was only a matter of time before the inhabitants of the warhammer world lost enough ground to chaos, the events of the End Times simply hastened that outcome.

It's just a matter of scale. For North Pole warp portal see Eye of Terror. If there was a huge assault from and expansion of the Eye, it would mean a series of unlikely alliances between all the humanoid races to try and combat it. Sure, the Nids would still be chomping their way towards Terra, but if the 13th black crusade was only a precursor to something much, much bigger, like a demon primarch(s) led incursion, they could be temporarily ignored. It would be very easy to scale the whole thing up to a suitable level.

 

[Fallen]

Have I stopped caring about 40k's fluff?

No, I have never really be into the micro details of 40k though; and some things I would rather not know - for example what ran through Horus' mind when he killed Sanguinius/died/etc.

Do I care about Marine "Loken" from the heresy, not so much - I care more about the back story of the creation of the Grey Knights, Why the Astral Claws stopped sending their Imperial Tithe...

I would like background info on as much stuff that we have where we only have "participated in the Campaign Olympus against the agents of chaos in Segmentum Solar" or wherever - Give me the info on the campaign - why was it fought, what started it, what forces were involved, etc, etc.

 

[Doom wolf]

I had a brief break when the Tau came out of some shiny "goodie-goodie" Mary Sue.

I like their look, but didn't liked their fluff.

Necrons were a little better tough.

And I liked the Deathwing Native American root. That was exotic, but still dark. When that was dropped, I was quite disappointed.

Heard a lot of bad thing about the work of Matt Ward, that keeped me away from the fluff for a time, nut I took the wagon back when I readed the 6th editions. This isn't all perfect now, but nothing is ever perfect anyway.

 

[Doelago]

I have not as such stopped caring, but I have definitely started caring less than before. This is not to do anything with me being tired or bored with the setting, it is more with the quality (or rather, the lack of) in recent releases, especially from Black Library. All the shitty product placement stories and novellas are really burning out my interest and it takes real effort to get into any of these books.
Still, I very much enjoy the setting and the lore when I find something good to read, such as The Gothic War by Gordon Rennie. But I find it rather depressing that I look forward to re-prints more than I do towards most of the new publications.

 

[Serpion5]

With the emphasis less on fluff in the new books and the Heresy getting its ass dragged through every bit of dirt, I just think there's less to discuss.

I still consider 40k one of the best sci fi settings out there, even with the changes I've seen.


But aside from that, attitudes like a few of the ones in this thread (dislike of change, blaming Ward etc) have made discussing potentially interesting points a lot less appealing.

 

[ntaw]

attitudes like a few of the ones in this thread (dislike of change, blaming Ward etc) have made discussing potentially interesting points a lot less appealing

Preach it. I read a lot if not all of the fluff threads but rarely post because it's not worth getting involved in the either ongoing or brewing shit-storm of nerd rage. Sometimes I just read them to witness the gong show, not even interested in what's actually being said about the fluff.

 

[SoL Berzerker]

I wouldn't say I don't care, but I also wouldn't say I'm interested right now. If they were to start some huge new plot line where the Primarchs come back and huge changes happen, I would get very into it again. As of right now, I'm reading stories much more for their battle scenes and artistic inspiration than for the actual story.

I love the universe, but the current plot has simply become too stagnant.

 

[Serpion5]

Rather than immediately latch onto the negatives of the fluff, why don't you at least try to interpret it in a way that is satisfactory to you?

I know a lot of people preferred the necrons as soulless killing automatons, but the fluff provided still allows for a necron force to be exactly that. Tomb worlds can malfunction, necron memory banks have been erased rendering entire necron dynasties as little more than vessels for a single all controlling AI. The old necrons you supposedly preferred are still there, only now there are other necrons with more variety for those who prefer that instead.

Ditto the c'tan, sure a lot of them are under necron control now, but the fluff also still allows for rogue star god shards to wreak havoc across the setting, and it is also made quite apparent that they are no less destructive for their supposed defeat. So what if the Emperor only beat a mere shard of the Dragon? Even a shard of a c'tan holds world ending power, so that deed is not diminished in the slightest. Same can be said for Uriel's battle with the Nightbringer, now assumed to be a shard, it still escaped and is now free to cause who knows what kind of harm elsewhere.


Don't like the Blood Angels and necrons team up? The short story Word of the Silent King fixes that anyway, by making it apparent that there was never more than an uneasy truce at best, and both sides fully intended to screw the other over at the earliest convenience.

Don't like Draigo? Well I can't help you here. I think Draigo's fluff is fine. In fact of all the denizens of the Imperium of Man, I find his story to be the most hilariously tragic. Possibly the greatest hero mankind has to offer reduced to a mere plaything of the warp gods, doomed to show pointless defiance to his captors until he finally breaks and gives up.

It's not that hard to see the bright side to any of these, or the dark side if you prefer to think of it that way.

 

[mayegelt]

I kinda care about 40K fluff. I would say that the Tau stuff was interesting as an idea, but in the end they seemed to be a way in game terms to reintroduce Squats, without having space Dwarves (AKA the plasma techy race).
Necrons are an odd one. Once again it was a "We need to add a new thing to sell" moment, and the original release on a White Dwarf with a ballista pack attached was a first time they had ever done that. Though the rules for the model were insane. He had marine style armour and stats and every time he died he got back up with "I'll be back" on a 2+ unmodifiable, to top that he cost the same as a marine I think. The later releases of Necrons toned them down a lot, what left people upset that there nigh invulnerable warriors were now not as tough as before. But they did get a load of bonus units and stuff to add to their ranks rather than just Immortals, Warriors, Destroyers and Lord.

Retconned history is always an annoyance, but more so in my opinion is with Forge Worlds HH game when coming in to 40K. This shows that each legion / chapter has its own specialist units that are armoured in a different way and have different abilities and skills compared to others. Of course the SM codex has chapter traits as a partial thing like that and very old Chaos Codex 4th edition had each chapter having this own skill, but were did the:
Emps Children Phalanx Termys go and Palatine Blades (with some disorder having had the legion split up might have taken a bit of a toll, but you would still expect some people to be judged at the elites)
Death Guard Grave Warden and Deathshroud (technically also Deathshroud are all dead, but surely the idea of having Termys with Power Scythes lives on).
Iron Hand Gorgons and Immortals...
Of course things like Emps Children Kakophoni became Noise Marines and Word Eater Rampagers and Butchers became Berserkers. But it seems like so many other things have been lost for what appears to be little to no reason.
Personally I would LOVE to see FW bring out 40K rules for some of these units that even if not identical to the 30K versions, but at least similar enough to the original to keep the spirit of them. I wouldn't mind even having to pay a premium cost for some of these units. Of course for competitive play that would make them unusable, but since when have units like Mutilators or Warp Talons been worth taking.

It also annoys me as some of those above with things like the Black Crusade that clearly killed off several characters, only to have them reappear in the next book like nothing happened. If you are progressing the story, you shouldn't just say "Well that didn't happen yet in this edition." Surely with all the new units and vehicles that have been created, then the battle that people like Eldrad died in might not have happened because now he has a bunch of Wraithknights and stuff backing him up. This could have meant the games that were played and reported via the website to influence the results would not have played out as they did. At least in the Blood Angels book that came after some fight with some Orks I am sure I remember that they did put something in their to say "Tycho is dead, but you can still use him in historic battles."

 

[ntaw]

why don't you at least try to interpret it in a way that is satisfactory to you?

Nerd-rage takes over for imagination. Forget that this is a sci-fi setting and pretty much anything goes 'because this person invented/did this and now it works'.

At least in the Blood Angels book that came after some fight with some Orks I am sure I remember that they did put something in their to say "Tycho is dead, but you can still use him in historic battles."

Not in the current book. There's a paragraph or so of fluff describing each version, none of which states anything about using the model in historic battles. Just the normal version and the version of him before he died.

"Some fight with the Orks" :laugh: GW only did the largest store-wide campaign EVER for that battle, a little conflict called the Third War for Armageddon. I remember it going down and each country/continent that had GW stores in it controlled a portion of the map of Armageddon, and their wins/losses were entered into a database and the outcome was decided as such.

 

[mayegelt]

Not in the current book. There's a paragraph or so of fluff describing each version, none of which states anything about using the model in historic battles. Just the normal version and the version of him before he died.

"Some fight with the Orks" :laugh: GW only did the largest store-wide campaign EVER for that battle, a little conflict called the Third War for Armageddon. I remember it going down and each country/continent that had GW stores in it controlled a portion of the map of Armageddon, and their wins/losses were entered into a database and the outcome was decided as such.

I was at work, so going from memory as work computers tend to block various sites. I couldn't remember which one of the Armageddons it was. Either way dead version must then be for historic battles if there is a post death version of him (Death Company ret con) as well. Either way that was going back to 4th maybe 5th edition?
If you keep bringing people back from the grave it takes away emersion in the story. Mainly because the story would have to go something like
"NOOOOOOO You killed Sanguinius!!!! DAMN YOU HORUS YOU WILL PAY FOR THAT! But first just let me cast rez. Everything you do means nothing bitch LOLZ!"
Or
"Horus having mortally wounded the Emperor but in doing so had been broken by the psychic attack that the Lord of Mankind had unleashed on him, this had forced the Warmaster to flee to the Eye of Terror. Meanwhile on Terra, the agents of mankind seeing no other option hurried the body of the Emperor to the Golden Throne in hopes to recover from his wounds. Before sitting in on the Golden Throne a voice was heard from the entrance they had just come from, it spoke softly and said 'Why are we doing this?... If he dies we can just bring him back with full health and he might just loose a bit of XP like me.' And so it was the Emperor died that day but was reborn thanks to the Maguffin of wisdom and helpful Sanguinius who had been ressed only minutes before."
Such is the fate of MMOs that have NPC character death and everyone wonders why they don't just find the local healer char to rez them if the body is still there and everything will be all better.

 

[Kreuger]

Retconned history is always an annoyance, but more so in my opinion is with Forge Worlds HH game when coming in to 40K. This shows that each legion / chapter has its own specialist units that are armoured in a different way and have different abilities and skills compared to others. Of course the SM codex has chapter traits as a partial thing like that and very old Chaos Codex 4th edition had each chapter having this own skill, but were did the...

Retconning is definitely annoying and disruptive. Sharing new content only to have it change after the community has learned it.

As for the 40k/Horus Heresy comparison, I'm not sure this is a fair criticism. Not because the two settings have such dissonance but because they're effectively owned by separate entities. And those companies have different purposes; GW is the main brand and Forge World is the luxury line of the luxury line. That's kind of like buying a Toyota and then sending an angry letter that your Toyota doesn't have the amenities of a Lexus. 40K just wasn't built with the amenities of Forge World.

As a fan I would love to see more of the heresy content trickle into 40K, but I suspect it's hard with to manage 1 stable of content without bolting on another.

The other difference to consider is that story wise 40K is essentially running in place on a treadmill and needs to be a sort of one-size-fits-all setting. The Heresy setting by contrast is very specific; it's telling the exact story of named battles, with named characters, in known places, and using 'historical' forces. Under these specific controls it's much easier to create theme, and mood if not balance. (I just don't know how balanced it really is.)

 

[ckcrawford]

Fine, I'll blame them too. But the common denominator is Ward. Every single codex of his that I read was dog shit. So yeah, I am going to blame him. You put your name on it, you take the responsibility if it's shit, I'm sorry but that's life, happens in all walks of life. You see military chiefs or CEO's resigning all the time because of a big fuck up. Was it entirely their fault? Highly doubtful, but the point still stands. People can defend Ward all they want, but it's no coincidence that his codexes were the worst and the most negative opinions. So yeah I'm sorry but fucking no as well, I will keep blaming him, if I knew the rest of the team, they could get blamed too, but as I said, you stamp your name on the front, you better be damn certain what your producing isn't the biggest load of shite that GW has ever produced.

As for the Black Crusade, as far as I remember the fluff outcome they gave wasn't accurate to the campaign. Due to the disproportional amount of Space Marine, Eldar and Guard players, the Forces of Order curbstomped the shit out of Chaos to the point where the Crusade would have been a complete failure. Yet GW changed the fluff to show Chaos making a strong foothold in the Cadian system, killing Eldrad and now controlling the Cadian Gate, making the future waves easy access to go. Eldrad isn't dead now, the Cadian Gate is still in the Imperiums hands and the 13th Black Crusade is at the beginnings but Abaddon's forces already sound immensely more powerful than before. The Space Wolves 13th Company have vanished in all traces since the campaign as well.

I don't particularly care about moving forwards, sure it would be nice. But I'd be fine with more background between the Heresy and now. The wars for Armageddon were amazing and I want more like it.

I have to agree. The banging of the drum has not ended, I think it goes to show how extreme the change has been. I have been very skeptical about buying the codexes these last few years, despite being that type of person who used to collect them. There was a time where Codexes really had good information and provided a better foundation for already established fluff. Instead of giving more support, I feel the new codex fluff has shaken it. That goes back to old threads though.

I still care about fluff, but I think people can kind of sense if its shit or not based on who's writing it. I think it makes fluff conversations a lot harder to have than they used to be. For example, with all the curved balls thrown to fluff within the last few years, I wouldn't be surprised if a new Heresy novel came out where it was Corax and the remaining Istvaan loyalists who stood their ground against the Traitor Legions and decimated them with bolts of lightning from their ass.

I'd open a thread one day about the breaching of the walls and what each traitor legion was... where each loyalist legion was... and then someone who just read the new Gav Thorpe Heresy Novel goes on the thread and goes... "Nope... your all wrong." According to Gav Thorpe, it was Corax who defeated Horus. The Emperor simply transferred his power. I'll tell you... what a thread killer that will be.


So to answer the question completely... Its kind of hard to say. There are some new pieces of fluff that a lot of us don't even talk about. I almost feel that the fluff has become WAY MORE pick this and chose that. Like I choose to believe some pieces of lore that are written didn't happen... but when those instances do become part of the discussion, I can't pretend they didn't happen. There's too much rubbish fluff which in my opinion is slowly killing the 40k world.

The interesting thing about that, is that I'm sure many think this is simply my opinion. Maybe so, however, when lore fundamentally shakes fluff that is already established and has played a important part to fluff for several years, than I think its a bit more, and perhaps a lot more than just my simple opinion. I have no problem accepting fluff I don't like, and the Heresy series is a perfect example. It was when the rubbish poured in, that I actually appreciated a lot of the novels, I'd used to say weren't my taste. They still aren't my taste, but they still provide a foundation for the series and the lore. Its different when fluff just isn't your style, you didn't like what happened, something about it is controversial, etc... but there comes a point where you read something and almost question if your really reading something from the 40k world, and go, what the hell was that rubbish.

 

[mayegelt]

The 30k -> 40k thing i said was more of an annoying thing that could have easily been worked out with the normal things that FW seem to have done with several different knight variants as well as tanks that work as both 30k & 40k stuff.
Like with the stompa, baneblade, lord of skulls and a few other things that have made there way from a FW book into a GW book (like apoc & escalation and now blood oath book) have FW stuff. Some of them have even changed to be plastic GW versions.
As you said, these items are "Premium" stuff, but doesn't prevent it being included in next edition of the codex if they wanna make them in GW cheep version or en just leave them as a premium product like a knight kinda is at £80 as a focal point and not a thing that is taken en mass, as they have with some mentioned above with 40k modified equivalents.

 

[ntaw]

If you keep bringing people back from the grave it takes away emersion in the story.

Pretty sure you can find me posting in at least a couple threads (pre-7th edition Codex drop) stating that Tycho was and is a waste of space in the Codex and should be moved to an Armageddon campaign supplement if not dropped entirely.

I'm all for advancing the story and moving 'known' things around. I definitely don't care enough about 40k that I'm gunna get ruffled by some retconned fluff and don't think anyone else should either. That just leads us right back to the nerd-rage shitstorm that we see on gaming forums, forcing so many people like me just stop caring about the conversation.

Three things to not bring up at a party: religion, politics, 40k fluff.

 

[Angel of Lies]

Originally I thought 40k fluff was base and unimaginative with words like melta, plasteel, and things of that nature. Seemed lazy.

That Iron Snakes novel, Brothers of the Snake or whatever, was what got me into 40k fluff. And 40k fluff has always irritated me but I like the overall feel of the galaxy.

Yes from a logical standpoint the Chaos Gods should win in the end but I've tried to think about 40k as if it were 30k and we didn't know anything that happened up until 40k. At that time the Emperor had restored Mankind to dominance, he had 20 demi-gods (while basically being a god himself) leading legions of super-humans on an all out slaughter of anything not-human.

They crushed every alien before them from ork to elder. Chaos corrupted cultures (while not overt as we know them in 40k) we just as easily crushed. If we played Warhammer 30k at the height of the Great Crusade (well before the Heresy) we'd probably think the Emperor was going to win, all things considered. I still hold out hope that if the plot is advanced something else will happen, where the victor isn't as clear as we think it might be.

Sadly from what I understand the plot isn't going to advance for 40k like in Fantasy. Which, given the rumors I've heard and if this "bubble theory" has any credence, I'm actually glad. Fantasy was always the weaker setting better for it to be experimented upon than 40k.

 

[fatmantis]

Pretty sure you can find me posting in at least a couple threads (pre-7th edition Codex drop) stating that Tycho was and is a waste of space in the Codex and should be moved to an Armageddon campaign supplement if not dropped entirely.

I'm all for advancing the story and moving 'known' things around. I definitely don't care enough about 40k that I'm gunna get ruffled by some retconned fluff and don't think anyone else should either. That just leads us right back to the nerd-rage shitstorm that we see on gaming forums, forcing so many people like me just stop caring about the conversation.

Three things to not bring up at a party: religion, politics, 40k fluff.

:goodpost: ihave to agree with this..the nerd-rage does my head in..play the game..enjoy the hobby..and have fun...

 

[CJay]

If you break any activity to its constituent parts it's going to look stupid.

I enjoy the WH40k universe. I read a lot about it. I think about it.

It's no worse than sports nerds that memorize player stats and who won which championship in X year. If you enjoy it, do it. If not, then not.

I was just using a snarky way to respond to your "knowledge is power" post, as if by knowing more about 40k makes you better than others.

Anyway, this got bigger than I thought. I should clarify, "No longer cared," I meant that as, when did you stop buying every novel/novella, posting on the forums like mad, wanting to find out every little detail. I'm not saying you now hate 40k, we can all agree we enjoy 40k, but as this post has proven, there is a point where you have made up your own mind, and you kind of turn to only what you want to see.

Also for the guy who said it was dumb to say, "only for senior members" If I had seen this post when I first got into 40k, I would have assumed everyone here was an old geezer, who was upset their 100,000 figurine deep army was no longer canon.

 

[darkreever]

when did you stop buying every novel/novella,

Personally, I have never tried to buy it all. Not gonna buy stuff I don't find or think I might find interesting just for the sake of completing a collection.

posting on the forums like mad,

Probably around the time I bought a house, got over a bad breakup, was asked to work 50-60 hours a week, and started improving my overall health. You know, when I decided my real life was more important than my hobby.

wanting to find out every little detail.

Still find myself doing this one.

Also for the guy who said it was dumb to say, "only for senior members" If I had seen this post when I first got into 40k, I would have assumed everyone here was an old geezer, who was upset their 100,000 figurine deep army was no longer canon.

1. Squats aside, I don't believe any army is no longer canon, so where does that comment come from?
2. I said it was dumb to only ask for thoughts from members with the senior member title because time on this forum does not guarantee better input towards your question.

 

[Deadeye776]

Rather than immediately latch onto the negatives of the fluff, why don't you at least try to interpret it in a way that is satisfactory to you?

That would be the equivalent to someone telling me "Instead of not liking Joel Schumacher's Batman and Robin, why don't you just look for the positives to this interpretation of Batman." I could use Episodes 1-3 of Star Wars or the last Indiana Jones movie with the alien skulls for examples as well. Sometimes shit is just shit and you can't sift through it without getting sick.

I know a lot of people preferred the necrons as soulless killing automatons, but the fluff provided still allows for a necron force to be exactly that. Tomb worlds can malfunction, necron memory banks have been erased rendering entire necron dynasties as little more than vessels for a single all controlling AI. The old necrons you supposedly preferred are still there, only now there are other necrons with more variety for those who prefer that instead.

Where the creatures of the Warp thrived on manipulation and dominance, the C'tan and Necrons offered oblivion and destruction. They served entities that fed on the souls of living creatures. The fluff for the Outsider, Void Dragon, Deciever, and the Nightbringer was badass. The original fluff made these things the antithesis to the Chaos Gods in the material universe. The option existed that, like the Chaos Gods, you could have different Necron factions dedicated to each of these gods and develop them like you have the Chaos Daemons. Instead, the Necrons are now working with Astartes and the C'tan are controlled and contained largely. What's the point of them now?

Dit to the c'tan, sure a lot of them are under necron control now, but the fluff also still allows for rogue star god shards to wreak havoc across the setting, and it is also made quite apparent that they are no less destructive for their supposed defeat. So what if the Emperor only beat a mere shard of the Dragon? Even a shard of a c'tan holds world ending power, so that deed is not diminished in the slightest. Same can be said for Uriel's battle with the Nightbringer, now assumed to be a shard, it still escaped and is now free to cause who knows what kind of harm elsewhere.

The Emperor defeating a star god who was barely at full power and the emperor defeating a fraction of a star god who was barely at full power means a lot. Same thing for Uriel. Imagine if instead of the Emperor defeating Horus, he defeated a shard of Horus and still got messed up as bad as he did. You'd start doubting his true power. Having to retcon the original fluff takes something away from where many readers imagination went. From the fluff with the Old Ones and the original War in Heaven to present, the Necrons now are like a more conservative version of the Tau.

Don't like the Blood Angels and necrons team up? The short story Word of the Silent King fixes that anyway, by making it apparent that there was never more than an uneasy truce at best, and both sides fully intended to screw the other over at the earliest convenience.

The Necrons like the Tyranids and Chaos originally were a force that wouldn't need to "team up" with anyone to achieve victory. Why would primordial killing machines fear Tyranids? They don't even have any biomass to consume!!!! Now that they are pretty much machines with feelings, they feared defeat and destruction and went into an alliance. You think warriors of Khorne would have allied themselves with the Blood Angels? I don't even think the Orks would have. Basically the Necrons now rate a level above the Eldar who also would have found a way to screw humanity to their benefit.

Don't like Draigo? Well I can't help you here. I think Draigo's fluff is fine. In fact of all the denizens of the Imperium of Man, I find his story to be the most hilariously tragic. Possibly the greatest hero mankind has to offer reduced to a mere plaything of the warp gods, doomed to show pointless defiance to his captors until he finally breaks and gives up.

While I agree that his warp triumphs are completely pointless I don't think that's what pisses most people off. We read in the Emperor's Gift the sacrifice and struggle for multiple Grey Knights to just banish a daemon primarch. Now you're telling me this guy defeats him one on one, maims and humiliates him? I'm a GK fan as much as anyone but that's bullshit. Tales of Primarchs wading through the way more powerful original Astartes are well known and now this random GK man handles a primarch? C'mon.

It's not that hard to see the bright side to any of these, or the dark side if you prefer to think of it that way.

The fact that you like this fluff is obvious. However, asking other to see the "light" side is a bit pretentious as it concludes it's something everyone should see as positive.