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Ehm Chompy you totally go up against fluff by suggesting that Empy had any control of where the pods landed. They all landed in shitholes, some worse than others. The only one landing in a place that could be called good was Roboute. Every Primarch was formed from the place he landed on. Remember the gods of Chaos spread the pods around mutating some of the guys (I'm just glad Alpharion and Omegeron didn't become one guy with two heads like an Ettin).

The geneseed of Leman Russ had some canine-things in them, I'm not denying that. But he was to be the Emperor's attack hound. He was mindless and singleminded which made him loyal but not endearing by any means. Though I'm unsure of how much that was from Earth and how much that was from the warp. I mean from the pictures I have seen of him, he seems perfectly human to me, without even the dog-nose of Goofy-fame.
I'm farily certain it was stated in the fluff that the emperor while unable to stop the vortex that took them was capable of influencing the pods in certain ways.
 

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Discussion Starter #65
And it also doesn't explain why the Terran marines could handle Russ's geneseed.
I believe Russ's geneseed wouldn't be entirely incompatible with non-Fenrisian recruits. The success rate would just be incredibly low. The success rate for Fenrisian recruits is already low enough, implanting non-Fenrisian recruits would simply be too cost ineffective.

You've also raised many good points as to why the wolf primarch lands on the wolf planet (the planet where early colonists experimented on themselves with wolf DNA), and the psyker primarch lands on the psyker planet...

I think the explanation has always been the Emperor was able to guide some the pods (some but not all...Angron for example got totally fu**ed). An even more basic question would be "how did all 20 pods land on habitable planets?" Why did none of them wind up in a star or in some remote empty region of space or on an alien planet.

My theory is that the Emperor was able to guide some of the pods and Chaos guided the remainder. Neither the Emperor nor Chaos wanted the primarchs to die. Both sides viewed them as assets.
 

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If that was the case the Legion would not have been feasible from the get go.
With the Emperor's oversight I expect the first batch would've been fine and depending on how quickly Russ was found recruiting might not have been an issue before then.
 

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My guess is that the Curse didn't become an issue until after Russ was found. Meaning, Russ' gene-seed was stable until his own genes somehow became affected when he arrived on Fenris. When he was discovered his Legion was able to use his gene-seed directly (like every other Legion) to increase the rate of Space Marine creation.

Russ was the second Primarch found. This would mean that, at his time of discovery, there were probably only a few thousand Space Wolves of Terran birth. This means that, as the Great Crusade went on, there were far more Fenrisian Vlka Fenryka made using Russ' modified gene-seed/the Canis Helix. By the time of the Scouring, any Terran Space Wolves (or, really, any Terran-era gene-seed) might have been destroyed.

That's the most logical answer I can think of, at any rate.
 

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Discussion Starter #70
If that was the case the Legion would not have been feasible from the get go.
Not really, it would just mean that before the discovery of Russ and Fenris, the SW legion were a small legion because of very low geneseed compatibility among Terran recruits

As far as I know, we have no idea how big the pre-Russ SW legion was.
 

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The Wolf Brothers, Second Founding of the Space Wolves, were able to hold together as a Chapter for ~800 years. I figure the imcapaility with the geneseed requires successive generations of non-Fenersian hosts.
 

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Not really, it would just mean that before the discovery of Russ and Fenris, the SW legion were a small legion because of very low geneseed compatibility among Terran recruits

As far as I know, we have no idea how big the pre-Russ SW legion was.
The problem I have with this is that you are speculating that the SWs were being inhibited by low numbers of successful initiates and those marines that fell to the curse. But they weren't.

Russ was found, presumably he spent a while getting his Fenrisian buddies into the Legion, and then off he went on his merry way with the Crusade. There's no mention that he had to do anything like Magnus did, sitting on his home planet for decades looking for a cure for his sons because the curse made them an non viable fighting force while everyone else was crusading. They had the numbers to get the job done, and then some.
 

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Well if the Wolfbrothers survived for 800 years before degenerating, one can speculate that that would have been the fate of any terran sourced marines as well. Had they lived long enough that be.


But let me throw out this thought. What if the Emperor purposefully -DESIGNED- Leman Russ to be extremely compatible with exactly the population of Fenris? Who knows, he might himself have been the cause of 'seeding' the genemanipulation knowledge with a wolfbent to the early Fenrisian colonists. That we know the early fenrisians modified themselves and that the Emperor blended Wolf dna in Russ' genome is a strong speaker for that idea.

After all the Emperor have an extreme level of precognitive abilities and a flair for long term planning. Such as bringing the Dragon to Mars to lay the framework for a Mechanicum 25.000 years in a distant future.
 

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But let me throw out this thought. What if the Emperor purposefully -DESIGNED- Leman Russ to be extremely compatible with exactly the population of Fenris? Who knows, he might himself have been the cause of 'seeding' the genemanipulation knowledge with a wolfbent to the early Fenrisian colonists. That we know the early fenrisians modified themselves and that the Emperor blended Wolf dna in Russ' genome is a strong speaker for that idea.

After all the Emperor have an extreme level of precognitive abilities and a flair for long term planning. Such as bringing the Dragon to Mars to lay the framework for a Mechanicum 25.000 years in a distant future.
Problem with that is it means that he would have had to have known the primarchs would have been scattered thousands and thousands of years in advance... so instead of doing that, why not just prevent the scattering to begin with? Or he did try and prevent the scattering and then influenced Fenrisian genetics as a backup measure and crossed his fingers, hoping Russ would eventually land there? I suppose one could argue that he might have had an incomplete vision of the future and simply known that he had to manipulate Fenrisian genetics for some reason, but possibly not why. Visions of the future can be vague like that. But like I said earlier, why would the Chaos Gods dump Russ on the one world specifically seeded to be able to carry his genetic legacy? Far too many "what ifs" for my liking when you start to follow that kind of reasoning.
 

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Problem with that is it means that he would have had to have known the primarchs would have been scattered thousands and thousands of years in advance... so instead of doing that, why not just prevent the scattering to begin with? Or he did try and prevent the scattering and then influenced Fenrisian genetics as a backup measure and crossed his fingers, hoping Russ would eventually land there? I suppose one could argue that he might have had an incomplete vision of the future and simply known that he had to manipulate Fenrisian genetics for some reason, but possibly not why. Visions of the future can be vague like that. But like I said earlier, why would the Chaos Gods dump Russ on the one world specifically seeded to be able to carry his genetic legacy? Far too many "what ifs" for my liking when you start to follow that kind of reasoning.

As I see it, the chaos gods wanted the Emperor to grow complacent and possess the galaxy for a while before they unveiled their master plan while he was blindsided by the webway crisis taking up all his time. So they let him have a few victories to make him think he really could affect the outcome of the long game.

And as they saw the primarchs as possible assetts that could be the turned to their ends, they might as well let Russ land on the prepared world where he would be able to sire the strongest and most powerful sons as possible. Khorne would be salivating at the thought of chaos turned Space Wolves. And those that have turned to the dark gods have been monsters.


Edit: And the Emperor have always been described as a precog. I see nothing wrong with predicting events thousands of years in advance. The necrons is capable of it.
 

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Problem with that is it means that he would have had to have known the primarchs would have been scattered thousands and thousands of years in advance... so instead of doing that, why not just prevent the scattering to begin with?
I hate to use something out of The Outcast Dead but it brings up an excellent point. There's a difference between being omniscient and omnipotent.

The Emperor could see what cards he was going to draw ahead of time, but you can't get a royal flush every time. Sometimes you have to settle for the best you can get. Sometimes that's just a two-pair.

Perhaps by avoiding the scattering some greater catastrophe would have occurred?

This is a very dangerous game to be playing, though. Since this can litterally excuse every mistake the Emperor made. Teleporting Angron and leaving his army of slaves to die? Part of a bigger plan. Unleashing the Space Wolves on Magnus? Part of a bigger plan. Horus mortally wounding him? Part of a bigger plan.

Dangerous, dangerous logic to play with.
 

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I hate to use something out of The Outcast Dead but it brings up an excellent point. There's a difference between being omniscient and omnipotent.

The Emperor could see what cards he was going to draw ahead of time, but you can't get a royal flush every time. Sometimes you have to settle for the best you can get. Sometimes that's just a two-pair.

Perhaps by avoiding the scattering some greater catastrophe would have occurred?

This is a very dangerous game to be playing, though. Since this can litterally excuse every mistake the Emperor made. Teleporting Angron him? Part of a bigger plan. Unleashing the Space Wolves on Magnus? Part of a bigger plan. Horus mortally wounding him? Part of a bigger plan.

Dangerous, dangerous logic to play with.
Exactly, so better to prepare a contingency for the mess you knew where comming. But not how it would be starting.
 

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Khorne would be salivating at the thought of chaos turned Space Wolves. And those that have turned to the dark gods have been monsters.
This is actually a good point. One could then argue that chaos is in fact the influence behind the Wulfen curse/mutation (because I seriously doubt the Emperor would intentionally want some of them to devolve into monsters). It might have been a ploy similar to the fleshchange of the Thousand Sons, to force a pact between the Space Wolves legion and chaos in order to prevent fatal degradation of the Space Wolf geneseed. But previous manipulation of the Fenrisian genestock dulled the Wulfen curse effect to the point where the legion could still function properly, with no need to make a deal with chaos to prevent total degradation. And it would also possibly explain why Terran marines didn't degrade either. If the Emperor was indeed responsible for the genetic experimentation on Fenris, he could very well have practiced similar manipulation on the Terran Space Wolf recruits during the implantation process. But eh, this is all just speculation and conjecture on my part and it still has a few holes in the logic.
 

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This is actually a good point. One could then argue that chaos is in fact the influence behind the Wulfen curse/mutation (because I seriously doubt the Emperor would intentionally want some of them to devolve into monsters). It might have been a ploy similar to the fleshchange of the Thousand Sons, to force a pact between the Space Wolves legion and chaos in order to prevent fatal degradation of the Space Wolf geneseed. But previous manipulation of the Fenrisian genestock dulled the Wulfen curse effect to the point where the legion could still function properly, with no need to make a deal with chaos to prevent total degradation. And it would also possibly explain why Terran marines didn't degrade either. If the Emperor was indeed responsible for the genetic experimentation on Fenris, he could very well have practiced similar manipulation on the Terran Space Wolf recruits during the implantation process. But eh, this is all just speculation and conjecture on my part and it still has a few holes in the logic.
I can never see Khorn as sneaky/plotting.
 
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