[Phoebus]

The problems the Primarchs have don't have much of anything to do with genetic code. It's almost always a case of "nurture" as opposed to "nature" with them, sometimes with a healthy dose of the Warp, to boot. The type of nurture and upbringing they received developed their characters and behavioral patterns. Note that while all Primarchs retained much of the culture they grew up with, it did not prevent them (well, almost all of them) from becoming viable parts of the Imperium.

Specifically -

1. The Lion:
He is a recluse (see his behavior and personal dwellings in 'Fallen Angels' and 'Savage Weapons'), but that is to be expected given his initial upbringing in Caliban, during which he was completely alone. Mike Lee's description perhaps alludes to him not being able to "read" people, but that is hardly evidence of paranoia or schizophrenia. A paranoid schizophrenic would not be able to command a Legion effectively to begin with, something that the Lion has shown he is able to do (to say the least).

3. Fulgrim:
Fulgrim has a perfectionist complex when we are first introduced to him, but that is hardly surprising for anyone in a position of such power and authority. Furthermore, it is qualified for us that his early behavior is quite different for the narcissistic, egocentric complex that he develops after his contact with the Laer. His friendship with Ferrus Manus is further evidence of that.

4. Perturabo:
'Angel Exterminatus' hints (in my humble opinion) that Perturabo may have initially been tainted by the Warp - note his ability to see the Eye of Terror when no one else can. Beyond that, what you have is an individual whose moral compass is gradually, brutally whittled down as his gifts for building and creation are "perverted" (if you will) toward destruction and warfare of the cruelest and most unrewarded kind.

5. The Khan:
Classic nurture vs. nature. He was found by a nomadic, tribal, violent warrior culture and became just like the people who adopted him.

6. Russ:
Although 'Deliverance Lost' revealed that all Primarchs had been designed at the genetic level for certain tasks, Russ is perhaps the only one whose genetic makeup might have trumped whatever "nurture" he received, regardless of where he landed.

7. Dorn:
Adopted by a stable, civilized stellar empire, Rogal Dorn lives his life much the same way. He builds, he fortifies, he leads, he organizes.

8. Night Haunter:
He lands on a planet full of killers, rapists, and other assorted criminals. Not surprisingly, he develops into a merciless, predatory creature with an absolutely broken code of ethics.

9. Sanguinius:
He is adopted by one of the tribes on Baal Secundus that aren't vicious, mutated killers. He is venerated as a savior and as a divine creature. He repays them by protecting them and fighting off their monstrous enemies. His behavior pattern largely continues that way.

10. Ferrus Manus:
He grows up on a planet defined by a Darwinian complex - the strong survive, the weak die. Not surprisingly, he values strength over all other things, trusts his own artifices and power over those of others, and has a hard time "letting people in" and making friends.

12. Angron:
Need we go into this? Within days of arrival, is almost murdered, and is then captured by slavers who beat machines into his brain meant to make him into a berserker. Decades of horrific abuse ensue. Only moral motivation has to do with killing human beings.

13. Guilliman:
Call it, "Dorn Part 2."

14. Mortarion:
Lands on a planet whose human population is oppressed by sadistic, murderous xenos. Is forced to slave away under said xenos until he escapes and and leads humans to rebellion. Only way to fight the war is a grueling, brutal slog against conditions guaranteed to kill people. Not surprisingly, develops a penchant for poisons, toxins, and a macabre look.

15. Magnus:
Lands on a planet of psykers, swiftly discovers he is more powerful than anyone there. Absent any real authority figure, embarks on an exploration of not just his own powers, but of the defining forces of the universe. Chaos, probably as part of its own game, hides its worst face from him, which only gives Magnus a greater sense of comfort. When the Emperor warns him of "horrific dangers", what exactly has Magnus seen to lead him to believe his father?

16. Horus:
Far from a narcissistic egomaniac, the Horus we initially see is a rather balanced, genial, and benevolent individual - as warlords given command over superhuman warriors, fleets of starships, armies of humans, and a mandate to conquer the galaxy go. His worst behavior prior to his fall is his frustration with brothers he thinks can't stand to see him as "primus inter pares". It's not until after Erebus puts his plan in motion - and specifically after he is poisoned and tempted in a Warp trance - that Horus starts going downhill.

17. Lorgar:
Complete nurture over nature. Lands on planet of religious zealots, becomes a religious zealot searching for the meaning of it all.

18. Vulkan:
Lands on planet of hardy survivors whose society is based around smithing, fire, anvils, hammers, flames, magma, etc. I give you one chance to guess what he and his Legion develop into.

19. Corax:
A life hiding from vicious oppressors and tyrants leads to a penchant for stealth and hit-and-run tactics. Huge surprise!

20. Alpharius and Omegon:
I reserve the right to withhold comment until we know more about them. I think it goes without saying, though, that 'Legion' heavily implies there never was a "little brother" complex. The Alpharius and Omegon we see in that novel would never have given a damn about Guilliman pointing at his banners... and the Guilliman we see in 'The First Heretic, 'Rules of Engagement', 'Know No Fear', and 'Betrayer' does not seem like the kind of guy who would point at his trophy case to mock another Primarch.

Thus, with the exception of a couple of Primarchs, we can see that it was events during the Heresy or external factors during their upbringing that led to any Primarch having what could be termed deviant behavior. Absent the Warp, botched cyber-surgery, and being stuck in hell-worlds, it's a fair assumption that every Primarch (or at least almost every one of them) would have arrived stable and well-adjusted... as far as conquerors of a galaxy go, anyways. :wink:

 

[Jacobite]

12. Angron:
Need we go into this? Within days of arrival, is almost murdered, and is then captured by slavers who beat machines into his brain meant to make him into a berserker. Decades of horrific abuse ensue. Only moral motivation has to do with killing human beings.

You forgot the whole "feels betrayed by his "father" thing as well. Other than that fraking awesome post!

 

[Phoebus]

I didn't include that as I figured that was an "external factor". It wasn't something he was genetically predisposed to, which was what I was arguing against.

Also, thanks!

 

[gothik]

The problems the Primarchs have don't have much of anything to do with genetic code. It's almost always a case of "nurture" as opposed to "nature" with them, sometimes with a healthy dose of the Warp, to boot. The type of nurture and upbringing they received developed their characters and behavioral patterns. Note that while all Primarchs retained much of the culture they grew up with, it did not prevent them (well, almost all of them) from becoming viable parts of the Imperium.

Specifically -

1. The Lion:
He is a recluse (see his behavior and personal dwellings in 'Fallen Angels' and 'Savage Weapons'), but that is to be expected given his initial upbringing in Caliban, during which he was completely alone. Mike Lee's description perhaps alludes to him not being able to "read" people, but that is hardly evidence of paranoia or schizophrenia. A paranoid schizophrenic would not be able to command a Legion effectively to begin with, something that the Lion has shown he is able to do (to say the least).

3. Fulgrim:
Fulgrim has a perfectionist complex when we are first introduced to him, but that is hardly surprising for anyone in a position of such power and authority. Furthermore, it is qualified for us that his early behavior is quite different for the narcissistic, egocentric complex that he develops after his contact with the Laer. His friendship with Ferrus Manus is further evidence of that.

4. Perturabo:
'Angel Exterminatus' hints (in my humble opinion) that Perturabo may have initially been tainted by the Warp - note his ability to see the Eye of Terror when no one else can. Beyond that, what you have is an individual whose moral compass is gradually, brutally whittled down as his gifts for building and creation are "perverted" (if you will) toward destruction and warfare of the cruelest and most unrewarded kind.

5. The Khan:
Classic nurture vs. nature. He was found by a nomadic, tribal, violent warrior culture and became just like the people who adopted him.

6. Russ:
Although 'Deliverance Lost' revealed that all Primarchs had been designed at the genetic level for certain tasks, Russ is perhaps the only one whose genetic makeup might have trumped whatever "nurture" he received, regardless of where he landed.

7. Dorn:
Adopted by a stable, civilized stellar empire, Rogal Dorn lives his life much the same way. He builds, he fortifies, he leads, he organizes.

8. Night Haunter:
He lands on a planet full of killers, rapists, and other assorted criminals. Not surprisingly, he develops into a merciless, predatory creature with an absolutely broken code of ethics.

9. Sanguinius:
He is adopted by one of the tribes on Baal Secundus that aren't vicious, mutated killers. He is venerated as a savior and as a divine creature. He repays them by protecting them and fighting off their monstrous enemies. His behavior pattern largely continues that way.

10. Ferrus Manus:
He grows up on a planet defined by a Darwinian complex - the strong survive, the weak die. Not surprisingly, he values strength over all other things, trusts his own artifices and power over those of others, and has a hard time "letting people in" and making friends.

12. Angron:
Need we go into this? Within days of arrival, is almost murdered, and is then captured by slavers who beat machines into his brain meant to make him into a berserker. Decades of horrific abuse ensue. Only moral motivation has to do with killing human beings.

13. Guilliman:
Call it, "Dorn Part 2."

14. Mortarion:
Lands on a planet whose human population is oppressed by sadistic, murderous xenos. Is forced to slave away under said xenos until he escapes and and leads humans to rebellion. Only way to fight the war is a grueling, brutal slog against conditions guaranteed to kill people. Not surprisingly, develops a penchant for poisons, toxins, and a macabre look.

15. Magnus:
Lands on a planet of psykers, swiftly discovers he is more powerful than anyone there. Absent any real authority figure, embarks on an exploration of not just his own powers, but of the defining forces of the universe. Chaos, probably as part of its own game, hides its worst face from him, which only gives Magnus a greater sense of comfort. When the Emperor warns him of "horrific dangers", what exactly has Magnus seen to lead him to believe his father?

16. Horus:
Far from a narcissistic egomaniac, the Horus we initially see is a rather balanced, genial, and benevolent individual - as warlords given command over superhuman warriors, fleets of starships, armies of humans, and a mandate to conquer the galaxy go. His worst behavior prior to his fall is his frustration with brothers he thinks can't stand to see him as "primus inter pares". It's not until after Erebus puts his plan in motion - and specifically after he is poisoned and tempted in a Warp trance - that Horus starts going downhill.

17. Lorgar:
Complete nurture over nature. Lands on planet of religious zealots, becomes a religious zealot searching for the meaning of it all.

18. Vulkan:
Lands on planet of hardy survivors whose society is based around smithing, fire, anvils, hammers, flames, magma, etc. I give you one chance to guess what he and his Legion develop into.

19. Corax:
A life hiding from vicious oppressors and tyrants leads to a penchant for stealth and hit-and-run tactics. Huge surprise!

20. Alpharius and Omegon:
I reserve the right to withhold comment until we know more about them. I think it goes without saying, though, that 'Legion' heavily implies there never was a "little brother" complex. The Alpharius and Omegon we see in that novel would never have given a damn about Guilliman pointing at his banners... and the Guilliman we see in 'The First Heretic, 'Rules of Engagement', 'Know No Fear', and 'Betrayer' does not seem like the kind of guy who would point at his trophy case to mock another Primarch.

Thus, with the exception of a couple of Primarchs, we can see that it was events during the Heresy or external factors during their upbringing that led to any Primarch having what could be termed deviant behavior. Absent the Warp, botched cyber-surgery, and being stuck in hell-worlds, it's a fair assumption that every Primarch (or at least almost every one of them) would have arrived stable and well-adjusted... as far as conquerors of a galaxy go, anyways. :wink:

:shok::goodpost: fantastic answer

 

[Lux]

Yet through it all, Angron alone was the only individual of his cohort that was unable to conquer his planet. Furthermore it seems Angron's very views upon war, strategy, and base concepts such as victory are all horribly distorted.

A common sign seen in patients...of less then average intelligence is that they replace the meaning of a concept with one that fits the density of their own reality.

Angron's very display of lack of intelligence, is more so then any argument that it is entirely nurture. Angron has displayed a grand deal of showings for one to postulate that his degree of retardation is heavily nature based, which was only exacerbated by the nails.

 

[MEQinc]

Yet through it all, Angron alone was the only individual of his cohort that was unable to conquer his planet.

Or you know, not. Mortarion, Alpharius (might have), Russ, Night Haunter, etc.

Given the limits of his force in terms of technology, numbers and training what Angron was able to achieve was pretty darn impressive and certainly not the feat of a mentally challenged individual.

Angron has displayed a grand deal of showings for one to postulate that his degree of retardation is heavily nature based, which was only exacerbated by the nails.

One being you, no one else has seen any of these hints. You have to show that he was just as challenged early in his life as he was later, and he clearly wasn't.

 

[darkreever]

Yet through it all, Angron alone was the only individual of his cohort that was unable to conquer his planet.

Convenient of you to forget Mortarion, who not only failed to liberate his world, but was challenged by the Emperor to do it alone or swear complete obedience to him should he fail.

Also, Night Haunter never really conquered his world considering how much it fell back to old ways once he was gone. How many of the other primarchs homeworlds was this true for?

Furthermore it seems Angron's very views upon war, strategy, and base concepts such as victory are all horribly distorted.

My view of victory in games of 40k is vastly different from those of a professional tournie player, that says nothing about our cognitive functions in regards to being mentally challenged or not.

A common sign seen in patients...of less then average intelligence is that they replace the meaning of a concept with one that fits the density of their own reality.

Huh, kinda reminds me of a certain three letter named individual..

Must have channeled MEQ a bit for that one:grin:

 

[Lux]

Convenient of you to forget Mortarion, who not only failed to liberate his world, but was challenged by the Emperor to do it alone or swear complete obedience to him should he fail.

Mortarion unlike Angron, conquered the entire planet except for the last stronghold which was being held by his adoptive father. For all intents and purposes Mortarion had conquered the entire planet, this is further reinforced where in several books the World Eaters acknowledge that out of all the legions only their primarch failed to conquer his homeworld.

Also, Night Haunter never really conquered his world considering how much it fell back to old ways once he was gone. How many of the other primarchs homeworlds was this true for?

Once again I question where you draw your material, and or definitions perhaps you need to reaffirm your perception of what you are reading and cease from meddling it with your own emotional values.

Night Haunter had fully conquered all of Nostramo, he had absolute control and domination of every facet of life on the planet. When the Emperor arrived he praised Konrad, and told him that this world was the ideal model world of all future imperial worlds being brought into compliance.

Nostramo falling into a state of disarray in the future has nothing to do with the world being fully conquered by the Night Haunter centuries prior. You truly need to learn to separate static definition from your own emotional ques, when discussing literature as this.

My view of victory in games of 40k is vastly different from those of a professional tournie player, that says nothing about our cognitive functions in regards to being mentally challenged or not.

Once again you are comparing your own self to the medium of individuals who are diagnosed with a degree of retardation, it doesn't work that way. This is something often times many young individuals will do in their early 20's when first discovering differing paradigms from their own.

Angron's comparison is that to those in his cohort, not yours. Angron unlike his brothers was unable to formulate any form of coherent strategy for war, battle, or long term goals. He was chased from city to city, with no strategy for what to do to ensure victory for the campaign, rather he never even contemplated it.

His children who received the nails were able to formulate complex strategies, such as ambushes, luring out the enemy, multiple directional flanking. The only difference the nails had on angron then that of his children, were that the nails were killing him on a physiological level. The nails were never stated to have been making him less intelligent, rather that was attributed to his own physiological predisposition, IE nature.

His children who also were degrading, were able to retain strategy while inherently being less then him to begin with.

Angron for all intents and purposes began his life with a degree of retardation, the Nails only made it more pronounced.

Huh, kinda reminds me of a certain three letter named individual..

Must have channeled MEQ a bit for that one:grin:

Your comparison of yourself to MEQ is purely of your own design, if that is your ideal to be so be it. But rather perhaps look at why you would want to supplant your own self with that of MEQ, is something lacking in who you see yourself as?

 

[Digg40k]

I still think it's a million monkeys with access to keyboards and this forum...

 

[Lux]

What is life?

I still think it's a million monkeys with access to keyboards and this forum...

 

[Digg40k]

What is life?

 

[darkreever]

Mortarion unlike Angron, conquered the entire planet except for the last stronghold which was being held by his adoptive father. For all intents and purposes Mortarion had conquered the entire planet, this is further reinforced where in several books the World Eaters acknowledge that out of all the legions only their primarch failed to conquer his homeworld.

Fact remains, Mortarion had not fully conquered Barbarus by the time the Emperor had arrived and was in fact challenged to liberate it on his own, to which he failed. Try to twist things to fit your own warped perception as much as you want but Mortarion still failed to fully conquer his world, just like Angron failed to conquer his world and Night Haunter only managed to keep his world in line through fear of retribution.

When the Emperor arrived he praised Konrad, and told him that this world was the ideal model world of all future imperial worlds being brought into compliance.

This being the same Emperor who repeatedly lied to his own sons, left them in the dark about very important things, allowed them to act in manners contradictory to what he wanted only to chastise them for it, and who would go on to try and have Night Haunter assassinated?

Angron for all intents and purposes began his life with a degree of retardation, the Nails only made it more pronounced.

Considering all we know of Angron is post nails going in, last I checked anyway, so how you can make this claim is beyond me; perhaps its just another one of your 'insights' and 'perceptions.'

Your comparison of yourself to MEQ is purely of your own design, if that is your ideal to be so be it. But rather perhaps look at why you would want to supplant your own self with that of MEQ, is something lacking in who you see yourself as?

That first bit wasn't me comparing MEQ, considering his member name is MEQinc (note that is six letters, not three.) MEQ and I happened to touch on the same stuff from your post, which is what I meant when I said I must have been channeling him.

Now I'd be less subtle about who the three lettered individual is, but I could only hope someone with your 'insights' and 'perceptions' could figure it out.

 

[Lux]

The Emperor designed each Primarch with a purpose, some as a bodiless gestalt entity that is a legion itself, rather then a singular individual. Others he designed to be animal like in loyalty, while with Angron he designed a primarch of which he could use purely as a force of brute power.

Angron's original design was to inherently have a degree of retardation in relativity to his primarch kin, this was to allow the Emperor to effortlessly wield Angron as a intellectually lacking force of brute power.

The Emperor planned to have Angron be extremely effective at what his purpose was, destruction without consequence. Thus the Emperor removed from angron any need to intellectual stimulation that would be taxing upon his most precious resource, time. Which is why the Emperor beamed Angron up, left his army to perish and went on his way without even speaking to him.

Originally Angron would have simply accepted being beamed up, and told that the legionares on his ship were his "barbarian kin" just now in suites of iron. Angron in his state of mental retardation would have believed it, but the introduction of the nails complicated everything.

The Nails though destroying his original design, allowed angron a doorway to intellectual awareness, a retarded one at that though. Thus why post of the nails he became a slobbering, unable to formulate anything abstract entity of anger.

His anger is not from the nails, rather is anger is from the nails granting him entrance to intellectual awareness but due to his inherent degree of retardation he is unable to understand it or process it.

Thus what results from that is endless rage at his own inept ability to think.

 

[MEQinc]

For all intents and purposes Mortarion had conquered the entire planet,

For all intents and purposes Mortarion died in his attempt to conquer his planet, and in so doing failed.

this is further reinforced where in several books the World Eaters acknowledge that out of all the legions only their primarch failed to conquer his homeworld.

Then these Legionaries are wrong. It is completely canonical that other Primarchs failed to conquer their planet. What in-story beliefs certain characters hold isn't really relevant.

Night Haunter had fully conquered all of Nostramo, he had absolute control and domination of every facet of life on the planet.

Night Haunter conquered Nostromo Quintus, the biggest city on Nostramo, but he did not conquer the entire planet. Further he exercised very little control over his city, so long as people avoided crime he was largely content. Night Haunter was never a leader and he wasn't a conqueror, he was a bogeyman.

His children who also were degrading, were able to retain strategy while inherently being less then him to begin with.

And so was Angron, initially. However the longer the World Eaters had the Nails the harder it became for them to retain their strategical thinking in the face of combat. Angron had the Nails for far longer, and from a much younger state of development, then any other member of his Legion (perhaps by as much as several decades). It is only logical that he would begin to show degradation first.

while with Angron he designed a primarch of which he could use purely as a force of brute power.

Assuming that to be true there is still no reason why you would intentionally make him mentally challenged. Having an intelligent hand to wield his brute force would be a much better idea. Indeed that's basically the entire point of the Primarch program. Brutal power melded to brilliant minds.

Angron's original design was to inherently have a degree of retardation in relativity to his primarch kin,

Wait is this your argument? That Angron probably wasn't the smartest Primarch? That's probably true. But there is a big gulf between "not the smartest" and "mentally challenged".

this was to allow the Emperor to effortlessly wield Angron as a intellectually lacking force of brute power.

Interesting then that he failed to do so.

Originally Angron would have simply accepted being beamed up, and told that the legionares on his ship were his "barbarian kin" just now in suites of iron. Angron in his state of mental retardation would have believed it, but the introduction of the nails complicated everything.

Complete and utter fabrication. You have no evidence to support this claim (and indeed it's pretty stupid). You cannot make up evidence to support other claims, that's not how a logical debate works (though maybe that's my fault for expecting a logical debate from you).

The Nails though destroying his original design, allowed angron a doorway to intellectual awareness, a retarded one at that though. Thus why post of the nails he became a slobbering, unable to formulate anything abstract entity of anger.

So... the Nails made him dumber but also smarter, at the same time. Wow.

His anger is not from the nails, rather is anger is from the nails granting him entrance to intellectual awareness but due to his inherent degree of retardation he is unable to understand it or process it.

Except of course that the Nails are explicitly stated to cause and increase anger. You are directly contradicting everything we know about the Nails (and Angron) in order to support your theory. At that point surely even you have to admit that you're wrong.

 

[darkreever]

At that point surely even you have to admit that you're wrong.

Youd think/hope so, but if I were you (though be careful because Lux might think we have identity issues) I wouldnt hold my breath on that one.

 

[Lux]

darkreever are you and MEQ the same person using different aliases?

 

[Jacobite]

Na I'm pretty sure Angron was just an angry bastard who had metal rammed into his brain against his will which in turn made him less in control.

If we want to discuss retards though I could mention somebody....

 

[OIIIIIIO]

Angron, being driven to a nearly battle focused state at all times from the nails, are something that I can wrap my mind around. I have SEEN people that were so focused and intent on killing that they had the 1,000 yard stare. Let me tell you, if you have ever seen it with your own eyes ( NOT some fucking actor portrayal in a movie ) you would not only get what they are trying to instill, but you will never forget it.

This is what the nails have done to Angron in my opinion. Always ready to kill but yet not really as cognitive of the surroundings as most others in the area. Completely aware but, vacant eyes. The urge to destroy living things that are deemed as the enemy.

Oh yes .... Angron is brutal, but he is by no stretch of the imagination retarded.

 

[Ryu_Niimura]

Angron, being driven to a nearly battle focused state at all times from the nails, are something that I can wrap my mind around. I have SEEN people that were so focused and intent on killing that they had the 1,000 yard stare. Let me tell you, if you have ever seen it with your own eyes ( NOT some fucking actor portrayal in a movie ) you would not only get what they are trying to instill, but you will never forget it.

This is what the nails have done to Angron in my opinion. Always ready to kill but yet not really as cognitive of the surroundings as most others in the area. Completely aware but, vacant eyes. The urge to destroy living things that are deemed as the enemy.

Oh yes .... Angron is brutal, but he is by no stretch of the imagination retarded.

Although not an expert on the matter, from what I have read Angron is considered the personification of blind anger. There is something called a depersonalisation disorder (or DPD for short) which can cause someone to have an "out of body experience". Angron being overcome by rage and being unnable to comprehend anything else that is going on around him is a text book example of this. DPD can be caused by, among other things, a very traumatic childhood, add to that the brain damage suffered from the nails in his head and you are left with the perfect recipe for a mindless killing machine. The brain damage could possibly have caused Angron to stay in his depersonalized state therefore he may appear "retarded" to the outside world but has simply sealed away his consiousness and is unable to get a grip on himself.

 

[MEQinc]

darkreever are you and MEQ the same person using different aliases?

Shit, he's gotten wise to us darkreever, quickly to the escape pods!

Though really there's no cause for concern as really you are also one of us Lux, as we are one of you... all fragile creations of ego and idea... manifesting in this forum... talking to ourselves, ourself.