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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
What's the most advanced power armor the Adeptus Astartes can wear? MK4 ?
 

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Probably some sort of artificer mark VIII armor.

Though artificer armor is tricky enough that, theoretically, any mark could be the best.

If you're talking about non-artifcer armor, then the mark VIII will probably pull ahead.
 

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Mk IV is the most advanced. A lot of the tech used in making them has been lost since the Heresy.
Wait, what? Since when?

In Deliverance Lost the Imperial Fist Captain, Noriz, tells Raven Guard officer Branne about the Mark VI:

"Most of the improvements your Legion suggested were implemented,’ said Noriz, almost wistfully. ‘Protection is no better than the Mark IV, but the internal systems are far more efficient. The external cabling you see is supplemented by back-ups within the armour plate itself without compromising defence or adding excessive weight. Auto-senses have also been improved. In particular, auditory and olfactory pick-ups are much more sensitive. You will, no doubt, be pleased to hear that the stealth capabilities of this suit exceed that of any other variant.’

Could you provide a source where the Mark IV is more advanced?
 

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Mark IV armour was envisioned at the time to be the ultimate and final type of Space Marine armour, able to offer the best protection in a variety of conditions. Many of the Space Marine Legions were entirely or partially re-equipped with it, although the order of which Legions recieved the armour would shortly prove to be of significance.[1] As a result of its widespread production and use prior to and during the Horus Heresy, Mark 4 suits are the most common of the pre-Heresy armour Marks still in service during the 41st Millennium, although only a few Chapters - such as the Red Scorpions and Iron Hands - still possess the technology required to produce new suits.[9]
From lexi. This is a common thing that is brought up, one of these urban myths, and is often this quote when taken out of context - especially as is was produced back in the heady days of White Dwarf 129 originally.



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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Couldn't they just take apart a MK IV suit or improve it with new technology? Reverse engineering like when the Russians revered engineered our jets fighter designs during the Cold War?

What about Aegis Armor? Or is just specialized armor for confronting daemons?
 

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Couldn't they just take apart a MK IV suit or improve it with new technology? Reverse engineering like when the Russians revered engineered our jets fighter designs during the Cold War?

What about Aegis Armor? Or is just specialized armor for confronting daemons?
We're talking about the ad mech to them Reverse engineering would be the same as shitting on a bible.

I smell brimstone.
 

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We're talking about the ad mech to them Reverse engineering would be the same as shitting on a bible.
Rather the opposite.

Innovation and experimentation is (generally) seen as Heresy.

Replicating items from Humanities Glorious Past? No problem. Hence the hunt for a complete STC machine.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I think were getting a bit off topic lol

Are the MK II and MK III more advanced then the MK V- MK VII?
 

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Of the 2 I have to agree that the Mark VI would be more advanced since it has all the good points of the Mark IV with improved factors listed above.

I think the thing that settles it for me are the words "at the time". The Mark IV was the most advanced for a time but then the Mark VI came along and improved on it.

Since the Mark VIII is more advanced than the Mark VI I'd say the Mark VIII would be the most advanced.
 

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Well from the HH FW books, we have MkII Cited as the most efficient armour at the time. We know the MkIII Was an over-taxed, high maintenance type due to it's up-armouring.

The MkIV is clearly cited in many sources as the most advanced type in general distribution at the time.

Likewise we know the MkV was a patchwork design; the hows whys and exact current chronology, we do not know, but basically, it's the on-hand or easy to make parts from Mk II, III and IV, with a head from the Termie project (split thread anyone?).

Calling Beakie armour MkVI should tell us it follows MkV in development, if not production, but this is not exact and it could easily be that the VI was developed before the MkV and the naming conventioned sorted out later. Likewise the MkV could well have been a contingency protocol which had been on hand since before the MkIV for all we know. We do not see very much of Heresy Armour in print, but likely they're overall of poor fit and finish, with some lucky Astartes finding some MkIII or MkIV Surprises in their rush-job replacement suit.

MkVI, is either a dog-standard suit, or an advancement or at least refinement of the technology of the MkIV.

Personally, I always got the sense that the standard-40K MkVII was a stopgap, de-enriched, moneky-model type intended for easy production in place of more advanced MkIV and VI types. The MkVIII seemed more like an improved MkVII, maybe even a direct, possibly modular upgrade. it seems to offer better protection to the Progenoids in apocryphal sources and it *looks* better protected, but it's really hard to say. My feeling is that it's better than a VII, but not so good as a IV.

So what about the odd marks? If we rule out consideration of Thunder armour, as we should because it is obviously less capable in all references I know of, then we only have some odd modifications and inferred transitionary and hybrid types left to consider.

Aegis and Artifacer armour are clearly modifications of other known patterns, though the Grey Knights seem to have their own kit all the way around and we can assume they get the best gear there is. I'd peg them in as wearing a suit as advanced as a IV, with VIIII refinements, but shy of MkIII Armoured protection overall, but that's just my theory.

We see some clearly transitory and hybrid IV-VI and VI-VIII models, but I haven't heard of any in the fluff. People sure build them though. By 40K, I'd expect the legions favouring the VI suits to be either making basically a MkVII suit with a Beakie head and a few odd refinements or maybe having access to advanced technology. In practice, I'd actually consider hybrid suits as MkVs in spirit, if not practice, but likely with better fit, finish and wear over time.

I think longevity of different types would play a role as well. I Look at the MkII, III and V as certainly mass-produced, short life-cycle (in 40K terms) items. Build as many as we can to support needs NOW! and replace them as we go with the tech we have in abundance. Any left in 40K are true relics, or essentially modded VIIs or earlier marks which have been essentially gutted and rebuilt as VIIs internally.

The IV, VI and possibly the VIII if you're an optimist (why are you playing 40K?) look from the fluff a lot more like long-haul legacy equipment built for the duration. Stuff that is meant to last a long time, with a high quality of fit and finish, which is not to say that other marks are ersatz works by a long shot, but that these are higher-quality suits. You're not going to just scrap a MkIV when it get's banged up; whereas if a Marine's MkII or III takes a pounding, you may as well scrap it for parts and give him a new one because it isn't built to be fixed like that and/or economic repairability is low. But by the time you're in the Heresy and much beyond, any suit is precious and you keep your patchwork MkV running as long as possible.

Post Heresy, i see production along two lines; the Holy crap we're drowning lines turn out MkVIIs like sausages and the Gucci line (Quality is remembered, long after price is forgotten) trickles out MkVIs to the best-connected legions, so long as it makes economic sense for them in the post-technological reality of 35-40K, until the VII is the standard suit because the mechanicus lost the data in their last HDD crash.

As things recover, the tech of the IV and VI may as well be lost, but you can start with the VII and improve it and get the MkVIII Errant armour, again more or less for the best set-up and connected legions, but a limited issue item. Demand will be lower, because by now, every issue item is a cultural relic of personal significance, even your comparitively primitive VII, which in balance, I take as inferior in terms of efficiency to a MkII. But again that's me trying to make everything in a chaotic canon all fit in a way that makes sense to me. Also by now, most MkIII suits have been cannibalized to keep MkII relic suits running, or have worn out themselves. Short of Someone like the Iron Hands or Imperial Fists making them, I'd peg MkIIIs as the rarest type in service in 40K, while new "effective MkVs" and hybrid suits should keep showing up out of necessity and as a result of bespoke modifications, mostly with MkIV, VI and VIII parts.

So what's left? Well the odd stuff.

We have the Space Wolves' "Wolf Helm" which you can look at as either proof that the real deal MkVI is something of a lost art and they want to recreate it, or a further improvement. Personally, I look at it as support for my theory of Sub-Stanard MkVI hybrids which are just VIIs under the skin.

We have the Chaos suits which are by now either warp-twisted relics (1000 Sons, Plauge Marines, ect), Hybrids (many, but especially Night Lords, so it seems from some novels), possibly a few instances of an exclusive pattern (which would seem to fit the HH take on the Alpha Legion's MO and makes sense of the Iron Warriors too) and I think a great deal of mass production from daemonic/eye of terror forge worlds (Which is where I peg in stuff that gets issued to folks like those 30,000 Khorne Berserkers (low-maintaince, replace when broken items).

It follows that the Iron Warriors make their own Armour, likely a hybrid/stabilized take on the MkIII, which deals with wear and tear better.

How good is any of it? The Warp does what it wants, so forget trying to rate the corrupted suits. The Night Lord and similar hybrids are going to vary individually based on what's been captured. There is some visual evidence of Emperor's children going for looks over substance (Shocker), so I'd rate their protection at least as inferior to even a MkVII or II, possibly in line with Thunder Armour, but efficiency as probably quite high, but again; it's going to be corrupted in many cases: so whatever.

The Alpha Legion's suits will likely be built as top-rate, probably the equal or superior to HH MkVI suits in stealth, sensors and efficiency and maintained in the field on a catch-as-catch can basis for those who are spread out in cells, sot hey come to rely on skill over steel as time goes on. The Iron Warriors will be building for mass numbers, but tempered by maximum protection; I'd expect their suits to sacrifice efficiency and perhaps longevity due to their normal MO keeping them close to base areas and massive stores ships. But I think that in The Long War, they'd come to value longevity over time and might produce suits of varying quality for troops esteemed differently; the crap for the new guys and the better quality, longer-lasting stuff for the guys *NOT* in the front rank of the forlorn hope.

Berserker-type mass produced suits? Cheap mass-produced junk. if it breaks, they make a slave fix it, they MAKE IT WORK, or their RAGE makes it work, at least long enough for them to contribute in some way to the blood whose origin Khorne cares for, not very much.

Anywho, just my opinions from a long time of reading fluff and trying to make it all make sense. Combined with a fair hunk of back ground in military equipment history.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
That's a whole lot of info there...wow

Still never answered my question. I guess there isn't a simple answer.


MK IV Artificer Armour has to the best of all
 

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That's a whole lot of info there...wow

Still never answered my question. I guess there isn't a simple answer.


MK IV Artificer Armour has to the best of all

Once it's artifacer it doesn't matter the mark; it's better. I'd assume at LEAST as good as the MkIV in every respect with much better protection. But it could be based on any mark and be that good, or it could be a unique design with no reference to any standard type.


If we presume the MkVII is the Monkey-Model, then artifacer armour based on the MkVII is going to be as good, or better in terms of internal workings than any standard mark, but again; superior in protection.
 

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Artificer is a game term. An artificered MkVI is not going to be better than a MkIII, because the MkIII was designed for things such as ship-boarding, and other situations when heavier armour is preferential.

The MkVI was given to the Raven Guard, ostensibly as field testing. Considering that the nature of Raven Guard operations, it's possibly more to their specifications and need than something of iron armour.

Sorry to be pernickity, but stating that something is better is like saying that an iPhone is better than a Samsung, which is complete bollocks because Samsung have got supercomputers. Realise how stupid that argument is, and you'll see why it's "better".

A mark developed later is not necessarily better than one earlier, it's just that they have more specific tasks.

I mean, look at assault rifles. They were designed to combine the best parts of a machine gun, and a rifle. That is what happened with the Mark IV - essentially a one size fits all job. It might have the most advanced systems, and being able to offer the best protection in a variety of conditions, but it's not going to be better than one designed for a particular set of conditions.

"Artificer" armour does not "exist" in 40K. There is no such thing as an "artificered" suit. There is a suit of armour, which is worked on, and improved over time, to the specifications of those who need it for a particular job - similar to how a Raven Guard Mark VI has baffled powerbleeds, and noise filters, etc, while an Imperial fist Mark III has more layered protection. THAT is artificering, or else, in legion times, if it was simply a matter of "producing" artificer equipment, they would do - after all, look at the amount of land raiders and grav tanks and terminator armour they were able to field.



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Artificer is a game term. An artificered MkVI is not going to be better than a MkIII, because the MkIII was designed for things such as ship-boarding, and other situations when heavier armour is preferential.

The MkVI was given to the Raven Guard, ostensibly as field testing. Considering that the nature of Raven Guard operations, it's possibly more to their specifications and need than something of iron armour.

Sorry to be pernickity, but stating that something is better is like saying that an iPhone is better than a Samsung, which is complete bollocks because Samsung have got supercomputers. Realise how stupid that argument is, and you'll see why it's "better".

A mark developed later is not necessarily better than one earlier, it's just that they have more specific tasks.

I mean, look at assault rifles. They were designed to combine the best parts of a machine gun, and a rifle. That is what happened with the Mark IV - essentially a one size fits all job. It might have the most advanced systems, and being able to offer the best protection in a variety of conditions, but it's not going to be better than one designed for a particular set of conditions.

"Artificer" armour does not "exist" in 40K. There is no such thing as an "artificered" suit. There is a suit of armour, which is worked on, and improved over time, to the specifications of those who need it for a particular job - similar to how a Raven Guard Mark VI has baffled powerbleeds, and noise filters, etc, while an Imperial fist Mark III has more layered protection. THAT is artificering, or else, in legion times, if it was simply a matter of "producing" artificer equipment, they would do - after all, look at the amount of land raiders and grav tanks and terminator armour they were able to field.

Well, I'll admit that I haven't been current on the rules since 4th ed, but is not "artifacer armour" a 2+, vs 3+ save? Like termie armour, without the invincible save, right?

In fluff terms though there is more to consider. As described MkIII armour, sometimes lampshaded as "Void Hardened" has better protection as well, but is stated in many sources as being over-taxed and prone to wear. That's not good over time, especially in a setting of 1-10 thousand year old equipment.

Protection is one aspect, wear in service is another, efficiency a third, stealth, electronics, ect. A MkIV Suit is unquestionably superior to a MkIII even "Void Hardened" in all but protection, but in the life cycle of one suit of MkIV Armour, you could put several MkIIIs through complete "automotive" parts replacement a few times, possible replace it several times even, just for being so far beyond economic repairability. if we take the fluff at face value a real MkVI is a further improvement on the MkIV. Though as I noted, I doubt those refinements last long after the heresy in series production.
 

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You do understand fluff =/= rules, hence the introduction of movie marines minidex in a 4th edition white dwarf issie to make them nearer the fluff?

You are talking of cars - a car might be more advanced, a bugatti compared to a land rover. A land rover is rugged but also prone to wear. Those its prone to wear are as a result of the greater stresses are often easier to change.

Power Armour loaded with ablative layers anyway.



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Can't think of one at least.

Compare mentions of artificer armour (note; seperate from artificed/artificer crafted) as opposed to those differentiations of different marks of power armour (rarely a mention of wearing power armour without noting that they're super special snowflake by wearing mkIII/mkIV/mkVI) or terminator armour.

One of the few mentions of AArmour is 5th edition C;SM, and that was in reference to the appearance of artificer armour - which looks exactly like power armour with a few more crafted bits on it - and from that appearance, it's unclear as to what exactly provides that extra 17% survivability - if it's simply a matter of adding on skulls, then why does not every space marine have that inscribed on?

In typical 1980's sci-fi steampunk fantasy style, everything of an earlier age is more potent, and is a lost art and cannot be recreated, yada yada. With the advent of 30K, that had to be expanded upon - where it's either master crafted by the mechanicum, or embellished with ciphers of strength and durability (if that's all it is, why aren't they all?) or of a wildly differing design from a zenith of humanities forgotten technical might - in which case, why did they not produce enough and how did the Emperor not come up with a way to equip them with this better armour.

Artificer Armour is mostly a "gameism" in Warhammer parlance, and regardless of whether it's artificer crafted or not, it's still just power armour in the eyes of many writers.

Ironically, from the quick shot of the models - Sevatar has among the most notable and OTT crafted armour available, and is only equipped with Power Armour - Kharn, meanwhile, is missing an entire limb of armour, and still has a 2+ Save. Meanwhile, his Primarch is sitting pretty in power armour.

I stand by it's a gamelogic that doesn't translate to the fluff - such as why a Primarch is in a battle containing 30 allied marines with 3 spartan tanks, and is facing up against a battle titan and 20 marines, instead of several thousand strong planetary assaults.



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