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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
See, i have a slight confusion with Tzeentch's position as a Chaos God... For one he doesn't actually seem very chaotic, seeing as it just plans and plans and never does anything.

Maybe it's because with the other 3; You can link to the worlds 'Evils' at the moment;

Khorne would represent: War, Hatred, Anger.
Nurgle would represent: Disease, Decay
and Slaanesh would cover Moral-evils: Rape, Paedophilia, Lies, Slander, and anything else that is quite obviously a sin of the Purple Pervert.

But Tzeentch...? I just can't see how he's in anyway deserving of his place in the big 4.

Anyone want to enlighten me?

ROT out.
 

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dont think about it to hard it hurts your brain
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Ambitoin,plotting and, change i think and also psychic powers
Ambition and Plotting aren't evil, and Change is only Evil if you are that was inclined. Because Change can be Good; where as Rape, War and Disease are horrific in the majority of angles it can be looked at.

No i'm not asking for a debate on whether War is good, Because I really don't want that argument; It's just seen as a horrific evil by most people.

And Psychic Powers are used throughout all armies.

What i mean by what does 'Tz' represent, is in terms of evils of our world.
 

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Grand Lord Munchkin
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He represents change, hope, human ambition, and so on. You're confused as to what the gods really are; emotion. The gods are human emotion taken to extreme and beyond.
 

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Well, you have to remember that the gods are not 'evil' in the general sense of the word.

I always consider Tzeentch to be the god of the gods.

Tzeentch feeds off change.

As i see it, that is the closest thing to the word 'chaos' and is possibly as opposite as you can get to the other big 3 in that they constantly seek the same sort of adoration and worship.
 

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Chaos isn't pure evil... However the Warp tends to erode anything resembling sanity or base humanity which means the resulting corruption tends to amount to the same thing where non-warp entities are concerned.

Still. Tz's plans tend to hold Not Nice Things for your average Imperium world/system/sector. Plus Knowledge tends to drive people insane.... and yea...
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
He represents change, hope, human ambition, and so on. You're confused as to what the gods really are; emotion. The gods are human emotion taken to extreme and beyond.
But surely the idea of Chaos is that they are the bad-guys. Which would roughly translate by Nerd-Law to them being evil. And I don't think Hope and Human Ambition are particularly a Negative emotion.
If anything, Ambition is a Good emotion... You have to remember that they aren't the 4 Gods in general
They are the 4 Gods of Chaos.

Well, you have to remember that the gods are not 'evil' in the general sense of the word.

As i see it, that is the closest thing to the word 'chaos' and is possibly as opposite as you can get to the other big 3 in that they constantly seek the same sort of adoration and worship.
But the Gods ARE evil, maybe evil is the wrong word, But they seek the demise and destruction of the Human race, for no tactical reason other than they want to see the IoM suffer and die.
That's Evil.
And again i disagree, If we're going to go by the actual definition of Chaos being:

–noun
1.
a state of utter confusion or disorder; a total lack of organization or order.


Planning and plotting, is the complete opposite of this. So I'm still convinced Tzeentch has no place in the Big 4, and with more and more discussion, I'm starting to not understand why he's a God of Chaos at all.

Still. Tz's plans tend to hold Not Nice Things for your average Imperium world/system/sector. Plus Knowledge tends to drive people insane.... and yea...
See that makes alot more sense... But I would also disagree to a certain extent. If Tzeentch's Link to the ideals of Chaos is that he doesn't like the IoM, then that's a really crap judgement for him being in the big 4.

I'm sure there is a Lesser-God, with a more Chaotic sense of evil, opposed to Planning, and Change.

I just don't see how he fits.
 

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they are supposed to be the extremes of human emotion.

Ambition can work both ways, a mans ambition can be as deadly as any plague, in the pusuit of his goal, a man can cause the other three to occur.
 

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Grand Lord Munchkin
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Good and evil are a matter of perspective.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
they are supposed to be the extremes of human emotion.

Ambition can work both ways, a mans ambition can be as deadly as any plague, in the pusuit of his goal, a man can cause the other three to occur.
Even if that's the case... Why is the God of Ambition; which you've established to be an ambiguous emotion- Representing 'CHAOS' as a member of the Big 4..
I can accept that some people will see Tzeentch as evil... But the my point remains... why is he in the Big 4?

Surely something like Pride or Tragedy would be related to Chaos more than Ambition and Hope.

Good and evil are a matter of perspective.
So unless you REALLY think Chaos aren't evil... then my opinions (which I stress are mine, and i'm not trying to make you believe them) would become relevant.
 

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One mans ambition caused a war that resulted in over 70 million deaths and attempted genocide
That being my point. :)

The other emotions go both way's. you can be overexcessive in trying to love and still harm.
 

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Tzeentch represents many things. He is worshipped as the god of lies, deceiving, cheating and about the twisted morbid reality behind every dream. Among them he is about mostly change. This is perfect because change itself has different aspects. In this sense Tzeentch is about psychology becuase he represents the dark half of every human soul, nay every living being. He cheats and lies to his victims so that this dark side is brought up and consumes their very soul. This is what makes him evil.
 

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But surely the idea of Chaos is that they are the bad-guys. Which would roughly translate by Nerd-Law to them being evil. And I don't think Hope and Human Ambition are particularly a Negative emotion.
If anything, Ambition is a Good emotion... You have to remember that they aren't the 4 Gods in general
They are the 4 Gods of Chaos.
They are the bad guys. As it happens, WH40K is an universe without any good guys, so they aren't exactly alone.

But the Gods ARE evil, maybe evil is the wrong word, But they seek the demise and destruction of the Human race, for no tactical reason other than they want to see the IoM suffer and die.
That's Evil.
The chaos gods themselves are highly irrational and destructive, but the concepts they're based on aren't meant to be evil (though some of them are) so much as tainted reflections of human emotion taken to illogical extremes. So from a lighter perspective big T is all about planning and knowledge, but in practice he's more of a paranoid and secretive deity who can never follow through with any of his plans.
 

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Grand Lord Munchkin
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@ROT,
I think they are evil, but they don't.
 

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Have you read Macbeth? (if not you should :biggrin:)

The witches are a spot on allegory for Tzeentch. Their manipulative words are vague and sparse, yet ignite dark ambition, fear and mania in Macbeth and those around him.

Tzeentch is like a child with a set of dominoes, carefully standing them on end and manoeuvring them into the right places, nudging them into order, always seeing the bigger picture - before slightly tapping the first and bringing them all crashing down.
 

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Surely something like Pride or Tragedy would be related to Chaos more than Ambition and Hope.
I believe that pride is in Khorne's jurisdiction, as is courage, and loyalty.
 

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Tzeench, like the rest of the big four represents the worst of humanity. Tzeench is complete and utter insanity, there is no rhyme or reason to what Tzeench does he just does it. Tzeench may one day bless you with the greatest psychic power the galaxy has ever seen the very next he could strip it away and leave you a gibbering wreck.
For this reason Tzeench probably represnts true Chaos better than the other three put together.
Nurgle, Tzeench's opposite, doesn't represent disease he represents stagnation and tradition. There's nothing evil about tradition until you take the concept as far as Nurgle.
There is nothing evil about hope, change or knowledge until you take it as far as Tzeench.
But evil is still the wrong word when describing the Chaos Gods, what they are transends the concept of good and evil.
 

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First of all, the Chaos Gods are not solely based on evil stuff. Slaanesh isn't just moral evils; she is also love, art, etc. It just so happens that the positive stuff she represents is so compressed it inevitebly twists and becomes evil. Love turns to obsession, appreciation for beauty into selfish hedonism, etc.

The same goes for Tzeentch. He starts with the good kind of ambition, but it gets twisted and by the end its the "I want to take over the universe and kill everything in my way"-kind of ambition. You start with wanting to improve things and end up with uncontrolable mutation.

Tzeentch is also the most paradoxial of the Chaos Gods. Out of them all he is the one who holds the most chaotic aspect (change) and the most orderly aspect (plotting).

Finally, what does it say about a universe if the dieties of love and hope are evil?
 
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