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Discussion Starter #1
When Fulgrim went to try an convert Manus to their cause, what would have happened if Manus killed Fulgrim that early in the heresy?


Also, what would have happened if everything went as normal but Manus killed Fulgrim on Istvaan V?
 

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Closet Dictator
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When Fulgrim went to try an convert Manus to their cause, what would have happened if Manus killed Fulgrim that early in the heresy?


Also, what would have happened if everything went as normal but Manus killed Fulgrim on Istvaan V?
We would have been spared some god awful fluff!!!!!!!!!!
 

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Manus killing Fulgrim on Istvaan would have several effects on the Heresy. First off, I want to say that Istvaan would still have been a traitor victory. Three completely surprised legions stand no chance against 8. The only difference there would be more Iron Hands surviving, especially the elite terminators and Dreadnoughts.

Now the aftermath would be interesting. The Emperor's Children would crumble without Fulgrim. He was their leader and sole bond in their corruption. Without, the legion would disintegrate into the familiar warbands of modern 40K. Some might follow Horus, but most would go into the wilderness and pillage worlds in the background of the Heresy. So Horus would have one less legion to bring against the loyalists.

The Iron Hands role would also be different. When Manus was originally killed, the Iron Hands were KO'd out of the fighting and did next nothing for the rest of the Heresy. But with Manus alive and much of the elite leadership still intact, the Iron Hands would be a player in the Heresy after all. The losses they would have taken would have been similar to the Raven Guard, but Manus' headstrong natiure would leave him unable to just sit out. He would set out for Terra at all speed. The threat of another legion and Primarch bolstering Terra's defenses would have probably forced Horus to divert a legion to stall them, much like how he sent the Night Lords to stall the Dark Angels. My money is on either the Iron Warriors or the Death Guard being sent.

So when the Traitors ultimately reach Terra, they are two legions under strength or one legion under strength and the Loyalists over one more. Such odds would probably force Horus to use more desperate tactics. Also, with either another legion holding the walls or two less assaulting them, the Emperor might not have felt the need to duel Horus to end the fighting. He would have waited for the Loyalist reinforcements to arrive, and between the Loyalist armies, the Traitors would have been crushed. Perhaps the Emperor might have still needed to fight Horus as no other could kill him (or maybe he would have let the guns of the ships of three Space Marine legions do the work, even a Chaos-powered Primarch isn't invulnerable against a lance strike). As to the current condition of the Emperor, I can't predict.

After Heresy, Manus would have been instrumental in the Scouring, though his headstrong nature would have resulted in the Legion taking even more casualties and thus barely surviving, let alone regrouping and replenishing themselves. He probably would have supported Dorn as well in his argument against Guilliman over the Codex Astartes. That additional support might have been all Dorn needed to plunge the Imperium into another catastrophic inter-legion war, that would ultimately result in the rapid death of the Imperium.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
If Ferrus survived Istvaan V I wonder if Guilliman would have even thought of creating the Codex, being that there was another surviving Primarch. Also, Manus would have accompanied the Emperor, Sanguinus, and Dorn when they went onto Horus' ship. Manus may have been able to keep Sanguinus alive. With Sanguinus, Manus, and the Emperor surviving in this scenario, Guilliman would not have created the codex.
 

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If Ferrus survived Istvaan V I wonder if Guilliman would have even thought of creating the Codex, being that there was another surviving Primarch. Also, Manus would have accompanied the Emperor, Sanguinus, and Dorn when they went onto Horus' ship. Manus may have been able to keep Sanguinus alive. With Sanguinus, Manus, and the Emperor surviving in this scenario, Guilliman would not have created the codex.
Guilliman I believe was already beginning to work on the Codex after the Word Bearers attack on Calth. He viewed the problem as being one where too much power was concentrated in the hands of individuals, not a lack of Primarchs to command. After all, the Traitors had their own Primarchs. Also, the Khan was on Terra at the time too, yet he wasn't brought with the boarding party. But what you say is true, the Emperor's survival is critical to any decisions post-Heresy.
 

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The Emperor Protects
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I don't believe for a moment that Manus would have escaped Istvaan alive if he killed Fulgrim there, or would have been captured. He was far too deep into the enemy lines when the second betrayal happened anyway. But if he had killed Fulgrim, I think his rage would have just carried him forwards, he would want Horus head as well, along with all the other traitors.

So yeah, massive ramifications for the Emperors Children. But Ferrus would still end up dead or captured, and all the Morlocks dead also , even more so infact, as I doubt even one of them would retreat with the Raven Guard or Salamanders if Ferrus was still fighting. The Iron Hands who never got to Istvaan might have taken a different mindset though, not quite as despairing and fatalistic, knowing that even though he died, he took Fulgrim and a hell of a lot of Emperors Children down with him. If he was captured, again a whole new mindset.
 

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Craw-Daddy
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It might have helped the traitors had Fulgrim been killed in my opinion. We see after Istvaan that the Emperor's Children along with Fulgrim have become completely indulged and selfish with their acts of pleasure and perfection. They have attacked other legions and threatened the survival of the Heresy itself. It almost brings up the question on whether the moment Istvaan was finished that the Chaos Gods had set up a chain of events that caused the Chaos Legions to self destruct with inferior battle tactics and wasted time.
 

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Also on a side note, keep in mind that Guilliman would probably have helped run the Imperium for longer--perhaps much, much, much longer. Maybe even to the modern M.41!

Could you imagine where the Imperium would be with the greatest logistician alive at the helm for 10,000 years?
 

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Angryman
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Haliene has hit it on the head. Taking out fulgrim spares Guilliman. That is a pretty huge change in the long run. As for angel of blood's comments regarding the survival of Ferrus, once he dispatched fulgrim his rage may well dissipate, resulting in an attempt to withdraw, Some of the morlocks who fought alongside him escaped, so there is no reason why he couldn't.
 

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Or Fulgrim could have pulled a Lucius or an Eidolan. A lot of Emperors Children Characters are killed, yet mysteriously come back to life. Even fulgrim himself does in a way with his "escape" (still an awful piece of fluff)

Ferrus betting him does not guarantee his end.

If he stayed dead I think the Children would have 90% sided with Horus for vengeance. The Children had spent many years alongside them so many would have trusted Horus to their core. Expecially true after the HUGE purge casualties they took on Istvann 3. The Legion as a whole were not heavily corrupt by Isstvan 4, the rot heavily sets in after the battle, without fulgrim, the rot may not have overcome the legion.
 

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You also have to wonder what, if any, path Perturabo would then have taken to ascend to Daemonhood without the coaching/example of Fulgrim on how to do so in Angel Exterminatus?
 

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Fulgrim being killed by Ferrus wouldn't necessarily result in Guilliman surviving any longer than he did. That's a huge butterfly effect ripple, and would change many many things, Guilliman might even somehow end up dead earlier than his current death, perhaps even during the Heresy. Horus might have ordered Lorgar and Angron to kill Guilliman when he sent them to Ultramar in retaliation for Fulgrims death.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Horus probably would have sent more than the World Eaters and Word Bearers to kill the Ultramarines. With Fulgrim dead and his legion mostly out of the fight, Horus would have put a much higher priority on making sure that the Ultramarines were completely wiped out.

Horus would have known that Fulgrim was killed, he would have personally tracked and killed Ferrus.
 

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With Fulgrim dead and his legion mostly out of the fight, Horus would have put a much higher priority on making sure that the Ultramarines were completely wiped out.
This doesn't make sense to me. Because Horus had less forces and the Emperor had more forces, Horus would have allocated more men to fight in a theater just about as far away from Terra as you can get while staying in the Imperium?

Also the grand scheme picture for the UMs were not to completely wipe them out. If they could, that'd be sexy as hell, but it wasn't the primary objective.

The WBs attacking the Ultramarines were two fold:

1. Get rid of the WBs too blinded by hate to work effectively.

2. Kick up enough mental and physical trauma to isolate Ultramar from the rest of the Imperium (IE the Ruinstorm).

Kor Phaeron screwed up Calth, so Lorgar had to take over. Still, it wasn't in Horus or Lorgar's minds to actually destroy the Ultramarines. Not at this point, anyway.
 

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The Primarchs attract too much attention of the Chaos Gods, and I think it is reasonable that the Chaos Gods had a lot to do with the disapearence and/killing of them. It seems inferred that Magnus had in some way taken Russ out of the picture from ever intervening again in The Battle of the Fang. Its also interesting that one of the few times Fulgrim ever decides to challenge the Imperium is when they confront the Ultramarines led by Guilliman. One way or another, it seems that Chaos forces have been dealt even greater hands against a loyalist Primarch still around. Its probably for the best that they no longer exist as leaders of the Imperium.
 
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