[Galahad]

Just to throw my two cents on the whole 'russ was raised by wolves' thing.

He could still have been raised by wolves...they just weren't wolves when they found him. Maybe they were perfectly normal (albieit gene-fucked like the rest of them) fenrisians...they raise up the future primarch, then the Emperor shows up and elevates all russ's homeboys to Marine status...and maybe a decade or so later the Curse starts showing up.

Now russ's mommy and daddy are doggies.
So russ was raised by wolves.
People see him with te wolves, he introduces them as his parents...who's gonna question the guy. Drunken roqwdy space vikings get in on a good joke and spin wild tales. The original truth gets forgotten.

 

[Galahad]

And I fail to see how people changing into wolves is all that improbable in 40k. People turn into horrible shit all the time. The only thing improbable is that they dont; have tentacles or scything talons.

We know kroot changed from birds into humanoids by sampling and changing their DNA all the time, why can't it go the other way around?

We know the geneseed process often has huge genetic repercussions, sometimes even interacting with latent psychic ability.
Super-magical messiah scientist emperor makes genetically tweaked super-children because he;s bored. He splices an extra dose of puppydog tails in with the regular snips and snails. Don;t forget the guy;s an omnipotent psyker...which in 40k is the same as being a wizard. He throws some magic in to make the whole quasi-science thing work.

Russ's magical wolfy geneseed has a bad reaction with the already heavily tweaked fenrisian DNA and turns the magical wolf genes into overdrive. The primarches are all pretty damned warp-touched between their magical daddy and their unshielded trips through the warp. Magic + screwy wolf DNA = Polymorph.

Wulfen are just stage 1. You get a space marine with jacked up fur and fangs and claws...then after a while if he doesn't die in battle he gets bigger...and stronger...and harrier. his fingers and feet grow into elongated dog legs, his face distorts and thanks to magic and fucked up wold DNA, he's a thunderwolf. He gets it on with another thunderwolf and a thousand generations later you got fenrisian wolves running around never knowing that their great great grampa used to be a dude.

Is it at all what was originally written or implied way back in the beginning of the game? no, but fluff changes all the time.
Tigris isn't half-eldar anymore, is he? Shit changes.

Ten years from now it;ll all be different again and people will be arguing that it's impossible for it to be the other way around.
It's only a game of plastic spacemen.

 

[Reaper45]

Bah that's a loser's argument Reaper, boo-fucking-hoo for you. Get a fucking grip.

The initiates becomes either Wulfen or Space Wolves, there are no two ways about it (unless they die on the way of course).

The 34 quote is the stupidest piece of argument I have heard in any of the rather retarded argument about brother riding brother Reaper, and that's a telling story as I have heard much insanity there.

The Grey Knights was just a conjecture-case and a wrapup of fluff nothing more.

So what are the wulfen?

 

[Beaviz81]

You are suggesting that not only does the Wulfen eventually change species but change gender as well Galahad? Ehm that's certainly bring a new and rather squicky meaning to brother riding brother in a meaning I only in my most humorous moments have touched. Though logic tells me that if they were to actually change species, then a gender-change for some wouldn't be that far off thought it would be interesting to see Grimgeir mounting Geirrød right before the important battle.

 

[Galahad]

<shrugs> Who knows man, you're dealing with freaky warpy space magic.
Besides, chromosome damage resulting in transgenderism seems a lot more plausible than "Turn into a werewolf"

Maybe it's not just people with geneseed, maybe generations of being with 'normal' fenrisians puts the wolf taint into the general populace. Daddy was a space marine, mommy had a genetic predisposition to wolfism, gives birth to puppies.

Who knows, these are vikings we're talking about here.
The same culture that had a male god polymorph into a female horse to prank some giants by leading away one of their giant workhorses...and then bore their freaky mutant octohorse to term and gave it to his dad as a mount. Technically, odin rode his grandson into battle

 

[MontytheMighty]

Man, this thread got derailed...

Plus you are deliberately ignoring my point, biology and evolution. And the real life logic point is pretty weak. Humans are there still, so are horses and such, gravity haven't changed. The only thing that has changed is the warp which in average seems to just mutate.

A lot of 40K doesn't conform to science. 40K isn't a hard sci-fi setting, it's a very soft sci-fi setting...more accurately described as space fantasy.

I'm pretty sure the Tyranids defy numerous principles of real-life biology.

How about Necron technology? Have you heard of the Celestial Orrery? 40K is not hard sci-fi which tries to adhere to the laws of physics as closely as possible, only tweaking a few things here and there. 40K is full blown space fantasy with its own version of magic (i.e. the Warp and a lot of silly unexplainable tech).

The Warp is magic. Eldar and Necron tech is magic. Tyranid biology is magic. Heck...Primarch, Astartes , Custodes, Imperial Assassin biology is magic. Try to explain their abilities and attributes with hard science. You can't...at least not with our current understanding

A lot of implausible Imperial and Dark Age tech is never explained and pretty much just works because the setting needs them to work. Again, you have to keep in mind that 40K is essentially a fantasy setting in space, maybe even less scientific than Star Wars.

I don't really agree that a SW marine is "changing species" when he chances into a Wulfen, but even if he were, I fail to see how that's absurd by 40K standards.

 

[Beaviz81]

But I thought Space Marine-jizz not to be good for you. I mean they spit acid and their blood is poisonous. I don't dare thinking what their the jizz are like. But then again Lukas landed a dozen broads in a single night. Then I usually crack a joke about calling the police.

As for the reason, it was quite good for Loki to turn into a horse. It was to prevent Freya from marrying a guy building a wall around the gods walling them in, they were under the impression they were walling everyone else out, he was also promised the sun and the stars. The workhorse (Gullfaks) did most of the work, so Loki distracted it and got pregged giving birth to Sleipnir (the eight-legged horse. As a bonus-point Odin was eventually devoured by another grandson (Fenris) during Ragnarrok.

 

[MEQinc]

Maybe you should actually try to read my posts before trying to flame MEQ.

Flame? Really? Not a single ad hominem attack, calm tone, polite(ish) language and reasoned out explanations. If you want to see an attempt at flame you should read over your own posts (like I did)

Bah that's a loser's argument Reaper, boo-fucking-hoo for you. Get a fucking grip.

That right there, that's an attempt at flame. Don't actually address his argument (or mine) just get up in his face, call him a loser and tell him to get a grip.

The initiates becomes either Wulfen or Space Wolves, there are no two ways about it (unless they die on the way of course).

There's nothing to suggest the hairy beast-man is the final stage of the wulfen mutation but there is fluff that states that Space Wolves can turn into 'wolves'. That suggests that the imitates that become wulfen can eventually change further into wolves.

The 34 quote is the stupidest piece of argument I have heard in any of the rather retarded argument about brother riding brother Reaper,

Why? What's so stupid about it? Show us why we should change our minds, Beaviz, yelling insults at people isn't going to do that.

 

[Reaper45]

You are suggesting that not only does the Wulfen eventually change species but change gender as well Galahad? Ehm that's certainly bring a new and rather squicky meaning to brother riding brother in a meaning I only in my most humorous moments have touched. Though logic tells me that if they were to actually change species, then a gender-change for some wouldn't be that far off thought it would be interesting to see Grimgeir mounting Geirrød right before the important battle.

Clown fish can become female if the colonies females are none existance.

So yes swapping gender is possible.

Right now we are only limited to what is ethical to do. Soviet scientists tried to make super soldiers by combining ape DNA with human.

Why is it a stretch for the emperor to create his executioner with wolf DNA to become fierce and loyal.

 

[Galahad]

But I thought Space Marine-jizz not to be good for you. I mean they spit acid and their blood is poisonous. I don't dare thinking what their the jizz are like. But then again Lukas landed a dozen broads in a single night. Then I usually crack a joke about calling the police.

Don't Sallies take wives? Hard to recall.
Obviously space wolf spunk gives you werewolfism, so it must not be totally safe.
Plus of course, saliva is used to aid in digestion for normal people, and there are blood-borne/vectored pathogens that aren't sexually transmitted too, so there's cases where blood can get you sick but not other fluids.
And of course, those things were intentionally done to weaponize space marines...there's no reason to mess around with their junk so unless it;s specifically stated as being altered it's best to assume it's normal.

As for the reason, it was quite good for Loki to turn into a horse. It was to prevent Freya from marrying a guy building a wall around the gods walling them in, they were under the impression they were walling everyone else out, he was also promised the sun and the stars. The workhorse (Gullfaks) did most of the work, so Loki distracted it and got pregged giving birth to Sleipnir (the eight-legged horse. As a bonus-point Odin was eventually devoured by another grandson (Fenris) during Ragnarrok.

I'm aware of the backstory...but there's a world if difference between 'seducing and leading away' the horse (after which point, he could just turn back into a god and take the damned thing's reigns and tied it up somewhere) and doubling down by letting the horse rail you for a while...and then deciding to stay as a female horse long enough to give birth to a mutant horsebaby.

Loki could have cut and run at any moint in there, but he really wanted to give Odin the weirdest fathers day present ever.

So, yeah. Vikings + magic + sex = OMGWTF?!
I have zero trouble believing that a bunch of gene-altered magical space vikings ended up having dogbabies. That makes absolute sense to me.

 

[Phoebus]

Well-reasoned points, gentlemen, but they miss the thrust of Beaviz81's argument.

Beaviz81 read that part of 'Prospero Burns' and thought to himself: "That's ridiculous. I don't like it. It disputes the Codex, which is what I like."

My guess is that the next step he took with that train of thought was: "What line of reasoning can I use to justifiably ignore it?"

At this point, insert the arguments he's presented thus far:
1. Lycanthropy in fiction is possible despite being biologically impossible in real life, but becoming a whole new species is too impossible.
2. A statement delivered without humor becomes a joke.
3. There's no real connection between what is expressed by Longfang and a Primarch who can see DNA much like Keanu Reeves can see code in 'The Matrix'.

Bottom line, I don't think you can convince Beaviz81 to change his mind because I doubt this has anything to do with what that novel said... or any of the ways that it could logically be reconciled with the Codex. I think it's a matter of taste, pure and simple. You may as well be trying to convince him to accept chocolate despite the fact that he hates it.

 

[Wookiepelt]

Clown fish can become female if the colonies females are none existance.

So yes swapping gender is possible.

Didn't they use that in the first Jurassic Park movie to explain how the male-only dinos (Raptors?) bred outside of controlled lab conditions on the island?

 

[Galahad]

Problem is, that's not how *he's* presenting it. it's not him saying "I don't like this because..." end everyone else trying to convince him to like something he doesn't...it's him saying "the current fluff is factually incorrect and anyone who supports it hates space wolves"

which is literally what he said. anyone who goes with the 'sw turn into wolves' theory is just a hater.

if it's one person expressing his dislike, then fine. A man has a right to his opinion.

but when you try stating your opinion is fact and that the other side is not just wrong but actively hates the chapter...that's not something you just wave off.

he may never be convinced, but there's a certain obligation to the truth which requires people who know better to counter when someone says something that is untrue or tries to claim something else is untrue when it isn't

 

[Phoebus]

I get where you're coming from.

 

[Brother Lucian]

With that said it might be good to let this rest, or we are just talking in circles.

 

[Beaviz81]

I shall be honest before this year I thought only flamers went for the theory that the Wulfen turned into wolves, and some of that lingers as I still have to see reason behind stuff except a few lines in a book contradicting in my mind the fluff in the codex. That's my taste and as Phoebus points out it's difficult to change my taste as it's unprecedented in any fantasy-realm (except one and there it only were a temporarily thingy). Plus it's how you perceive hearing hooves, I went for the simpler example, and yeah I admit until a Space Wolves codex comes out telling me that some Fenrisian wolves were once humans I will be clutched to the notion that humans turning into wolves won't happen. It's a matter of hearing hooves and what you think. I think horses, you for all manner of reasons seem to think wolves. My rating of fluff will always be codex > BL-fluff > fluff from other sources like forge World > authors in interviews > fanfiction.

And we already have wolf-like humans. Haven't you heard about the Mexican wolf-boy? Will he turn into a wolf? You already know the answer to that. I think the same way with the Wulfen. They would only turn into werewolves which we already sort of have in our midst, minus the urge to feast on human bodies and superstrength.

 

[Chompy Bits]

And we already have wolf-like humans. Haven't you heard about the Mexican wolf-boy? Will he turn into a wolf? You already know the answer to that. I think the same way with the Wulfen. They would only turn into werewolves which we already sort of have in our midst, minus the urge to feast on human bodies and superstrength.

Are you seriously using someone who has Hypertrichosis in an argument about a fictitious universe set tens of thousands of years in the future?

Leman Russ's genetics are known to incorporate canine DNA. Hypertrichosis has absolutely nothing to do with having canine genetics. One guy who had the same condition was called the Lion-faced man, and one female with it the Monkey Girl. So I cannot see how him and his condition is even remotely relevant to this discussion. Trying to compare him with a Wulfen is quite frankly ludicrous. Some people also call him the Monkey Man. Others probably call him the Wolfman because calling him "Cousin Itt-Man" would get them a major lawsuit.

But anyway, back to the OP question. I honestly think the Space Wolf successor thing has been poorly handled so far. I mean the Wolf Brothers were originally members of the Space Wolf legion and were never under any threat of the whole lot of them falling to the Wulfen curse. But go and settle on another planet and suddenly their genetics go ape shit? And we can't even blame some spooky, mystical connection to Fenris. Because then any Wolves away from the planet on long campaigns, or for example the Wolf Blades who serve on Terra, should have all devolved at some point. The 13th Great Company have been away from Fenris for who knows how long, yet they are still a functional combat unit. Sure, it is noted that there are significant amounts of Wulfen among them, but running around in the Eye for potentially thousands of years is likely to screw with someone's genes.

Now some could argue that the geneseed only works on Fenrisians, but then it would mean that the Emperor had to have intentionally let Russ land there. Which given how Magnus for example landed on a planet full of psykers could be worth considering. But then why did Angron, Curze, Mortarion etc. land on such shitholes? Unless the Emp tried to direct where his sons would land but could only manage to do it with some of them. But then that would mean that the Emp would have been involved in influencing Fenrisian genetics, and he'd only do so if he knew he would need a reason to do so. Which means he would have had to have known about the scattering thousands and thousands of years before even creating the primarchs. Which is really pushing it. But anyway, that's a hole other can of worms. And it also doesn't explain why the Terran marines could handle Russ's geneseed.

 

[Brother Lucian]

A related comment:
Roboute Guilliman - Lexicanum

Roboute's arrival on Macragge was a portentous time, and many reported strange sights. Most notably, Konor dreamed of the Emperor, and found himself beside Hera's Falls in the Valley of Laponis. Upon awakening, Konor assembled his bodyguard and rode to Hera's Falls, where they found the child. The name Konor gave the child, Roboute, means "Great One".


Edit: Regarding precognitive abilities:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Orikan
He predicted the the Fall of the Eldar, the rise of the Imperium, the Horus Heresy, and the coming of the Tyranids, many thousands of years before each came to pass. He can even divine lesser occurrences such as the destinies of individuals and the movement of fleets.[1]

 

[Beaviz81]

Ehm Chompy you totally go up against fluff by suggesting that Empy had any control of where the pods landed. They all landed in shitholes, some worse than others. The only one landing in a place that could be called good was Roboute. Every Primarch was formed from the place he landed on. Remember the gods of Chaos spread the pods around mutating some of the guys (I'm just glad Alpharion and Omegeron didn't become one guy with two heads like an Ettin).

The geneseed of Leman Russ had some canine-things in them, I'm not denying that. But he was to be the Emperor's attack hound. He was mindless and singleminded which made him loyal but not endearing by any means. Though I'm unsure of how much that was from Earth and how much that was from the warp. I mean from the pictures I have seen of him, he seems perfectly human to me, without even the dog-nose of Goofy-fame.

 

[Chompy Bits]

Ehm Chompy you totally go up against fluff by suggesting that Empy had any control of where the pods landed. They all landed in shitholes, some worse than others. The only one landing in a place that could be called good was Roboute. Every Primarch was formed from the place he landed on. Remember the gods of Chaos spread the pods around mutating some of the guys (I'm just glad Alpharion and Omegeron didn't become one guy with two heads like an Ettin).

Which is why I ended by saying that if you follow that logic it becomes quite a stretch. I was trying to highlight how poorly explained the degradation of the Space Wolf geneseed outside of Fenris has been handled so far. Cuz some people have suggested it only works on Fenrisians, which means that it was an astronomically lucky coincidence that Russ happened to land there. Hell, why would the Chaos Gods dump Russ on the one single world that has inhabitants who can accept his geneseed without suffering rampant and uncontrolled mutation? Not to mention how Wolf Brothers who were probably also Fenrisians fell so rapidly to the Wulfen curse after resettling on another homeworld. And thinking about it, the Chaos Gods probably dumped Magnus on Prospero exactly because he would not only be free to explore his psychic powers without restraint, but also develop the level of arrogance in his own abilities that would eventually lead to him defying the will of the Emperor.

As for the Alpharius comment, it'd be pretty hilarious if a Vindicare was sent after a two headed primarch.
"Ok, I seen him... errr... them... errr... whatever. How do I proceed?"
"Shoot him in the head."
"But which one????"