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Discussion Starter #1
After reading countless documents regarding angron, such as "Angron" "betrayer" "raven's flight", etc etc. I have come to the conclusion that Games Workshop designed Angron with the intent of being mentally "retarded", I use this word to its' full psychological definition. That Angron was below the average level of intelligence relative to his social comparison.

Furthermore it seems Black Library went out of their way to attribute to him a plethora of physically and behaviorally displayed symptoms that are often seen in retarded individuals, mostly through brain damage in various lobes.

The red eyes, the constant slobbering, twitching face and muscles, along the inability to focus upon any subject for long without the constant desire to do something else.

I just find it interesting that even among primarchs who are super humans, yet humans among one another that Angron was the retarded one of them. Which I suppose makes sense, you have some which are entirely narcissistic, others that are experiencing delusions of grandeur, paranoia and so forth.

Your thoughts?
 

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@title: yeah just no.

I will say that not even ADB could save Angron from GW's established lore on him. It's not the authors fault, there is simply only so much you can do with Angron before changing his story radically.

In Betrayer, he and his legion were still incapable of forming any battle tactics and blindly charged into the fray losing hundreds.

IMO there still was never any reason for the Emperor to send the WE in when you could have controlled fury/savagery (Wolves/Blood Angels).

It was almost like they were made simply so that the other better legions would not have to lose men. A cannon fodder legion.
 

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@title: yeah just no.

I will say that not even ADB could save Angron from GW's established lore on him. It's not the authors fault, there is simply only so much you can do with Angron before changing his story radically.

In Betrayer, he and his legion were still incapable of forming any battle tactics and blindly charged into the fray losing hundreds.

IMO there still was never any reason for the Emperor to send the WE in when you could have controlled fury/savagery (Wolves/Blood Angels).

It was almost like they were made simply so that the other better legions would not have to lose men.
Why waste time on tactics when blindly charging in works just as well.

Personally I blame that rubics cube more than anything else.
 

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It doesn't work just as well because you have to constantly bolster your numbers after unnecessary losses.

There was a reason the other 19 legions did not imitate Angron's tactics.

Also they were like this even before the implants. The implants just worsened things.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Well I do think by the definition of one being retarded that Angron fit it perfectly, his tactics, plans, and processing of information was drastically below that of all his brothers and below that of the humans that served him (such as the ship captain, and some of his astartes).

Angron was unable to recognize or process that his tactics were inefficient, additionally he was unable to understand and process abstract forms of thinking. Particularly when he was recalling his fight with Russ and the wolves, Lorgar tells him that he is a foolish being for being unable to even see that he lost that fight entirely. Yet all Angron could reconigze due to his diminished mental processes, was that "Oh I punched russ more and he was on the ground longer". He was never able to see the tactics russ used, as well as that at any moment during that fight Russ could have killed him. Lorgar confirmed this, additionally Angron believed his forces kill more wolves yet Lorgar states that from every other source he knew, that it was the wolves who won the ground war too.

Angron is just unable to mentally see things beyond simple configurations, he is unable to process anything in regards to quantitative or abstract thinking.

Angron often times is depicted in both behavior, and thinking as a child. The body of a warrior with the mind of s stunted child stuck forever in childhood. He ruminates upon the same emotionally ques constantly, never able to even understand why he does so and why it bothers him.

Angron, the retarded child of the primarchs.
 

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I would think Angron had brain damage. This no doubt reduced his cognitive capacity, in all senses I don't think he would qualify as mentally retarded though. Also the symptons you list are not actually associated with mental retardation but other disorders

Unfortunately we don't understand the physiology of primarchs enough to say more

The World Eaters were the emperors terror shock troops. Those whose reputation would stop wars before they happened, or a weapon to be exhausted to utterly destroy a foe. The emperor did not care about loses of destroyed legions, he was just concerned about his final objective
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I would think Angron had brain damage. This no doubt reduced his cognitive capacity, in all senses I don't think he would qualify as mentally retarded though. Also the symptons you list are not actually associated with mental retardation but other disorders

Unfortunately we don't understand the physiology of primarchs enough to say more

The World Eaters were the emperors terror shock troops. Those whose reputation would stop wars before they happened, or a weapon to be exhausted to utterly destroy a foe. The emperor did not care about loses of destroyed legions, he was just concerned about his final objective
He actually displays many symptoms of mental retardation, unable to process abstract thinking. Constant focus upon the concept of self with no understanding of anything outside of it, in addition to being unable to grasp and process large quantitative lines of thinking.

Unable to focus upon a single subject for long, can be associated with OCD but is often seen in individuals with retardation in that they are unable to process something and thus lose interest in it quickly. Twitchy face along with muscles is seen in many patients with brain damage, or a nerve disorder.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
You being adamant that angron is retarded made me laugh. +2 and well played for baiting me.
It's not just Angron, I think all of the Primarchs are severely disturbed in each their own ways. In Angron's particular case it is just blatantly apparent that he displays many, many symptoms of mental retardation.

Now whether this retardation stems from his cranial implants, or a genetic predisposition, or he was retarded from birth is up for discussion.
 

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He actually displays many symptoms of mental retardation, unable to process abstract thinking. Constant focus upon the concept of self with no understanding of anything outside of it, in addition to being unable to grasp and process large quantitative lines of thinking.

Unable to focus upon a single subject for long, can be associated with OCD but is often seen in individuals with retardation in that they are unable to process something and thus lose interest in it quickly. Twitchy face along with muscles is seen in many patients with brain damage, or a nerve disorder.

Difficulty with abstract thought is also associated with schizophrenia, depression, conduct disorder, OCD, ADHD, and many many other cognitive impairments

OCD is rarely linked to low attention

Twitchyness is linked to nerve damage or brain damage, most likely due to the nails
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Difficulty with abstract thought is also associated with schizophrenia, depression, conduct disorder, OCD, ADHD, and many many other cognitive impairments

OCD is rarely linked to low attention

Twitchyness is linked to nerve damage or brain damage, most likely due to the nails
Individually yes those symptoms can be attributed to a myriad of disorders and conditions, however when occurring in comorbidity with one another they are often found in patients suffering from retardation.
 

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I dunno, another aspect of mental retardation is that you are usually good at one thing.

Angron's really good at tearing things apart.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Rereading certain text regarding Angron, I came across several lines that display his severely limited capacity for speech. Angron when attempting to communicate with his brother logar spoke thus "BRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAATHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRR, uuunnnnnnnggggg braaaaaathhhhhhhhhhh......aaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh".

As you can see angron displays severe limited capacities in speech and ability to express himself coherent, and effectively to others. Lorgar even commented towards angron many times in the manner of "poor poor angron, foolish angron!". Due to angron's inability intellectually, and mentally to understand the simple concepts he was attempting to explain to him.
 

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I have come to the conclusion that Games Workshop designed Angron with the intent of being mentally "retarded",
I doubt GW designed Angron to be anything other than the "Khorne Primarch" and that's why he's a poorly developed character.

I use this word to its' full psychological definition.
Given that that term isn't used anymore, and the term that has replaced it (General Learning Disability) is only diagnosable in adolescence, you really aren't.

The red eyes,
Wait, what? Red eyes are a sign of cognitive problems? Since when? The pigmentation of your eyes is completely separate from the cognitive development and processing abilities of your brain.

unable to process abstract thinking.
Unable or unwilling? This is also seen in pragmatic and practical individuals, such as Perturabo whom I would call one of the most intelligent Primarchs.

Constant focus upon the concept of self with no understanding of anything outside of it,
Like "I'm-The-Most-Perfect-Thing-Ever" Fulgrim, or "Boo-Is-Me" Lorgar, or "Damn-I'm-Soo-Clever" Magnus or half a dozen other Primarchs you mean?

Unable to focus upon a single subject for long,
I haven't seen this in Angron, indeed I see quite the opposite. Angron craves, at all times, to be causing violence. This is a single subject and he is almost obsessively fixated on it. That he would rather be causing violence than doing anything else, and therefore that other things are less interesting to him, is a sign of serious emotional problems but not a sign of cognitive issues.

Twitchy face along with muscles is seen in many patients with brain damage, or a nerve disorder.
As well as in people who are angry. Angron is always angry thanks to the Nails and is therefore often twitchy.

Now whether this retardation stems from his cranial implants, or a genetic predisposition, or he was retarded from birth is up for discussion.
Given that the Nails have been explicitly stated to have eaten away at his mind, and that this can be seen in the change of his behaviour, I think it's pretty clear that any cognitive problems are the result of brain-damage caused by the Butcher's Nails.
 

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Yeah, all of the things Lux has stated have been attributed to the Nails hammered into his skull. They weren't made with a primarchs brain in mind after all. I believe Lorgar stated in Betrayer that because neither the Nails damaging effects nor Angrons primarch healing were winning against the other, it was slowly killing Angron.
 

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Like "I'm-The-Most-Perfect-Thing-Ever" Fulgrim, or "Boo-Is-Me" Lorgar, or "Damn-I'm-Soo-Clever" Magnus or half a dozen other Primarchs you mean?
Because of this, I am now imagining all the Primarchs as expies of Duke Nukem; "Damn, I'm good" and variations thereof.
 

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Because of this, I am now imagining all the Primarchs as expies of Duke Nukem; "Damn, I'm good" and variations thereof.
It all makes sense now.

One of the missing primarchs is duke nukem he sensed what as going to happen so he sent himself back in time to stop it.

All his games are him trying to save the imperium. except for DNF that's tzeentch trying to trick us.
 
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