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I can never see Khorn as sneaky/plotting.
And likely why the Space Wolves are still loyal unlike the Thousand Sons.


But I digress, the Wolfdna blending of the early fenrisian colonists was to better stand live on their death world by drawing on the strenght of the wolf. But chaos enlarges and magnifies negative character traits, manifesting all that in those that gave in to their inner beast. Letting it be fully unchained. Something which the space wolves fights with on a constant basis. In the first ragnar blackmane novel, theres lots of good sequences of how he is squaring off against the beast that have been roused inside him and how he learns to live with it and not succumbing to it or embracing it to turn into a feral, mindless monster only driven by its urges and hungers.

We dont know how many Space wolves that fails that test during initiation, but even then early success is no guarantee as the initiate may devolve into a ravening wulfen. Only the barest few managing to keep control of themselves like Redmaw. So many similarities with the problems had by the Blood Angels, and Id presume the Thousand Sons as well if we knew more about how the flesh change would occur for them. Only the Space Wolves seems to have a much better grasp with dealing with their internal monster.

Edit: Hrm, you know. Perhaps its the culture of the space wolves that makes them much better suited to deal with their Primarch's legacy that may may not have been caused by the dark gods. But look at the Space Wolves, young uns are formed into Blood Claw packs where they are taught how to deal with their inner beast and their aggression. Whereas compared to the Blood Angels, they would rather pretend their gene curse not existing, every struggle a solitary affair until the mind of an unfortunate snaps and he becomes taken by the blood hunger and eventually ending up in the Death Company, or axed by Astorath the Grim. Making their curse a constant source of fear none of them wants to talk about. But we know that the curse is beatable, exceptional Blood Angels have forced it back down. Though it leaves one wondering if more would succeed if they would more openly face their problem instead of considering it taboo until it raises its head.
 

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I hate to use something out of The Outcast Dead but it brings up an excellent point. There's a difference between being omniscient and omnipotent.

The Emperor could see what cards he was going to draw ahead of time, but you can't get a royal flush every time. Sometimes you have to settle for the best you can get. Sometimes that's just a two-pair.
This is a good point but it doesn't really explain Russ. 1) Is it really so super necessary to have a wolf-like Primarch that you'd go to the trouble of genetically manipulating the population of the planet he will eventually land on? 2) If he knows where they are going to land wouldn't it be more important to remove (or prevent the development of) the Nails technology, or introduce law and order to Nostromo, or (most importantly) secular ideology to Culchis? Did he rate having a wolfy Russ as more important than a useable Angron, a loyal Curze or hell, stopping the entire Heresy?

But previous manipulation of the Fenrisian genestock dulled the Wulfen curse effect to the point where the legion could still function properly, with no need to make a deal with chaos to prevent total degradation.
Though since the Chaos Gods picked where the Primarchs landed you'd think they'd make sure that they didn't pick the single solitary planet that would undo the whole plan.

And likely why the Space Wolves are still loyal unlike the Thousand Sons.
The Space Wolves are loyal because the Chaos Gods needed them to be loyal. I thought that was made pretty clear in Prospero Burns. Chaos manipulated the Wolves into nearly destroying the Sons in order to get Magnus to turn. Without a loyal Russ that doesn't happen and that'd piss Tzeentch off to no end. That might actually explain why Russ was put on Fenris though, in order to make sure he was threat enough for a) the Emperor to send him and b) Magnus to fight him, as well as possibly to make him and his soldiers loose their cool in battle.
 

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Pretty clear to me, he was allowed to be put in his intended place, as they planned to use him against Magnus. While boosting the potency of Russ' legacy to monstrous levels to create the wulfen and opening avenues for future corruption after they had served their purpose in the grand plan.
 

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And likely why the Space Wolves are still loyal unlike the Thousand Sons.


But I digress, the Wolfdna blending of the early fenrisian colonists was to better stand live on their death world by drawing on the strenght of the wolf. But chaos enlarges and magnifies negative character traits, manifesting all that in those that gave in to their inner beast. Letting it be fully unchained. Something which the space wolves fights with on a constant basis. In the first ragnar blackmane novel, theres lots of good sequences of how he is squaring off against the beast that have been roused inside him and how he learns to live with it and not succumbing to it or embracing it to turn into a feral, mindless monster only driven by its urges and hungers.

We dont know how many Space wolves that fails that test during initiation, but even then early success is no guarantee as the initiate may devolve into a ravening wulfen. Only the barest few managing to keep control of themselves like Redmaw. So many similarities with the problems had by the Blood Angels, and Id presume the Thousand Sons as well if we knew more about how the flesh change would occur for them. Only the Space Wolves seems to have a much better grasp with dealing with their internal monster.

Edit: Hrm, you know. Perhaps its the culture of the space wolves that makes them much better suited to deal with their Primarch's legacy that may may not have been caused by the dark gods. But look at the Space Wolves, young uns are formed into Blood Claw packs where they are taught how to deal with their inner beast and their aggression. Whereas compared to the Blood Angels, they would rather pretend their gene curse not existing, every struggle a solitary affair until the mind of an unfortunate snaps and he becomes taken by the blood hunger and eventually ending up in the Death Company, or axed by Astorath the Grim. Making their curse a constant source of fear none of them wants to talk about. But we know that the curse is beatable, exceptional Blood Angels have forced it back down. Though it leaves one wondering if more would succeed if they would more openly face their problem instead of considering it taboo until it raises its head.
Look at mephistons situation. He succumbed to the red thirst and then was buried under tons of rubble. Unable to move or do anything. All he could do was face it and conquer it.

No other BA was put through that.
 

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Did he though? There are several veiled hints in the codex that maybe he had some "outside" help with it.
Though in the Mephiston LE release, theres a chaplain whom also succumbs to the black rage, but is so steadfast of character that he manages to fight it off. But considering Mephiston to be tainted for what he have become by conquering the black rage, he chooses to dive back into the madness of sanguinius' legacy rather than to become alike him.
 

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Did he though? There are several veiled hints in the codex that maybe he had some "outside" help with it.
What kind of outside help?

I'm assuming chaos at this point, if that's the case how does it matter? a grey knight uses a daemon weapon. what's the difference.
 

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This is a good point but it doesn't really explain Russ. 1) Is it really so super necessary to have a wolf-like Primarch that you'd go to the trouble of genetically manipulating the population of the planet he will eventually land on? 2) If he knows where they are going to land wouldn't it be more important to remove (or prevent the development of) the Nails technology, or introduce law and order to Nostromo, or (most importantly) secular ideology to Culchis? Did he rate having a wolfy Russ as more important than a useable Angron, a loyal Curze or hell, stopping the entire Heresy?
As I said, the line of logic allows for ANYTHING to be "right".

Also, sure, He got screwed by a lot of things, but on the other hand he did come out ahead with Guilliman, Dorn, the speed at which the GC progressed...You can't just look at the bad. Maybe the overall package was worth it. Or simply less bad than the alternatives.

The Space Wolves are loyal because the Chaos Gods needed them to be loyal.
I don't think the Chaos gods made the Space Wolves loyal. The Chaos gods surely used the Wolves' loyalty to their benefit, of course.

Chaos manipulated the Wolves into nearly destroying the Sons in order to get Magnus to turn.
Actually the false-Horus was sorta angry about how Magnus was willing to accept his fate. If I recall correctly, the daemon was disapointed that the Thousand Sons accepted their near-complete destruction instead of taking the Wolves down with them.
 

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Ehm I think the Space Wolves were loyal because that's how Empy and Russ met. I mean Leman Russ accept above anything else and Empy proved stronger than him. So Leman Russ follow Empy. The Chaos gods had zero to do with that.

As for the Chaos gods exploiting the loyalty of the Space Wolves, excuse me, but that's quite the original fanfiction you have come up with there MEQ. The closest thing was Horus changing orders, which Leman Russ was more than happy to oblige with.

Who is the false-Horus? I know of Little Horus and the cloanes, and Abbaddon looks like Horus, but I don't know of anyone named False Horus. Or do you mean the decoy that was sniped?
 

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Who is the false-Horus? I know of Little Horus and the cloanes, and Abbaddon looks like Horus, but I don't know of anyone named False Horus. Or do you mean the decoy that was sniped?
Exactly what the name says. It was a daemon/tzentch that disguised it's self as Horus.
 

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What kind of outside help?

I'm assuming chaos at this point, if that's the case how does it matter? a grey knight uses a daemon weapon. what's the difference.
The difference being that he now may not be entirely alone in his own head. One of the most influential leaders of a first founding chapter that seems to have a better relationship than most with it's successors would be a perfect target for possession.
 

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The Space Wolves are loyal because the Chaos Gods needed them to be loyal. I thought that was made pretty clear in Prospero Burns. Chaos manipulated the Wolves into nearly destroying the Sons in order to get Magnus to turn. Without a loyal Russ that doesn't happen and that'd piss Tzeentch off to no end. That might actually explain why Russ was put on Fenris though, in order to make sure he was threat enough for a) the Emperor to send him and b) Magnus to fight him, as well as possibly to make him and his soldiers loose their cool in battle.
The original plan was to have the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons annihilate each other. From Prospero Burns, page 426-427:

‘I had hoped for more, if I am honest,’ he said. ‘Magnus is terribly
misguided. His dabblings have brought him perilously close
to damnation, and my father was right to restrain him. But he
would never have toppled over the brink without this violent
provocation. I had so wanted the Wolves and the Sons to annihilate
each other here on Prospero, and remove themselves as
threats at a stroke.
But Magnus and Russ have remained true to
character. Magnus, high-minded and pious, has accepted his
punishment and been destroyed. Russ, relentless and brute-loyal,
has not wavered in his appalling task. The Thousand Sons have
been destroyed. The Wolves remain in play.’
He looked at me, and there was a glitter in his eye.
‘But in the fate of Magnus and his sons, there is compensation
for me. Broken by defeat, they nevertheless come across to my
side. As a consequence, I earn some redress against the fact that
the Vlka Fenryka remain a stark and extant danger to me.’[/I]
 

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Actually the false-Horus was sorta angry about how Magnus was willing to accept his fate. If I recall correctly, the daemon was disapointed that the Thousand Sons accepted their near-complete destruction instead of taking the Wolves down with them.
Right. They wanted Magnus to turn quicker.

Ehm I think the Space Wolves were loyal because that's how Empy and Russ met.
Leman Russ' first meeting with the Emperor was far less cordial than many other Primarchs, yet he remained loyal where they did not. Night Haunter, Lorgar and Magnus all yielded immediately to the Emperor yet they also all turned. Mortarion respects strength and toughness, yet the Emperor besting him remained a point of contention between them. Clearly there is more at play in the Space Wolves loyalty than the meeting between Primarch and Emperor.

As for the Chaos gods exploiting the loyalty of the Space Wolves, excuse me, but that's quite the original fanfiction you have come up with there MEQ. The closest thing was Horus changing orders, which Leman Russ was more than happy to oblige with.
It would be a pretty original fan-fiction if it wasn't already written down by Dan Abnett in Prospero Burns. Your ignorance about the false Horus just shows to me that you haven't read that book, so maybe you should do that.

The original plan was to have the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons annihilate each other.
That's not any of the gods speaking. I personally don't think that Horus' and the gods plans were always the same (Signus for example) so just because Horus wanted the Sons and Wolves to destroy each other doesn't mean that the gods (or god) didn't aim to have Magnus turn.
 

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I never questioned the fact that Empy and Leman Russ didn't meet under amicable circumstances. Infact I'm the chap that added the points that Empy should eat and drink Russ under the table at 1d4-chan.

Ad no I haven't read the book as the reports I have read seems ludicrous for me.
 

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Ad no I haven't read the book as the reports I have read seems ludicrous for me.
Well, not to put to fine a point on it, but maybe you should familiarize yourself with the latest Space Wolf fluff before you accuse people of making stuff up.
 

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Maybe it's a good idea. I guess I should read it so I at least can burn it after reading it if I don't like it. Though reading about Supermen, bah I could just as well watch a John Cena-match or watch Smallville as that likely wouldn't be any fun for me (I'm actually a fan of Smallville). Well at least Phil Kelly and Matt Ward haven't written the book as I suspect that would be completely unbearable.
 

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That's not any of the gods speaking. I personally don't think that Horus' and the gods plans were always the same (Signus for example) so just because Horus wanted the Sons and Wolves to destroy each other doesn't mean that the gods (or god) didn't aim to have Magnus turn.
That wasn't Horus. It was a Daemon wearing the Warmaster's shape.

‘What are you really?’ I asked.
‘You know my name,’ he laughed.
‘That’s just a mask, isn’t it?’ I said, pointing at his face. ‘What
are you really?’
‘Which mask would you prefer?’ he asked. He raised his hand
to his face, and tore away the flesh. It split like the husk of a peapod,
like fibrous vegetable matter, spilling sap like languid honey.
The features of Horus Lupercal parted, and underneath them
was the laughing face of Amon, Equerry to the Crimson King.
‘This one? The one you spoke to on Nikaea? The real Amon was
far below at his primarch’s side.’
He dropped the shredded Horus face onto the deck. It landed
with the splat of rotten fruit. Then he peeled the Amon face away
too. Milky sap spurted out and spattered down his breastplate,
drooling across the great staring eye. Now the sadly knowing
features of my old colleague Navid Murza gazed at me.
‘Or this one?’
‘The real one,’ I said. ‘The real one. No mask, just your real
face.’
‘You could not bear to look upon it,’ Navid said. ‘No one can
behold the baleful light of the Primordial Annihilator and survive.
 

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SW successor chapters

I am pushed for time and didn't read all of the previous comments, all excellent and interesting I apologise for that.
Successor chapters for Space Wolves, easily explained, they don't conform to the Edicts of the Astartes Codex of Guilliman, they are exempt.
So they don't need them. There are without doubt 10 to 20 thousand operational Space Wolves in the Imperium.
The Fang, home of the Space Wolves, capable of housing 50-100k Space Marines and recruiting to that level from fenris alone.
Do you really think the Founding Legions loyal to the Emperor are only 1000 in strength, no REALLY!!!!!!!
Best kept secret in the Imperium, may the Emperor forgive me for telling you.
 

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They are not exempt from the Codex Astartes, they just ignore it.

As to the size of the Fang, yes, it's huge. However, in many of the 40k books that feature the Fang, it is mentioned that it is almost empty, and parts of it are falling into disrepair because they aren't being used. This would indicate that it's occupants don't come anywhere close to filling it's capacity.

You have to remember that the SWs were always one of the smaller legions. They then appear to have taken huge losses first in battle with the World Eaters, and then during the battle on Prospero, never mind what came after during their fight to get back to Terra. Then post Heresy they split their remaining strength in half in their one effort at creating a 2nd founding chapter. In the codex it also states that they've simply lost companies that have gone on a great hunt and never been heard from again. Take it up to the 41st Millenium, and they've fought in 2 particularly draining campaigns in which they committed a lot of their strength, the 1st war of Armageddon and the 13th Black Crusade, never mind the many common-or-garden campaigns and battles a SM chapter takes part in. When you add it all to the fact that the SW geneseed appears to have a higher than average attrition rate amongst recruits, it's logical that recruitment would not meet losses over the course of 10,000 years.

There's no doubt they number many more than the average chapter, but upwards of 10,000 is quite a stretch.

Do you really think the Founding Legions loyal to the Emperor are only 1000 in strength, no REALLY!!!!!!!
As a matter of fact, yes. The UMs, IFs, WS, Sallies, RG and IHs are all adherents of the codex, thus only number in or around the 1000 marine mark, with a few, like the Sallies and RG rarely reaching that number. This is fluff covered in many sources, most importantly the SM codex.
 

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They then appear to have taken huge losses first in battle with the World Eaters, and then during the battle on Prospero
Could you please point me to the battle between the WE and the SW that took place pre-Prospero, or is this something that happens between Prospero and the defense of Terra? I really enjoy the SW and have never heard of this one, although that's not saying much.
 
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