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Craw-Daddy
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
What Could Horus Have Done Better? *SPOILERS*

THERE ARE SPOILERS IN THIS THREAD, NOTHING YOU CAN'T GET YOUR HANDS ON THOUGH. Just in case you want to get the rest of the information.

Besides for not Dropping his shields during the Battle of Terra, what do you think could have strategically done better in the overall scheme of things including the final battle and fight for the Imperium.:cool:
 

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I think it went perfectly.

The fact that he didn't completely kill the Emperor is perfect, because it gives the Imperium a false sense of hope, when in reality all is lost.:eek:k:

And best of all, he killed that overrated dickhead mutant with wings (aka Sanguinus).:gimmefive:
 

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Señor Member
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Horus could not have been so weak-willed and fallen to Chaos in the first place, and Humanity wouldn't be in such dire straights right now. But I digress...He should have made sure the majority of the Imperium was behind him and crushed those that weren't before going at the big E.
 

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Do you heretics believe that it would be possible that Horus could have gained the support of any other legions? Why or why not?
Yep. All he had to do was say that the Emperor raped their mothers. Instant traitors.
How do you think Khorne Berzerkers are made? :grin:
 

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Grand Lord Munchkin
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I think that the battle for Terra went extremely well for Horus tbh. The major contributer to the failure of the battle was the inability of legions such as the night lords and the alpha legion to hold back loyalist reinforcements. If he had more time his victory would have been assured but with the imminent threat of an imperial attack that would have all but wiped out his orbiting fleet he had no other choice but to try and lure the emperor into a trap.
 

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I too think that he did everything pretty much perfectly. Imperial Palace would have fallen if he had had more time before the loyalist reinforcements could arrive. The scheme to drop the shields and lure the Emperor in was a rash and desperate gambit, and it didn't go quite as planned as it was not part of the plan at all.

@Carna: I think you could compare Horus and Hannibal in this situation. Both had achieved a major if not desicive victory, and both had the same choises.

1. Consilidate forces and secury the loyalty and support from as people many as possible.

2. Attack the enemy immediatly, not giving them time to recover.

Hannibal ofcourse went for the first option, and ended up being grinded to pieces little by little by both his "own", as well as his enemy that now refused to face him directly in another large battle, until they were absolutely ready for it. This resulted in the fact that in the end, Hannibal was defeated in the battle of Zama.
Maybe I have misread something but I got the impretion that Horus also was fighting tooth and nail to keep his forces together just to get them to Terra. And even tough he chose the second option, he ran out of time, as I said before, and was defeated as well.
 

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Craw-Daddy
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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
2. Attack the enemy immediatly, not giving them time to recover.
Agreed an also elaborated, in the future Horus Heresy Novel Nemesis.

 

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Craw-Daddy
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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
I think base on speculation, that time and resources needed to destroy the loyalist astartes actually did take up a lot from the traitors. And I'm talking about both Istavaans.

I want to know what you guys thought about these quotes and what you think about the possibility that given the correct measures, he could have persuaded other primarchs to join his side thus making his heresy faster, and more "win-able". Perhaps their wouldn't have been so much devastation as the rest of the Emperor's armies could have been washed away.



"So... you are going to kill me?" Ferrus Hesitated, and Fulgrim saw his shoulders sag in despair. "I am your sworn honour brother and I swear to you that I do not lie," pressed Fulgrim, hoping that there was still a chance to convince his brother not to act in haste. "I know you're not lying, Fulgrim," said Ferrus sadly...
Fulgrim Page 383-384

We all know Ferrus remained loyal, but I was thinking, that perhaps if Ferrus had been seduced better, perhaps with great reward or maybe a better believable lie that Ferrus could have been turned. Because according to what Fulgrim said, he sensed it to be true.



"Was the Wildness... the savagery of the army that raged towards him something that hid in every legion?" Corax in Raven Flight
"Corax and free deliverance from the slave master and guided them to the fold of the Imperium. Perhaps he had merely swapped one master for another..." Corax in Raven Flight
Corax talks about how the traitor legions had no purpose and were fighting along Horus "blindly." Could Horus have tricked Corax to join him and return give him free reign over his own planet without ties to the Imperium? Could he and the chaos powers given him the purpose he wanted?



"Now we have it, now the truth dawns. He felt the hairs on his skin rise. I'm not afraid of Horus, I'm afraid of why he has turned against us... Horus must have his reasons. I am afraid that when I know them, when they are explained to my baffled mind I might..." Dorn in The Lightning Tower
"I believe it is better that we don't know... to understand would be to understand insanity. Horus is quite mad. Chaos is by him." - Malcador in Lightning Tower
This might have contributed to the fall of the walls of Terra. His inability to understand his enemy, to do so, was to lose, and yet he had no other alternative but to be ignorant and in turn still lose. Would have Dorn been swayed to joining Horus had Horus and the Chaos Powers showed them what they call as the "truth." Though this would be the most difficult as Dorn was at the Emperor's side. But if indeed they had joined, they could have been a terrible agent against the Imperium. Especially a double agent literally turning there guns around on the walls of Terra.
 

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He could have not been an absolute 100% fucktard, and lower the shields of his flagship in orbit around terra during the seige of the Emperor's palace. Fighting the Emperor was only ever going to end in Horus getting completely bumrushed.

They had practically already smashed the palace, and if he had kept a cool head instead of being impatient, then they could have just waited and gone the whole way.

But no.

He decides to be a complete and utter chump and lower the shield, just so that the Emperor can teleport up to his ship and they can face each other one on one.

Retard.

Deserved to lose.

EDIT: Oh, we weren't sposed to list the completely obvious. My bad.

He could have kept his lackeys in better order throughout the Heresy. Night haunter going all emo and letting some measly assassin take him out was LAME (but, then again, Night Haunter IS lame, so who cares). The Emperor's Children spending most of their time listening to loud death metal while casually bumming each other didn't do much good, either. I mean they only managed to kill Guilliman, but that's hardly a challenge is it. Congratulating them for that would be like congratulating a grown man for stepping on an ant. A piss-ant. Don't even get me started on Lorgar, the absolute utter muppet-mouth..
 

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He was too fast and too eager. This is a result of listening to those stupid knuckle dragger dark gods.

If I had been Horus I would have taken more time and lured the Legions away from earth rather than hitting them head on. He started off well with the dropsite massacre, but his battle plan after that was just rubbish.

He knew he had three Legions at large in the galaxy. Two of those Legions were serious threats to him commanded by Generals who could match and possibly better his own abilites as a general. The sensible thing to do would be to move against Ultramar and engage and destroy Guilliman first. Think about it, he's closer to Macraage than Terra and Guilliman has the single largest force of Loyalist Astartes in the Galaxy. That would put a big fat target on it for me.

After he had done that he could turn and attack the Dark Angels. If he was canny enough he might have even caught them during their muster and even if he didn't they're a Legion with a fearsome reputation sure but they're no great size. Horus would be able to bury them with the size of the force he commanded.

After this he would be able to move on to earth He might have to deal with the Space Wolves being on Terra now but he wouldn't have to send significant parts of three legions off to other warzones to engage very powerful enemy forces. He could concentrate all his power to one point. That way he wouldn't have had to drop his shields or duel the Big E. He could have played a comfortable waiting game that the loyalists had no hope of winning.

Thankfully he didn't do any of that because Horus obviously left his brain in his loyalist armour.
 

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Craw-Daddy
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Discussion Starter #16
He was too fast and too eager. This is a result of listening to those stupid knuckle dragger dark gods.
Well if we take in account that perhaps Erebus was the speaker for the gods and urged Horus to not take down his shield to the ship than maybe he should have listened to the Chaos Gods. His rash decision was his decision based on the lie and one of his remaining last consults of his will. As we see in that little spoiler they also had taken their times.

If I had been Horus I would have taken more time and lured the Legions away from earth rather than hitting them head on. He started off well with the dropsite massacre, but his battle plan after that was just rubbish.
Interesting, which parts of his plans specifically were in your opinion most idiotic and why(as in how did they specifically hurt his traitor army?)

He knew he had three Legions at large in the galaxy. Two of those Legions were serious threats to him commanded by Generals who could match and possibly better his own abilites as a general. The sensible thing to do would be to move against Ultramar and engage and destroy Guilliman first. Think about it, he's closer to Macraage than Terra and Guilliman has the single largest force of Loyalist Astartes in the Galaxy. That would put a big fat target on it for me.
I think that could have been a smart idea actually. If you think about it Ultramar is probably the most farthest system away from Terra so help would not be a factor. I just wonder if he could take out each world with speed. He might have to send a legion per world to do it fast enough, so that the Dark Angels and Space Wolves could be ambushed in time to not make Terra as previously planned.

After he had done that he could turn and attack the Dark Angels. If he was canny enough he might have even caught them during their muster and even if he didn't they're a Legion with a fearsome reputation sure but they're no great size. Horus would be able to bury them with the size of the force he commanded.
Interesting... I like this idea too. Though again it is not clear to us whether doing this would benefit the Imperium by giving them replenishing time and putting more men on the walls.

After this he would be able to move on to earth He might have to deal with the Space Wolves being on Terra now but he wouldn't have to send significant parts of three legions off to other warzones to engage very powerful enemy forces. He could concentrate all his power to one point. That way he wouldn't have had to drop his shields or duel the Big E. He could have played a comfortable waiting game that the loyalists had no hope of winning.
Horus put both the Dark Angels, Space Wolves and perhaps maybe even the Ultramarines anyway but at the cost of weakening his force ability against the walls.

Thankfully he didn't do any of that because Horus obviously left his brain in his loyalist armour.[/QUOTE]
 

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I think the biggest single mistake was going to terra, all he had to do was to blokade the systems near to terra to prevent the emp getting out/supplies getting in and begin taking over the imperium bit by bit. occasionally sending small forces to reduce the number of defenders on terra. Eventually he could then launch his all out assault and fight the emporer on Horus's terms.

By going to the emp. horus left himself with only a few options
1:take Terra before re-enforcements arrived
2:grind terra down and fend off the re-enforcements
3:retreat and give the Emp. time, and a massive morale boost/victory.
 

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horus was too eager to acheive victory. i think he should have waited much longer to attack any of the other legions and reveal his heresy. Terra was reasonably well defended because they were expecting Horus to attack, if they were caught by suprise things might have gone differently. although he'd still have the rest of the loyalists to worry about.
 

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I think he should have been a bit more patient and silver-tongued with the other loylaist legions. With how easy the first traitor legion bought his lies and promises of Chaos-fueled power, I wonder if some of the holdouts would have gone over with just a little more persuasion. Yes, it maybe would have made his betrayal come to light to the Emperor, but if he got another couple legions to back his rebellion, he might have had a better chance to wipe the Emperor off the face of Terra.

I also would have gone after the Wolves and the Ultramarines before I went after Terra itself, or at the very least, lured them far away and tied them up with something else. If he could have kept Russ and Guillman away long enough to take Terra, it would have been hard for them to come back and fight him off the planet, as Horus found out with the siege.
 

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Horus attacked terra before dealing enough with the other legions. The only 2 loyalists ones that were occupied were the wolves and smurfs. The others (not including the isstavan ones) were fairly free

The problem wasn't what Horus did wrong but what Dorn did right. Dorn made alot of rash errors but by the time he had managed to get 3 legions to terra horus was completely stuffed. Remember that it takes far less troops to defend a fort than to claim a fort. The palace complex was Horus's death warrant.

And although you guys are complaining that Horus went mono mono with the emperor, who elso was going to kill him? Horus was the only one with the slightest chance, the big E was the most powerful psyker in the galaxy he could devastate armies on his own. Look at what Magnus done at Ullanor, and he was not as powerful as the Big E.
 
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