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Deathwing Commissar
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Changing species is not something I consider possible in any realm of fantasy, least of all the realm of 40k., ...
Here's the thing...

If you, Beaviz81, were to say, "Changing species is silly. I don't think it works well for the Space Wolves," I'd offer you a golf clap. I might say, "such is life," without a shred of sarcasm because that's your opinion, and you're one hundred percent entitled to it.

When you say, "Dan Abnett is wrong in saying via one of his characters that Brom turned into a Fenrisian wolf," however, and your reasoning for this is "it's not possible due to biology," then you've exited the realm of opinion. You've entered a very interesting part of the literary world, wherein you opt to ignore what the author has presented before you and are exercising your right to interpret the material in a way different than what he had intended.

(I'm not being sarcastic. This is not a unique thing, and it's been a topic of debate for some decades now... but generally speaking those talking points have not been about an intellectual property that - besides novels - aims to construct a more-or-less stable fictional universe that is to be shared by a number of different authors.)

... but people seem to be totally fine with that, despite it's the only example in the fiction. I mean people doesn't change into something else. Try finding one occurrence where anyone else have turned into animals without suffering a polymorph. Had it been a common occurrence I would have agreed with you, but this is unprecedented.
Even if this was somehow unique (and it's not, as Chompy Bits showed), what does it matter? Going by your criteria, any "first" should have been rejected out of hand.

'Superman'? Since when do human beings come from other planets and possess super powers granted by our sun? 'From the Earth to the Moon'? What was Verne thinking? How is one to get to the moon by being shot into space by a giant cannon? The 'Star Wars' prequels? Can an order of space-knights really be empowered by psychic bacteria that grant them powers like telekinesis and telepathy?

The idea that a genetically altered superhuman could mutate into a wolf-that's-not-a-wolf on account of his super-organs coming from an even greater superhuman with built-in canine material hardly even scratches the surface of all the impossible things 40k entails.

At any rate, you're rejecting this premise because it strikes you as new and/or unprecedented, but that in no way means that it's not happening in this material. Quite simply, the author has been about as blatant as he can be (given the context of the story and the themes of the series in general) in telling you what's up... but you don't like it. Again, that's fine... but it doesn't mean it's not happening.

I draw a line between wolf an werewolf, citing biology.
No offense, but how is that relevant? You claim that you're citing scientific principles, but what you're really doing is just stating your opinion. That opinion is that some things that are impossible in the real world can happen in science fiction, but some can't. Science in the case of Brom the once-Space Marine matters about as much as it does when determining the Navigator's third eye, or the metaphysical nature of the Warp. None of it is real, and none of it is ruled by real science. That you reject some of it doesn't preclude the author from writing about it.

It's okay you don't like the Space Wolves I accept that, ...
Oh, wow. It's kind of off-putting when you assume people are being dishonest with you about what they like and don't like.

Plus wolf and human are million of years inbetween, human and Ogryn and Ratling is a stretch but it's a logical stretch I accept as 30.000 years can see that happen in a bit of a stretch. That's mainly why I totally dismiss it, plus Wulfen are mutants, not people turning into wolves they only turn wolf-like with bodies like Burrito Bison. Biology just doesn't work that way.
Again, you're trying to inject real biology in a science fiction setting. Biology doesn't allow for a super-psychic person to live for 38,000 years. Biology doesn't explain how said immortal ruler is able to combine technology and (possibly) magic from a parallel universe to create twenty super-beings. Biology doesn't explain how he could use those beings to gather self-replicating genetic material that can be turned into eighteen organs capable of making a human being into a superhuman warrior.

None of that is possible by biology as we know it, but you choose to accept it as plausible. Hence why it's disingenuous to argue that Abnett and McNeil's concept with the Fenrisian wolves is impossible on the basis of biology. Both concepts are impossible to begin with.

Similarly, we're not talking about wolves at all. A recurring theme in these stories, in fact, is that these aren't wolves at all. The only reason why this conversation is about wolves is because you choose to pretend that McNeil and Abnett are perpetuating a hoax vis-a-vis two characters from two opposing factions. Your argue that one of those two characters (Magnus) is lying, and that the other - who has no reason to trust or believe Magnus - chooses to make a joke about the very same thing.

All this, absent any supporting evidence...

I assume everyone to think Space Wolves to turn into wolves to be haters.
That's quite a paranoid position. In this case, you're assuming someone who simply takes Abnett at his word - absent any evidence to the contrary - hates Space Wolves?
 

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Cruel Commissar
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You are hitting my point home with the animorph. That's polymorphing which I earlier have taken into account. Plus I say Wulfen is another form of werewolves nothing else. That has been my point from the get-go. Plus you are deliberately ignoring my point, biology and evolution. And the real life logic point is pretty weak. Humans are there still, so are horses and such, gravity haven't changed. The only thing that has changed is the warp which in average seems to just mutate. And again mutations might turn you wolf-like like the mutagen of Teenage Hero Mutant Turtles. Splinter got turned into a rat-man, not a rat and that's basically how I think the warp can work as well as there are plenty of in-game examples to that.

Magnus is the arch-enemy there is no two-ways about it. I mean you don't become friendly with the guy that want to kill you and advises daddy to do so. As for my supposed hatred of him. Not there, but I admit my love of the Space Wolves colors my viewpoint. If anything I pity Magnus as he now serves as target-practice for the second-most powerful mythological weapon and Ragnar.
 

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You are hitting my point home with the animorph. That's polymorphing which I earlier have taken into account. Plus I say Wulfen is another form of werewolves nothing else. That has been my point from the get-go. Plus you are deliberately ignoring my point, biology and evolution. And the real life logic point is pretty weak. Humans are there still, so are horses and such, gravity haven't changed. The only thing that has changed is the warp which in average seems to just mutate. And again mutations might turn you wolf-like like the mutagen of Teenage Hero Mutant Turtles. Splinter got turned into a rat-man, not a rat and that's basically how I think the warp can work as well as there are plenty of in-game examples to that.
Well, Phoebus has handled the using real life logic bit pretty well in his last post. Things like space marine organs, navigator genes etc. are all way beyond modern understanding of biology. And the other problem is you continuing to cling to the idea that the Fenrisian wolves are real wolves.

Just assume they are NOT real wolves. In a setting where all the things Phoebus mentioned previously are not just possible but well established, don't you think it's possible that the warriors carrying the genetic legacy of a warp-energy fueled (40k magic), modified-with-canine-genetics, demigod can devolve into something that simply greatly resembles extremely large wolves.


Magnus is the arch-enemy there is no two-ways about it. I mean you don't become friendly with the guy that want to kill you and advises daddy to do so.
Yeah, except that is rubbish. Russ wanted Magnus's use of psychic power censured, that's it. And this all happened long after said conversation where Magnus comments on the Fenrisian "wolves". Hell, he didn't even want to kill Magnus when he was sent to Prospero. We see that he was still trying to reason with him and get him to surrender peacefully (sadly he was getting trolled by chaos so it was a pointless effort).
 

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Cruel Commissar
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Ehm Phoebus seems to confuse biological technology with biology. I mean there is a difference in growing a new spleen in a vat, and morphing into a wolf after far too few generations. The Space Marines are sort of plausible as stem-cells can be used to grow things already. And it's the far future, I assume everything to be explained by dark use of stem-cells just like IRL. Just here they must wait for the babies to be formed due to mutations that can occur on the way we are after all talking about a hellish place where only some exposure of the warp can get twisted in the most unfortunate way.

Horus convinced Russ to take it by force, yeah we know that history. I'm just pointing to that Russ and Magnus didn't go well along as Russ had the ear of Empy despite being a mutant himself. But then again I regard the Space Wolves as hypocrites when it comes to the warp as they uses it themselves, but their Rune Priests has a purer access to it which means the hypocrite is right in the setting.
 

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Dazed and confused.
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1) SW geneseed only works with Fenrisian recruits
Explain how the Legion was founded on Terra then. Terran recruits also suffered from the curse of the Wulfen, and have done since the founding. It didn't just appear when they got to Fenris, so we can't say the geneseed works exclusively on Fenrisians, or they are affected exclusively by the curse.

Fenrisian wolves are not real wolves.
Nope, they are a genetic conglomeration of various different species who's DNA has been used to create a species tough enough to survive on Fenris. In fact thunder wolves are described as being genetically closer to rhinos than Terran wolves. This is all stated as fact in the codex. What is not stated anywhere is that SWs who have fallen to the curse become full blown wolves. Besides, how would a SM that has been implanted with unstable genetic material with canine traits turn into a creature more closely related to a rhino than a wolf?

I think people are taking some of the stuff insinuated in the books too literally. When Longfang says there were no wolves on Fenris until the legion got there, he is technically right, but the SWs themselves are the figurative wolves he is referring to, the new ultimate predator on a world of predators, as opposed to a genetic flaw leading to a new mongrel breed of human/wolf creature that didn't exist before their arrival.
 

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I won't touch on the plausibility of humans transforming into wolf-like beings beyond stating that Phoebus completely and thoroughly covered it. It's a sci-fi universe with rules that may not be consistent with how we believe the universe works.


3) It seems that there can't be more than one chapter based on a single planet
I think beyond the fact that it would be too easy to start building mini-legions is that there aren't all that many Space Marine Chapters to go around. Think about it--we see about, maybe, 150 planets in a sector. Some sectors significantly less (just a handful of planets). That's still ~6667 sectors if the average inhabited planet count is 150. That means, on average, each Chapter has to cover 6.67 sectors. Then you run into situations like the Cadian Gate and the Maelstrom--situations where you have a crap ton of Chapters within a relatively small area. This spreads the remaining Chapters even further.

You simply can't afford to concentrate that many Space Marines on a single system, I think. Or rather, not on Fenris.
 

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Deathwing Commissar
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Ehm Phoebus seems to confuse biological technology with biology.
There's no confusion, I assure you. Rather, as I've stated quite a few times already, I disagree with the idea that our understanding of biology plays a role in interpreting a science fiction story featuring technology that transcends our limitations.

In fewer words, your argument is that it's impossible to do something using tools and technology that are impossible for us to define. The problem, though, is that you can't logically support such an argument since we don't know the limitations of the means by which we would arrive at the result.

And it's not as if the Fenrisian wolves would be the only creatures to suffer such bizarre mutation:

"... something bloated and white and huge lay on the floor. Its legs looked more like flippers, its arms like tentacles. But the face appeared human and it had three eyes, one in the middle of the forehead that looked suspiciously like that of a Navigator.
...
'These things were Navigators?' said Ragnar, appalled.
'They are Navigators, very old ones, very wise ones.'
'They are mutants.'
'As are we all!'
'But you look...'
'I look more human. It makes no difference. If you live long enough and are exposed to the warp often enough, this is what happens. It’s the price that we pay so that humanity can have star flight.'"
Did the Emperor intend for this sort of mutation? Probably not, just as he probably didn't intend for the Blood Angels to develop the Red Thirst. It could very well be that the entire Curse of the Wulfen - and the subsequent transformation that eventually afflicts those that succumb to it - is a result of Leman Russ being sent through the Warp.

Perhaps, for instance, the Space Wolves did not have to worry about mutations until they reunited with Leman Russ. Then, much like every other Legion, the Primarch's genetic material was used directly - except his innate canine genes (see 'Deliverance') had been affected by the Warp and/or Fenris itself. This, in turn, led to the Space Wolves developing the Curse of the Wulfen.

Don't get me wrong. Everything I just proposed in that last paragraph is nothing but conjecture on my part. I would argue that what I proposed is actually believable within the structure of the stories that have been told both in the Codex and the novels... It's better than simply saying "it didn't happen, because I choose to ignore some of the many impossible things shown in this setting."

Explain how the Legion was founded on Terra then. Terran recruits also suffered from the curse of the Wulfen, and have done since the founding. It didn't just appear when they got to Fenris, so we can't say the geneseed works exclusively on Fenrisians, or they are affected exclusively by the curse.
This is just conjecture on my part...

Leman Russ was the second Primarch found. I don't know how long it took for the Wolf Brothers to mutate after being apart from Fenris. Is there any chance that the time it took for the VI Legion to reach Fenris was shorter than the time it took for the Wolf Brothers to manifest their gene-seed mutation?

Nope, they are a genetic conglomeration of various different species who's DNA has been used to create a species tough enough to survive on Fenris. In fact thunder wolves are described as being genetically closer to rhinos than Terran wolves. This is all stated as fact in the codex. What is not stated anywhere is that SWs who have fallen to the curse become full blown wolves.
See the quoted part from 'Prospero Burns' in my post on page 2. It's part of the ongoing discussion I have going on with Beaviz81.

Besides, how would a SM that has been implanted with unstable genetic material with canine traits turn into a creature more closely related to a rhino than a wolf?
If you're asking me whether Graham McNeil and Dan Abnett (both of whose relevant novels were published in 2010) contradict background information shown in Codex: Space Wolves (published in 2009), then you're probably right.

I can't say for certain whether Phil Kelly intended for Fenrisian wolves to be anything other than really big, really dangerous wolves. I also can't speak for the reasoning Dan and Graham used. All I know is that the former strongly implied that there was something unnatural going on where the "not-wolves" of Fenris were concerned, and that the latter has a Space Wolf blatantly state that at least one of his battle-brothers turned into a Fenrisian wolf over a period of two decades.

Cheers,
P.
 

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Deathwing Commissar
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I think beyond the fact that it would be too easy to start building mini-legions ...
That's a function of indoctrination, though - not due to population limitations.

I do agree with you, though. Even if it is possible, it doesn't necessarily make sense for multiple Chapters to come from the same world.

Probably the only way that could work is if you had some sort of "Crusade System": a mini Ultramar complete with its own Forge World, whose purpose is to churn out a brand new Chapter and its fleet ever so often. Said Chapter would of course be a Crusading one.
 

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The warp did it, nuff said.

The space marines and the primarchs have an absolutely heavy dose of warp energy at their core. And funny things results when things go awry. I always though the fenrisian wolves were fully mutated wulfen released into the wild. The majority of them having gone completely feral and serving as a perfect training opponent to hunt.

Few of them might have dim recollections of the space wolves and proving to be trainable as mounts.


Edit: Infact this reminds me of 'The Fly' movie I saw many years ago. A scientist developing a working teleportation machine. But one day a fly enters the transmit chamber and becomes mixed up with him. At the start he begins to develop amazing abilities, but soon he devolves. Eventually turning into a hideous giant fly-like monstrosity.
 

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Cruel Commissar
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That is down to interpretation Phoebus. Me and people agreeing with me thinks the Longfang said it to rile up the younger Space Wolf, and notes it goes up against the fluff of the Codex Space Wolves. You on the other hand seems to think it's the truth, and throws the Codex Space Wolves out the window. For me the rating-system is the Codexes first, the BL-fluff, then Forge Wolrd and such, then I guess what authors says, then maybe fanfiction but that I often blatantly disregard.
 

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Deathwing Commissar
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My only question then is what leads you to think Longfang is telling a joke to Hauser. Does the author offer a hint of it being a joke? Is it written that way? Does it even make sense that the author would use the same joke as something that Magnus said in an earlier book?

Or is this a case of pretending that Longfang is telling a joke because that's the only way his statement doesn't contradict the Codex (which is the source you prefer)?

Because, honestly, "it goes against the fluff" doesn't mean it's not happening. As I pointed out several times already: there are tons of instances where the old fluff has been disregarded for something different. Am I to assume that when you read 'Know No Fear' and saw that the Ultramarines had 250,000 Space Marines that you immediately disregarded that and pretended they had 25,000 (or something like that)? Because, no offense intended, that would start getting bizarre...

I'm genuinely curious.
 

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Cruel Commissar
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For me it seems to have been meant as a joke. A vet scaring a newbie. That's not uncommon and I have been on the receiving end of such a joke myself when I was a young and naive boy at workplaces.

And yeah my argument boils down to that he is joking or lying because if else a major re-write of fluff ought to happen if not. I go for the simpler solution which I find almost always to be the better solution. It's the writing-equivalent of I hear hooves I think of horses not zebras.

Some fluff can be countered. I mean the Ultramarines ain't alone in have a space empire anymore. The 23 chapters seems to be boiled up to 230 (most popular fan-theory) and such due to the Grey Knights being chapter 666 despite only around 400 chapters were around and kicking after the HH. But remember a codex is written from POV, and I think the Space Wolves would tell us if brother were riding brother. And I prefer to dismiss it as a loose rumor until it's blatantly stated in a codex.
 

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Fluff evolves, it never stays static. Dont commit the same mistake as the Ultramarines and stoically worship the 10.000 years old Codex Astartes, seeing any deviation as the utmost heresy.
 

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Deathwing Commissar
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Actually, Brother Lucian covered my points completely. Anything else would perpetuate a circular argument that's largely predicated on your tastes, Beaviz81. Carry on! :)
 

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Dazed and confused.
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I think the problem is that not even the authors are exactly sure what it means. When I asked Abnett at the BL Dublin event about wolves on Fenris, he said that he actually came up with that line, but due to his health issues at that time McNeill took it and ran with it. Abnett then tied back to it later.

This might not have happened as both books were supposed to be written at the same time, but then Abnett ended up having the benefit of reading ATS before he finished PB and working it into the story as well. I don't think we'll ever see it sorted out in print either, as it's not really a big deal, just a curious easter egg.
 

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You are hitting my point home with the animorph. That's polymorphing which I earlier have taken into account.
So, you want to see an example of people turning into animals that doesn't involve polymorphing, despite the fact that polymorphing refers to people turning into other things and thus automatically covers any instance of people turning into animals. Do you see the flaw in that logic?

I say Wulfen is another form of werewolves nothing else.
1) You realize that werewolves aren't real right?
2) If you're okay with werewolves in 40k then you should know that early werewolf stories have the man turn into a wolf. An actual, honest-to-goodness, literal wolf. Only relatively recently (I think it goes back to the earliest Wolfman movie and not much further) has the 'werewolf' become a man-wolf-thing (a "top-heavy guy" to use your term). So from that perspective turning into a giant wolf is no less plausible as a werewolf mutation than turning into a wolf-man is.

Magnus is the arch-enemy there is no two-ways about it. I mean you don't become friendly with the guy that want to kill you and advises daddy to do so.
Except Magnus says this before that happened. At the point at which Magnus examines the wolves there is no enmity between him and Russ and therefore no reason for him to make up slander. Never mind the fact that Magnus doesn't seem like the type to make shit up, what with his dedication to knowledge. He literally looks into the 'wolf' genes and sees something that isn't a wolf.

I draw a line between wolf an werewolf, citing biology.
I think this may be my favourite troll line of all time. :laugh:

I didn't realize that biology was perfectly okay with people turning into big, hairy mythological wolf-man hybrid creatures.

Of course biology would have a problem with people turning into wolves, that would be ridiculous. What ever will they come up with next: blood drinking imparting memories; 'genetic memory' of trauma so vivid you relive the past; digestive-guided-evolution... No, such folly would be out of place in 40k. :wink:
 

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For me it seems to have been meant as a joke. A vet scaring a newbie. That's not uncommon and I have been on the receiving end of such a joke myself when I was a young and naive boy at workplaces.

And yeah my argument boils down to that he is joking or lying because if else a major re-write of fluff ought to happen if not. I go for the simpler solution which I find almost always to be the better solution. It's the writing-equivalent of I hear hooves I think of horses not zebras.

Some fluff can be countered. I mean the Ultramarines ain't alone in have a space empire anymore. The 23 chapters seems to be boiled up to 230 (most popular fan-theory) and such due to the Grey Knights being chapter 666 despite only around 400 chapters were around and kicking after the HH. But remember a codex is written from POV, and I think the Space Wolves would tell us if brother were riding brother. And I prefer to dismiss it as a loose rumor until it's blatantly stated in a codex.
Didn't bother reading any of your other posts. After you attempted to bring real life biology into 40K my brain said not worth reading.

If you read the SW codex, you'd notice the section the tests of norkai where they become a SW or a feral monsters.

Secondly we should look at page 34 of the codex space wolf. That thunderwolf seems to have quite a few human facial features.

Finally the grey knights are chapter 666 because they are daemon hunters.
 

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Cruel Commissar
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Bah that's a loser's argument Reaper, boo-fucking-hoo for you. Get a fucking grip.

The initiates becomes either Wulfen or Space Wolves, there are no two ways about it (unless they die on the way of course).

The 34 quote is the stupidest piece of argument I have heard in any of the rather retarded argument about brother riding brother Reaper, and that's a telling story as I have heard much insanity there.

The Grey Knights was just a conjecture-case and a wrapup of fluff nothing more.
 
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