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I was reading a thread about whether Khaine's shards count as daemons, and I think the unequivocal answer is yes, but, if the shards are daemons, then, Khaine's a Warp God. Not chaos, just Warp, and on that note, it brings me to this thought process:

Here's what I don't get. GW seems to use the greek definition of Daemon as used in ancient mythos. A Daemon, then, was not a demon, but a spirit that could be evil or good, though Daemons back then lived in rocks, trees, animals and sometimes people. They seem to also utilize the concept of Demons (Christian, not chinese), where you must sacrifice something to bring one forth, and the Hindu idea that all their gods are really just smaller and smaller facets of their one god, Vishnu (I think he's the one at the top of the food chain).

To that end, it seems that a God, by GW standards, must be able to manifest daemons, spirits with its essence in which its will may be made manifest. The four Chaos Gods and the Gods of the Eldar seem to follow this, even the C'tan are a form of daemon, thanks to their gods only being able to impart a splinter of their essence to control the construct. Here's where it gets tricky.

Gork and Mork are both powerful Orky warp gods. They live in the warp, just as Chaos, the Emperor and the Eldar gods (aside from Khaine). They do not manifest daemons, and do not seem to interact in any way with the Orks or their enemies, except that they make guns dakka dakka when in the hands of anyone else, the weapon would be a useless disjointed piece of metal scraps. They don't quite fit the overall dimensional requirement for a god.

The Emperor is capable of fighting across the galaxy to drive back daemons, but the power is diminishing, and he is not able to be everywhere. The Emperor also does not utilize daemons. He has yet to create a single spirit or daemon in is image, and his soul is bound to a physical body that is shattered and decaying (strange. Khaine got vanquished to our world, the Emperor got vanquished to theirs).

How could either case, Ork or Man be considered to have a god that doesn't follow the template? Is the threshold for godliness that you have to be worshipped by an entire race, or at least a good enough portion? Or is there something more defining about gods that make them so?
 

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Technically, you could say that Living Saints are 'Daemons of the Emperor', in that they were once mortals, now imbued with a portion of The Emperors Divine Radience and powered by the faith in him...
 

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Which brings us to the quintessential question: Is the Emperor actually a god?

Or is he really only a very powerful entity? Remember has a strong presence in the warp, but he cannot control it (as a chaos god would).

IMO the Emperor should have already ascended to godhood thanks to the zillion worshipers across the Imperium. But there's never enough proof.

Now maybe something else is required for the emperor to achieve godhood... the thing is ...what?
 

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There is a God, formed from the soul of Emperor, but it is not fully born yet. Star Child is believed to rest within some star. It even have it's "champions", like Chaos Gods do - the sensei, descendants of Emperor himself. Or, at least, Lexicanum says so.
 

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If a being is undisputable in its power and cannot be harmed or destroyed in any real way, I would call it a god.

Chaos Powers:

Always existed, always will, fuelled by and able to gift their power to mortals and daemons alike. They are deities without a doubt.

The Emperor:

Born as a mortal. Extremely gifted and powerful, but ultimately fallible. Even if he becomes a warp entity following his death through worship, I would class him on par with a greater daemon lord or minor deity at very best. I doubt he will never reach the same level as the ruinous powers however, as they have millions of years headstart on him.

Gork and Mork:

They are described as existing in the warp, delivering suckerpunches to the chaos powers on occasion, but I am not sure how literally to take this. They may exist as described, but personally I doubt this. However, they are the focus of belief for all of orkiness, so short of exterminating the orks (good luck with that) there is no chance of killing them off. I would call them minor deities at least.

Eldar Pantheon: All dead or vanquished. Instantly disqualified. :p

C`tan:

Not warp entities to begin with, so they`re a completely different story.
Though they are the most powerful entities in the material universe, they can be killed. Not gods.




So, as I`ve said before, there are four gods and a bunch of wannabes close behind.
 

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Except your forgetting that the chaos 'gods' didn't always exist... Slaanesh for instance, only came about through the excess of the Eldar...

Plus, there have been many minor chaos gods which have died or been killed in past publications and fluff material... Sarr'Kell, Melkirth and Hashut for instance.
 

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Slaanesh was dormant for a few milennia as the Eldar sank into decadence. Plus time is meaningless in the warp. The chaos gods have always existed and never existed at the same time, they are synonymous with life itself.

That is why they are also known as the "Primordial Annihilator."

And the others are called "minor" for a reason. They didn`t have the power or strength to equal the others, and so they eventually perished. Therefore, they are not on par with the "real" gods.

There have been plenty yes, so what makes them any more special than any other daemon lord or prince? Nothing. I didn`t think they were even worth mentioning. That they call themselves gods is a mark of their own arrogance, or the misguided belief of their followers.
 

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I dont think any of the 40k gods have power on a scale of true life god/s (or what they are meant to have) but that in game.
Taking that as a start I think that the definition of a 40k god should be any soul/being that exists in the warp and who gains power from the worship of mortals. The ork, chaos and eldar gods all fit that description, but the Emperor is borderline. I think that for the Emperor to be classed as a god he would have to keep his power after his mortal form dies: if the worship of the imperium is enough to sustain him after death then he will have attained godhood... if he dies with his mortal form the he isnt. Based on what Ive read I think he'll survive in the warp after death, as he should be powerful enough to fight off any daemon that tries to eat his soul... but I'll be the first to admit that there is a lot of fluff I havent got round to reading yet.
 

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I think that in 40k a god is really anything that GW refers to as such.:so_happy:
 

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Given that GW refers to so many things as "gods," even though they vary wildly in nature, I think a different style of definition is needed. The C'tan are technically stellar organisms, yet they are refered to as Gods. The Chaos Gods are no more than a reflection of the evils of the human mind. You get the idea.

So, my personal idea is combat strength: The one thing that the remaining Eldar Gods, the Chaos Gods, Gork & Mork, the C'Tan, and the Emperor have in common is that they all are fairly even matches against one another. (By "even" I mean not a COMPLETE roflpwn) However, they are also able to squash almost all the other characters in the universe like a bug. (Gork & Mork meet Tim the Space Marine)

Also, we know that whenever they are gods because their individual fights with each other are BIG events that go down in 40k history: Nightbringer vs Khaine is a good example. Also, the Orks often tell stories about their Gods beating up all the other gods.

PS. GW didn't FULLY kill off the Sensei plotline. They just had the inquisition (which would actually WANT the emperor to remain dead) to denounce it.
 

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Eldar Pantheon: All dead or vanquished. Instantly disqualified. :p

Actually non of the Gods were killed, their power was basicly eaten by Slannesh. Slannesh gorge on all of the Eldar Gods except... Isha who is with papa Nurgle, and suppossly gives the mortal beings of the Universe the cures to Nurgles plagues. The Laughing God is in the Webway and rules the Harlies. Then you STILL have Khain, the God that Slannesh at his peak could not destroy or devour. He exist in a fashion.

So not disqualified. :p
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Thanks all for the replies! It's nice to see a presence of 40k Theology buffs :biggrin:. Wonder if there's a Uni in the UK that offers Fantasy Theology as a major... =P

On the subject of Sensei/Illuminati: I seem to recall the Sensei/Illuminati plots were declared exterminatus hereticus by the Inquisition, but that doesn't really mean anything. Some Inquisitors want the emperor to die and be reborn, some want to round up the Sensei and sacrifice them to re-awaken the Immortal God Emperor. The Inquisition is so divided that the declaration of hereticus or exterminatus can sometimes be just a pissing contest.

On the subject of C'tan, they cannot be destroyed, they are energy-beings in the truest sense. They are sentient star energy, and can only be devoured or imprisoned (Void Dragon beneath Mars). They do not wholly embody the C'tan you see on the battlefield, but as I recall, imbue only a fraction (a teensy weensy one at that) of their whole power into each avatar they posess... The Nightbringer, as represented in the rulebook statlines is more to the Necrons what the Avatar of Khaine is to the Eldar.

I think the definition I find most fitting is that you're a god if you can't be destroyed in any real way (vanquished from the battlefield, but comes back just as strong). That leaves room for the shards of Khaine to prove he's still a god (Not dead yet, as per Monty Python's Holy Grail), the Emperor, though physically laid low, is still alive, especially in the Warp, and his saints do fit the definition of Imperial Daemons... I think. Perhaps though I'm missing something. Anyone else got thoughts on the subject?

Either that, or I should just go up to each one and comment on how nice the day has been...
 

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I would define it as any being that is worshipped and has both a metaphysical, i.e warp presence and can manifest itself in some way,shape or form in the material plane, saints, daemons, avatars of khaine, and correct me if im wrong, but didnt Slaanesh beat khaine? Which splintered his form into the avatars? Or was that the nightbringer? I can never remember..
 

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just look at me, I, primarch lorgar, am a god!:laugh:
 
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