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Ranty ranter!
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I almost refuse to play against armies with Obliterator SPAM. (Edited for clarity) They are to me the incarnation of beardy cheese beardyness, and to think some people would use something that broken tells me they are win-at-all-cost people, because I seriously would be so guilt-stricken if fielding such an army I would ask my opponent if I could nerf them before playing.

Yet it has been brought up that the Chaos Codex is full of shit, and apparently this one thing is their only glimmer of hope and I should just shut up but NO I will not let you beat me down!

What's yours?
 

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I am going to throw out the obvious here.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS CHEESE IN 40K!

Reasons as to why is because 40K is a lot like a game of rock-paper-scissors. In other words what you consider to be an unbeatable unit with the army and units you use will easily be killed by another unit in either a different army or even a different unit within your own codex.

Just find what works. Oblits can be ID'd by any S8 weapon. If you load up on melta and can't close range thena that is your fault and problem.
 

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Ranty ranter!
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Discussion Starter #3
I am going to throw out the obvious here.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS CHEESE IN 40K!

Reasons as to why is because 40K is a lot like a game of rock-paper-scissors. In other words what you consider to be an unbeatable unit with the army and units you use will easily be killed by another unit in either a different army or even a different unit within your own codex.

Just find what works. Oblits can be ID'd by any S8 weapon. If you load up on melta and can't close range thena that is your fault and problem.
Wow.

How does the fact that 'there are things to counter X' justify that X is about 100 points too cheap for what it does?

A SINGLE Obliterator is about as good as ONE Broadside, a Broadside costs TWICE as much and Obliterators can DEEP STRIKE and be fielded in 5 MAN DERP STRIKING UNITS.

Logic man.
 

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Well That Was Unexpected
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I almost refuse to play against armies with Obliterators. They are to me the incarnation of beardy cheese beardyness, and to think some people would use something that broken tells me they are win-at-all-cost people, because I seriously would be so guilt-stricken if fielding such an army I would ask my opponent if I could nerf them before playing.

What's yours?
Are you insane?

That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

You refuse to play against armies that include Obliterators?

A unit that can be torrented AND instant killed.

They aren't exactly cheap at 75pts a pop, unlike say Hive Guard, which are 50pts each, Toughness 6, 2 wounds, BS 4, have a strength 8 Assault 2 gun that can fire INDIRECTLY!!!

Or how about the Toughness 6, WOUND 6, 3+ save toting MC that can spawn scoring units each turn, oh and count as scoring himself .... Mr Tervigon?

Or how about most of the Blood Angels stuff, cheaper devastators, fast vehicles, Baal Predators, some psychic powers, etc?

So basically, you won't fight against one of the weakest codices in terms of overall competitiveness if they take probably the one unit in the entire codex that is good in any given situation.

Now, everyone who knows me here at Heresy, knows that I'm a pure fluff player and hate any form of 'competitive' gaming, but your comment is just completely stupid.

So my question for you is, are you being serious or are you just trying to stir up stuff online?
 

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Obliterators are max 3 per unit. Also, there's no way you can claim that a lascannon is as good as a tl-railgun...
If they're closing to use meltas they're vulnerable to cc, enemy melts, etc..

Know your own strengths and your enemies weaknesses and you'll go a lot farther than refusing to play against anything you don't know how to beat!
 

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I personally think that since it is not possible to balance two codexs together, that the only fair way is to fight yourself in ever fight. Even then, I find myself yelling cheese every time my Cattachans fight my Cadians...

Okay, so obviously I am kidding. I just try to remember that every unit I see that seems unbalanced, there is likely a hindrance to that unit or the army as a whole that the player is having to accommodate. For example, one army might be capable of fielding tons of amazing CC units, but the shooting style cost more or may have range issues or whatever. It helps me enjoy the game.

That all being said, the cheesiest unit (since you did ask) is the... hmm, I am gonna think on this an edit in my choice later. EDIT: Chose Kroot... lol
 

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Ranty ranter!
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Discussion Starter #7
You refuse to play against armies that include Obliterators?
I said 'almost'. Important to note. I will however hate every second of seeing such cheese, refer to XV88 comparison for just cause.
 

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Well That Was Unexpected
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I said 'almost'. Important to note. I will however hate every second of seeing such cheese, refer to XV88 comparison for just cause.
Your comparing an Obliterator to an XV88?

Why?

Whoop dee doo, one is (arguably) better than the other, because you have taken into account nothing else, such as tactics, terrain, opponent, complimentary units/list etc.

You know what, a Swarmlord is better than an Etheral and Mephiston is better than a Tau Crises Suit Commander .... so what?
 

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I highly doubt that he is trying to stir up the forum. That being said, I agree that he is being overly whiny about one unit. Basically, it is a unit that is well equipped to handle the Tau and he hasn't figured out how to handle them. Last time I fought Obliterators, I dropped a Str 10 AP 2 large template on them, then had plasma cannons and lascannons clean up any survivors (fortunately, there weren't any and I continued on).

Now, that being said, I have had several times where an opponent brought something that I had no clue as to how to handle it. Eventually, I worked it out every time. That isn't cheese though. That is your opponent being smart enough to bring a unit that will disrupt/dismantle his opponent. Also, you wouldn't bring them against every army. For example, what would be the point of bringing Obliterators against Orks... Unless they knew that Ork player was planning on bringing Stompas and Battle Wagons lol.

All that being said (again!), we have gone off topic a bit... He was making another thread for people to vent about which units they personally find cheesy and why. We don't need to be slamming his selection and what have you. I will select the Kroot.
 

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Ranty ranter!
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Discussion Starter #10
How self righteous people get over something like this is pure /boggle. If you're really Ghandi incarnated and don't get even a slight twinge of reduced fighting spirit against as much as one unit in a game of thousands... Grats, you're a saint, a model opponent, a true sporting gentleman... More importantly, you should have left this thread alone as it is clearly not for you.
 

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I would expect allied Inquisitors/Mystics to go away in the new GK (or Whatever) codex. I like the concept of Inquisition allies, but being able to bring such powerful anti-deepstrike capability into Marine and IG lists is unbalancing. I don't have a problem with them within their own Codex though.

As a Nid player, I'm jealous of the super cheap transports and wickedly powerful ICs with invulnerable saves that Marines get. I wouldn't really call individual units cheesy though. Nids get a lot of stuff that they don't get, like T6 W6 MCs that can shrug off melta hits.

Certain builds look cheesy to certain armies, but I have yet to see the ultimate all-comers list. Closest is probably the infamous "Leafblower", but make it strict 40K instead of the Imperial Armor units and it becomes more pedestrian. That's also a lot of the motivation for wanting to do away with allied Mystics, as countering deepstrike takes away a lot of the weaknesses of the IG codex.
 

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Obliterators seem fine to me. They are scary and effective, but nothing to take offence at.

The OP's point still stands though, there certainly are some units (or combinations of units) that are just unsporting. F'rex I could field three Exorcists, but I don't because I'm a gentleman. I don't know what it was like in 3e but today the Exorcist is simply too cheap for what it can do.

Most things in the Space Wolf codex seem under-priced - they are certainly cheaper than vanilla Marines for no real downside (Long Fangs units are smaller than Devestator units, so have fewer ablative wounds, but it's hardly a sufficient handicap to justify the price) and then there's the Vendetta...

I grant my army doesn't have a 5e Codex, but if the Vendetta were in my codex for 200 points, I'd still field it and call it a bargain - I suspect I'm not alone.

I think most Guard players would agree that it's too good for its points.
 

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How self righteous people get over something like this is pure /boggle. If you're really Ghandi incarnated and don't get even a slight twinge of reduced fighting spirit against as much as one unit in a game of thousands... Grats, you're a saint, a model opponent, a true sporting gentleman... More importantly, you should have left this thread alone as it is clearly not for you.
Well, see, that's not what you posted about. You were asking for people to vent about "imbalanced" and "cheesy" units that people "almost refuse" (whatever that means) to play against, and combined it with a rant where you lambasted people who run the (arguably) only good chaos heavy support choice as being "beardy" and "waac"..

Your attitude annoys a lot of people because it's common among bad players who whine when their opponents use tactics they don't know how to beat instead of learning how to play. This type of player is known as a "scrub". I don't know whether you're a scrub, but you have a lot of the same complaints that they do.

And you're wondering why you raised hackles?

You'd probably have gotten a better reception if you asked about what enemy units people find annoying or frustrating, rather than what they "almost refuse to play against".



On topic, I nominate SM librarians as the unit that annoys me most to play against. Stupid null zone psychic hood superflamer BS.
 

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Wanna talk about cheese, talk about 3rd edition eldar that cold field 30 wraithguard and 3 wraithlords at 1500 or jet bikes that you could not shoot but shot the hell out of you.

And it is impossible to judge one dex from another and here is why:

The Nids dex and CSM dex may have identical statlines, but in the nid dex it is 25 points more. OMFGHAX why? Because the character with that statline may not fit the overall flavor of the army so there is a penalty accessed. Oblits are not broke IMHO, but they maybe in yours. That is your right to say that.

To the people who wanna act like an inflamed hemeroid, the moment he started to "stir up shit" was the exact moment folks decided to break this down to name calling. In the wise words of Jezlad, chill the fuck out.
 

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Ranty ranter!
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Discussion Starter #15
Well, see, that's not what you posted about. You were asking for people to vent about "imbalanced" and "cheesy" units that people "almost refuse" (whatever that means) to play against, and combined it with a rant where you lambasted people who run the (arguably) only good chaos heavy support choice as being "beardy" and "waac"..

Your attitude annoys a lot of people because it's common among bad players who whine when their opponents use tactics they don't know how to beat instead of learning how to play. This type of player is known as a "scrub". I don't know whether you're a scrub, but you have a lot of the same complaints that they do.

And you're wondering why you raised hackles?

You'd probably have gotten a better reception if you asked about what enemy units people find annoying or frustrating, rather than what they "almost refuse to play against".



On topic, I nominate SM librarians as the unit that annoys me most to play against. Stupid null zone psychic hood superflamer BS.
Well maybe my wording was poorly chosen, in combination with less perception from the readers (as clearly you have already put me in a booth with these 'whiners' when in fact there are few ways to word it more pleasing)

Anyway, when I face Obliterators, it's Obliterator SPAM. Which is probably why they sicken me to the teeth. I am by no means a bad player, I am actually one of the people-to-playtest-against over here, but I'm not unsporting either.

The things Oblits seem to be able to do against any of my often fielded armies and the array of responses to them is just insane. The point cost is way skewed.

The fact that the rest of the Chaos codex is a bit sub par doesn't really change that. This is about unit balance, not codex balance.

I have a friend who likes spamming Librarians and Vindicators. I'd rather play him any day. Although his tactics are equal, the units are not.
 

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Well That Was Unexpected
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Well, see, that's not what you posted about. You were asking for people to vent about "imbalanced" and "cheesy" units that people "almost refuse" (whatever that means) to play against, and combined it with a rant where you lambasted people who run the (arguably) only good chaos heavy support choice as being "beardy" and "waac"..

Your attitude annoys a lot of people because it's common among bad players who whine when their opponents use tactics they don't know how to beat instead of learning how to play. This type of player is known as a "scrub". I don't know whether you're a scrub, but you have a lot of the same complaints that they do.

And you're wondering why you raised hackles?

You'd probably have gotten a better reception if you asked about what enemy units people find annoying or frustrating, rather than what they "almost refuse to play against".
Even though I said I wouldn't post again (I've calmed down), I just want to say, maybe I did go a little overboard and I don't want a rep as being an asshole.

In saying that LastDaysOfHumanity made me realise exactly what pissed me off so much about the OP. (So +rep for you).

1. You might have added the word 'almost', but you also included 'refused to play against', and your reason for doing so was your opponent taking a particular unit, not just spamming the shit out of that unit at the expense of all other choices.

2. You picked on CSM's, I mean seriously, there have been a number of threads lately that attack our codex one way or another and after numerous times defending the codex as 'not as bad as everyone makes out', you came along and trashed the one truly unique and all-round decent unit we have.

3. You accused people who take the unit as being 'Beardy' and/or WAAC, when to be honest, given the newer codices available, you really had loads of things to choose to hate on, but you chose us Chaos players, who lets be honest are in a bad way with our armies, with no sign of things getting better.

Anyway.

Getting back on track, and with a little modification on the original question.

Units I hate to see spammed in an army are:

In my home Codex (Chaos Space Marines)

Daemon Princes ((especially Lash)
Plague Marines
Obliterators

In other codices

Hive Guard
Baal Predators
Blood Angels Assault Marines withouth Jet Packs
Blood Angels Razorbacks
Tzeentch Chariots in the Daemon Codex

Basically any unit where people have determined that is the only viable unit in the entire slot such as Fast Attack, Heavy Support etc, and then proceed to spam it.

So like I said, sorry about being a dick, but the way you posed this topic did/does piss me off.
 

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But then again why the fuck do you not hide in cover. There is no unbeatable unit out there. There are some which seem OP or what-have you but they all have severe weaknesses that you must be intelligent enough to exploit. For example oblits crap themselves when facing lascannons or any other weapon S8 and above.

Heck my current army packs in 5 lascannons (3 of which are twin linked) and 8 missile launchers in 1500 points. They would laugh at obliterators.
 

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Cheesy = Wraithlord "what do you mean I used to have armor values and caused psykers heads to explode when I died?" And that is my home dex and yes I play them, normally 2 in my Iyanden force. Nothing says fun like putting down 40 guard and smilling at your opponent. But TBH it sucks in capture objective missions where hoard armies have better luck but in VP I will normally win just because my stuff is a PITA to kill.



Yes there is reason Iyanden are yellow, its the color of cheese!
 

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Ranty ranter!
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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
Tau has the seeker missile and the rail gun. The prior is something you don't use in throngs as it's inefficient, and the latter should be making holes in tanks.

Space marines have Vindicators, and I won't stoop to spamming Vindicators to combat Obliterator spam aka. be as 'bad' as them

Tyranids have... Zoanthropes? A unit not widely used by functioning individuals (I think, a bit rusty on the new 'dex)

But yeah, I'll edit the OP.

EDIT: Anyway, Chaos has the Demon Prince and Zerkers, none of which are bad or even average. They're rather good IMO.
 
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