[MontytheMighty]

Obviously if the Codex Astartes were not in effect, the SW would be able to increase their numbers to well above 1,000 and designate the surplus number of marines as a separate chapter.

Is it because the canis helix is only compatible with Fenrisian recruits (and even when implanted into Fenrisian recruits, the success rate is still lower than the success rates of other primarchs' geneseeds)?

Was the whole point of the Wolf Priest's project in Battle of the Fang to modify Russ's geneseed so that the bodies of non-Fenrisian recruits would accept it? Therefore, SW successor chapters could raise recruits on their homeworlds instead of competing for Fenrisian recruits with the SW.

 

[Malus Darkblade]

I think BL has done a terrible job explaining the whole SW natives/non-natives bit.

We can't even speculate because the fluff is rife with inconsistencies on the subject.

 

[hailene]

This got me thinking...so only the Fenrisians are (supposedly) the only ones the geneseed works in. The Space Wolves can't create multiple Chapters out of a single home world, so the Founding of additional Chapters is impossible, right?...

Why not export the Fenrisians to other systems? Found new colonies. Create new Chapters from there (assuming the High Lords would give the okay...which lately is looking sorta iffy).

Bam, more Space Wolf successors, right? Sure, it might not fly with the High Lords, but it's worth a shot, right? They have all those Chapter Serfs that are willing to go through hell and high water for the Chapter. I'm sure they'd be up for living to some new cozy deathworld where 50% of the children don't live past 5. Just like home, right?

 

[Wookiepelt]

My take on this, having read both Battle of the Fang & Prospero Burns, is the it's all to do with the issue of the Wulfen curse. I believe that in the Battle of the Fang, the Wolf Priest's experiments was attempting to eliminate the effect of the Wulfen which was the causing the large number of losses during the final trial. Even after having passed this final hurdle to become a SW, there is always the potential that the Wulfen curse would surface during the heat of battle.

But according to Russ himself in Prospero Burns, his comment that there were no wolves on Fenris until the SW arrived kinda hinted that the whole SW cavalry division would not exist if not for the Wulfen curse (unless my interpretation of this is way off).

Hmm... what would this do if other worlds were subjected to the same process to harvest more candidates for the SW Chapter?!? Food for thought here...

 

[Beaviz81]

I would say you are way off. I mean the Wulfen are just werewolf-like creatures that happens to extreme cases of top heavy guys. I mean the thing about the Space Wolf riding Space Wolf likely comes from Prospero Burns where there were a dialogue between an young and an older Space Wolves. It ended with the older one telling the younger one that the wolf who had saved him was once a brother. I sort of think he is cracking a joke or Dan Abnett has misunderstood fluff. I hold the former to be more true.

As for the Canix Helix, well the mutation is unique for Fenris. Take it everywhere else and it would be diluted. That thanks to the Thousand Sons who of course holds a grudge against the Space Wolves.

 

[Phoebus]

Or Dan Abnett knew precisely what he was saying, which goes hand-in-hand with what Graham McNeil was alluding to in 'A Thousand Sons'.

Magnus tells you flat-out that there are no wolves on Fenris. He explains that, to survive on Fenris, the earliest human colonists experimented on themselves on a genetic level. 'Deliverance' later tells us that Leman Russ was modified with canine coding before even being whisked away to Fenris. Surprise-surprise, the Space Marines who carry the gene-seed Leman Russ display develop canine features. For those whose gene-seed fails, they actually become lycanthropes. Dan's comment re: a wolf that used to be a brother is simply the nail on a coffin crafted by what I thought to be some rather blatant innuendo! :wink:

 

[Durant]

For those whose gene-seed fails, they actually become lycanthropes. Dan's comment re: a wolf that used to be a brother is simply the nail on a coffin crafted by what I thought to be some rather blatant innuendo!

That is how I followed the hints between the two books also (TS and PB)

 

[Beaviz81]

Then Dan Abnett is wrong as I flatly refuse to believe that brother can ride brother into battle. It has no basis in fluff except quotes by unreliable narrators, and it's stated no-where in the Codex Space Wolves (there the Thunderwolves are a separate species). Plus it also goes up again biology, so people that supports that is going for wishful thinking and fanfiction, same as people who think the Dark Angels originally turned from the light of the Emperor.

 

[joebauerek]

I dont think it is impossible for them to create successor chapters..... they tried once... failed miserably and never tried again.... I think if they tried again they could find a way around problems. Just by the lack of trying i think the problem is intensified (i know the accident with the Wolf Brothers was a biggie) but other chapters have had problems with successors just look at the 21st founding.

As for the no wolves on Fenris thing... wasnt russ raised by wolves? Who by description could easily be thunderwolves.... Personally I think the no wolves on Fenris quote is more a description of the true monster.... the space wovles themselves

 

[Beaviz81]

Agreed 100 % joe. That's my take as well.

And I explained that one, the TS sabotaged it so the SW can't be feasible outside Fenris.

 

[Phoebus]

Then Dan Abnett is wrong as I flatly refuse to believe that brother can ride brother into battle.

Meaning no offense, but that doesn't really inform an opinion. You're by all means entitled to say you don't like what those authors did, but the above sentence doesn't exactly serve as a counterpoint to what the authors implied.

It has no basis in fluff except quotes by unreliable narrators, ...

Unreliable? :shok:

One of your two narrators is Magnus - who can see to the genetic core of creatures. The other is a Rune Priest of the VI Legion. Both of them give the same account over two books. How and why in the blue hell would Longfang assume Brom had turned into a wolf without any basis?

"'There are no wolves on Fenris.'
Hawser looked up. Longfang was standing beside him, staring at the wolf.
'That’s evidently not true at all,' Hawser replied in a tiny voice.
Longfang grinned down at him.
'Try to keep up, skjald. There were no wolves on Fenris until we got here.'"

That's exactly the sentiment Magnus expresses. So what, is Magnus repeating stories told by the Vlka Fenryka? Or are Rune Priests of the Sixth Legion prone to repeating stories told by Magnus? Neither. In 'A Thousand Sons', Magnus abilities allowed him to see a truth that the Vlka Fenryka had known (as evidenced by Longfang) but didn't openly advertise (for obvious reasons).

"Longfang looked back at the wolf.
'Twice he’s helped protect you,' he said.
'What?' asked Hawser.
'He had a different name last time you were in his company,' said Longfang. 'Then, he was called Brom.'"

What possible reason would Longfang have to fabricate this? And if he was somehow mistaken, how on earth would he have arrived at this conclusion? And if this WAS all a case of unreliable characters making a colossal mistake, then what's the point of TWO authors continuing it without even so much as HINTING that the characters are wrong?

Never mind that, again, the two "unreliable" characters involve a psychic Primarch with the ability to read DNA and a Rune Priest of the actual Legion dealing with the problems of the Canis Helix...

... and it's stated no-where in the Codex Space Wolves (there the Thunderwolves are a separate species).

Well, you might as well also claim that the Legions don't number 100,000 or more warriors... or that there was no Omegon... or that the events leading up to the Unremembered Empire never happened... or that the Thramas Crusade never occurred... or that the Space Wolves never called themselves the Vlka Fenryka... do I need to go on? I mean, none of those things are ever shown in the Codices, right?

The fact of the matter is that the material shown in the Codices at this point probably only constitute a fraction of what we've seen in the novels. More importantly, it's the Codices and the Index Astartes articles that were always told from the perspective of incomplete (and sometimes deliberately altered) archives maintained ten thousand years after the actual events.

Plus it also goes up again biology, ...

You mean like superhuman soldiers who take up canine features on account of the genetic material that they are infused with courtesy of a science project demigod? :wink:

... so people that supports that is going for wishful thinking and fanfiction, same as people who think the Dark Angels originally turned from the light of the Emperor.

It's not fan-fiction or wishful thinking when the author is spelling it out for you. :biggrin:

As for the no wolves on Fenris thing... wasnt russ raised by wolves? Who by description could easily be thunderwolves.... Personally I think the no wolves on Fenris quote is more a description of the true monster.... the space wovles themselves

You're conflating the mythology of Fenris as repeated ten thousand years after Leman Russ disappeared with what actually happened, as shown in the Horus Heresy novels. Fenrisians in 40k believe Leman Russ was raised by wolves. The Space Wolves that actually lived in that era state unequivocally that what people believe to be wolves are not wolves... and Longfang goes so far as to give you a specific example of that.

I get that everyone is entitled to their opinions... but we're talking about willfully ignoring the author to such a degree that you might as well ignore any part of the novel you'd like. Maybe it was really Horus that they fought at the end of the novel. I mean, just because they claim it was a daemon in disguise, that doesn't mean anything. After all, they're unreliable narrators, right? :wink:

 

[Vaz]

One day, the Emperor was watching some naughty video's sent to him by his mate Slaanesh on his laptop. Settling in for a good night, he shouted out to his ho's in the Sisters of Silence to get some beers, tissues and to turn down the lights. Cracking on the computer he settled it on his lap, when suddenly (!) he forgot what he was doing, and placed the internet reciever thingy on his balls after he pulled down his thong. The super high powered ultra fast broadband quickly began to cook his jewels, and unfortunately, this killed his fresh geneseeds reproductive capabilities.



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[Beaviz81]

I have told lies about the football-teams of my rivals getting it on in the locker-room. That applies to Magnus as well, he is king unreliable source as he is the arch-enemy.

Leman Russ was reared by a wolf, and a wolf as a canine creature nothing else.

As for biology. I have personally seen men covered in hair like some sort of gorilla, that's not a far stretch. Humans suddenly becoming wolves are simply a ridiculous stretch.

As for the longfang he can be reffing to the fact that they are Space Wolves, or just pulling the leg of the younger guy. I'm actually a bit baffled over the fact that people believes that Wulfen can change species as that's not how it is in the codex, and actually seems to be a bit of a rather I don't know sort of retarded standpoint.

Super-human soldiers picking up traits of something is kosher. The Wulfen is the logical extreme. They don't turn into something else as that's a too ridiculous argument for me to even consider listening to, and seethes of hatred towards the Space Wolves.

Authors can be mistaken like everybody else, just ask ADB.

 

[Phoebus]

Dammit, Vaz. I so wanted to rep you for that one!

I have told lies about the football-teams of my rivals getting it on in the locker-room. That applies to Magnus as well, he is king unreliable source as he is the arch-enemy.

And he just happens to tell the same lie as members of the Sixth Legion? That's convenient. I mean, what is Longfang thinking? Is he just an idiot that's repeating fake rumors invented by a Primarch they don't trust?

Leman Russ was raised by a wolf, and a wolf as a canine creature nothing else.

Nah. That's what a legend described in a Codex says. To the Fenrisians, who live 10,000 years after the time of Russ and whose legends are dominated by super-warriors with wolfish features, a myth of a Wolf King who landed on their planet and was raised by wolves probably makes sense. Our own mythology developed along similar lines.

As for biology. I have personally seen men covered in hair like some sort of gorilla, that's not a far stretch. Humans suddenly becoming wolves are simply a ridiculous stretch.

"Humans becoming super-powered post-human warriors with centuries-long lifespans" is a ridiculous stretch as well, wouldn't you say?

And besides, the Space Wolves aren't just "hairy people". They are individuals to whom the Canis Helix specifically imparts canine traits.

Incidentally, I honestly feel like I'm being trolled right now! :biggrin:

As for the longfang he can be reffing to the fact that they are Space Wolves, or just pulling the leg of the younger guy.

Oh, come on. Longfang summons a punchline that's two decades old to play a joke on Hauser? And the author doesn't so much as hint at it? And it just so happens that this "joke" continues a theme carried across two novels? Dear God, man, you're reaching now! :biggrin:

I'm actually a bit baffled over the fact that people believes that Wulfen can change species as that's not how it is in the codex, and actually seems to be a bit of a rather I don't know sort of retarded standpoint.

Well, that's quite the ad-hominem! If you want to roll that way, though, what would you call someone's standpoint if they ignore blatantly obvious narrative delivered by the author in favor of conjecture? Or, say, when one is baffled by the idea that a human could mutate into a wolf... but is completely kosher with the idea that he could mutate into a werewolf.

Would you have choice words for that?...

Super-human soldiers picking up traits of something is kosher. The Wulfen is the logical extreme.

Says who? How does the logic end there? No, don't worry - I get it. It's called opinion. I think kebabs are amazing, for instance, but you might think they're awful. Except it's not that kind of opinion-based contest. The author has spoken remarkably clearly; you simply don't like what he had to say.

And that's fine - you're completely entitled to your opinion that it's ludicrous for humans who become Space Marines with canine features and a propensity to turn into werewolves to later also turn into giant wolves. No one says you have to like it!

You can't, however, act like other people are retarded because they opted to go with what's been revealed by the new background material rather than making up something to feel more comfortable. :wink:

They don't turn into something else as that's a too ridiculous argument for me to even consider listening to, and seethes of hatred towards the Space Wolves.

Oh, the melodrama... I assure you, I'm not opting to take into account the fairly obvious information revealed by an author because I secretly hate a fictional group of super-powered soldiers.

Authors can be mistaken like everybody else, just ask ADB.

In order to take that angle, though, you have to show how the author is incorrect.

In this case, your sole argument is "It's ridiculous that they mutate into something other than lycanthropes," followed by "A Codex didn't mention what Abnett said." Both of those points are flawed, though. One rests on your unwillingness to entertain super powers that you feel are illogical given "biological" reasons (even though your own "logical" endstate exceeds what biology allows for). The other ignores that this entire series has been adding information not found in the Codices.

So again, I have to ask... Do you also claim that the Legions are still only made up of 10,000 Space Marines? Do you feel that Abnett hallucinated Omegon? Are battles mentioned in novels but not in Codices or old articles inapplicable figments of the authors' imaginations? Of course not.

Cheers,
P.

 

[MontytheMighty]

The Space Wolves can't create multiple Chapters out of a single home world, so the Founding of additional Chapters is impossible, right?...

Not sure if there's a rule against more than one chapter on a homeworld. Surely you could have two fortress monasteries on the one stable landmass or maybe even a land-based fortress monastery for one chapter and an orbiting monastery for the other?

As long as the command structures are kept reasonably separate...

Why not export the Fenrisians to other systems? Found new colonies. Create new Chapters from there (assuming the High Lords would give the okay...which lately is looking sorta iffy).

You'd have to make sure the Fenrisian colonists don't interbreed with non-Fenrisians. It makes sense that Fenris is kept so utterly isolated...interbreeding might dilute (and hence ruin) the Fenrisian genepool. It just seems like a lot of effort and trouble even if Fenrisians are sent to develop multiple isolated purestrain colonies. This might take several stages as Fenris has a pretty small population, and the SW better hope their enemies don't find out about this plan.

...I mean, the first loop-hole seems a lot more plausible (for instance, 3 chapters based on Fenris with separate command structures)...the Fang (Space Wolves), an orbiting fortress (the Wolf Brothers 2.0) and a fleet-based chapter that recruits cyclically (the...Wolf Cousins). Maybe even start cloning Fenrisians for implantation?

If there is a rule against multiple chapters based on one planet, I think the SW, out of all the Astartes lineages, deserve an exception.

 

[Beaviz81]

Changing species is not something I consider possible in any realm of fantasy, least of all the realm of 40k., but people seem to be totally fine with that, despite it's the only example in the fiction. I mean people doesn't change into something else. Try finding one occurrence where anyone else have turned into animals without suffering a polymorph. Had it been a common occurrence I would have agreed with you, but this is unprecedented.

I mean you are going up against rules with regards to any fantasy-realm. I mean in Baldur's Gate and such games I encountered Werewolves, they were still just top heavy guys, just as the Wulfen. They didn't magically change species, and sure the Space Wolves have Canis Wolfborn who should have by any means been just a feral kid never learning any table-manners or anything like that. He can speak wolf. That's the border of what I accept and he is extreme in the game.

I draw a line between wolf an werewolf, citing biology. You have yet to do anything but to flail about it in my opinion. It's okay you don't like the Space Wolves I accept that, but don't expect me to swallow your arguments about the Space Wolves becoming wolves. Plus wolf and human are million of years inbetween, human and Ogryn and Ratling is a stretch but it's a logical stretch I accept as 30.000 years can see that happen in a bit of a stretch. That's mainly why I totally dismiss it, plus Wulfen are mutants, not people turning into wolves they only turn wolf-like with bodies like Burrito Bison. Biology just doesn't work that way.

I assume everyone to think Space Wolves to turn into wolves to be haters. You have yet to convince me otherwise, other than trying to ridicule my point which for me points to you really hating them.

 

[Chompy Bits]

I would just like to point out... you go on this whole thing about people not being able to turn into wolves. And you could be right (and in a fantasy/scifi setting like 40k that is by no means certain, given some of the other crazy shit we have to swallow). Problem with your argument... it is cited various times that Fenrisian wolves aren't actual wolves. They might look like wolves, but they aren't. Why do you think various people keep saying "there are no wolves on Fenris".

Also, calling everyone who chooses to believe the Heresy series fluff over your opinion Space Wolf haters is remarkably immature.

 

[MontytheMighty]

It appears the whole issue is:

1) SW geneseed only works with Fenrisian recruits
2) It would be a pain in the arse to set up Fenrisian colonies on other homeworlds and maintain the genetic purity of these colonies
3) It seems that there can't be more than one chapter based on a single planet

I'm thinking some alternatives would be 1) shipping recruits from Fenris to successor homeworlds or 2) cloning excellent Fenrisian recruits

It seems that most SM chapters prefer to pick the very best physical and mental specimens from a sizable population. Therefore if the SW went the colony route, these wouldn't be small colonies. They'd have to establish pretty large colonies of at least a few million, otherwise they'd be limiting their successors to small selection pools.

I mean...I think having maybe 3 or 4 chapters based on Fenris would be the easiest way to go beyond the codex limit.

 

[Beaviz81]

I go for the Codex Space Wolves for fluff, had it been established there that the humans turned into wolves I would have bought the stupid arguments. Instead people comes to me quoting arch-enemy and such, plus they go up against anything I have seen in fantasy. I have never seen someone in any fantasy realm change species. I even throw in logic there, as the Wulfen are mutated humans nothing else, and yeah I'm as stubborn as any fan of the Space Wolves ought to be with a berserk button clicked.

And my logic is still to be dispelled, I mean you are going up against biology (a few million years even) and fluff with your attitude. That's not good. I go for the Codex Space Wolves, what do you go for? Loose gossip and rumors. That's like the 23 original chapters of the Ultramarines a rumor.

As for my so-called immature opinion. Disprove it. Whining about it, doesn't make you seem so fucking mature, hell it make you seem sore about I'm pointing out that you seem to dislike the Space Wolves. I have actually yet to see anyone claiming to like the Space Wolves profess such a viewpoint.

 

[Chompy Bits]

I go for the Codex Space Wolves for fluff, had it been established there that the humans turned into wolves I would have bought the stupid arguments. Instead people comes to me quoting arch-enemy and such, plus they go up against anything I have seen in fantasy. I have never seen someone in any fantasy realm change species. I even throw in logic there, as the Wulfen are mutated humans nothing else, and yeah I'm as stubborn as any fan of the Space Wolves ought to be with a berserk button clicked.

You totally ignore my point, nice. Fenrisian wolves are not real wolves. Also... do you hear yourself? Just because you personally have not seen it happen in a fantasy setting means it can't happen? Yeah, I'm just gonna ignore that... and link this instead... Animorphism - Television Tropes & Idioms

So even if they are humans turning into a different species, it is hardly unprecedented.

Also, to try and use real life logic to argue in 40k is about as sensible as trying to use a piece of spongecake to hammer a nail. There are numerous things in 40k, not just in terms of biology, that defy modern day logic.

And my logic is still to be dispelled, I mean you are going up against biology (a few million years even) and fluff with your attitude. That's not good. I go for the Codex Space Wolves, what do you go for? Loose gossip and rumors. That's like the 23 original chapters of the Ultramarines a rumor.

And the Codex is the definitive source of everything? You ignore what an actual Heresy-era Space Wolf character says, calling it rumors and loose gossip. You ignore fluff that comes from the actual era from a character living through those times. The Heresy series is the most up-to-date source of info we have on the Space Wolf background. Hell, one could argue that one of the main points of Propsero Burns is that it gives us a deeper insight into the Space Wolves. Tell me, do you still believe that Harek Ironhelm took out Magnus on his own? They don't mention all the other people involved in the fight in the Codex, it only becomes clearer in Battle of the Fang.

As for my so-called immature opinion. Disprove it. Whining about it, doesn't make you seem so fucking mature, hell it make you seem sore about I'm pointing out that you seem to dislike the Space Wolves. I have actually yet to see anyone claiming to like the Space Wolves profess such a viewpoint.

I was not whining. I was just pointing out that throwing personal attacks at people simply because they don't agree with you is not the most mature way to go about things, and is not going to help your argument in the slightest. I don't dislike the Space Wolves. I admit I don't care much for Leman Russ himself. But I can say the same about the Thousand Sons. I don't dislike them, but I think Magnus is a colossal tool. None of those facts have jack shit to do with my argument. Though, you do seem to like going on about Magnus the "arch-enemy" etc. even though this was pre-Heresy and the issues between the Wolves and Sons were far from mortal enemy territory. Hell, I could say, using your own argument against you, you simply don't want to acknowledge what Magnus says because you are a Magnus hater.