Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner

1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Administrator
Joined
·
6,544 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
After futzing around with my old Orc army, I've decided it'll be a more efficient use of my time and money to just build the next portion of my grand Warriors of Chaos horde-- the army of Tzeentch.

I'm concerned that the army list I've come up with is rather spammy, and has a similar feel to my Warrior-dominated Khorne and Nurgle armies. Thoughts?

Lord/
Sorcerer Lord of Tzeentch
-Mark of Tzeentch. Armour of Destiny, Infernal Puppet, Sword of Battle. Level 4 Wizard.

Hero/
Exalted Hero
-Mark of Tzeentch. Battle Standard Bearer, Blasted Standard, Shield

Hero/
Sorcerer
-Level 2 Wizard. Lore of Fire.

Hero/
Sorcerer
-Level 2 Wizard. Lore of Death.

Core/
14 Warriors of Tzeentch. Full Command, Shields

Core/
14 Warriors of Tzeentch. Full Command, Shields

Core/
14 Warriors of Tzeentch. Full Command, Shields

Core/
14 Warriors of Tzeentch. Full Command, Shields



I feel like 8th edition is probably more geared towards 2500-3000 point games; with that in mind, I'd add a power stone to the Sorcerer using the Lore of Death, add the Ironcurse Icon to the pyromancer; and bump the units up to 19-strong (that'd take me to 2250); and perhaps add a couple units of Marauder Horsemen with flails at 10-strong each (to go to the 2500 range.)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
93 Posts
I would recomend teh iron curse icon in 2k, combined with mark of Tzeentch a 5+ ward against war machines :)

i dont know if it would be wise to have 3 wizards i know its a Tzeentch army but with teh random and limited number of dice to use everyone you will be spreading your dice to thin in my personal opinion, tbh i woudl just have the LV4 in 2k and perhaps add the other wizards in bigger games?

also i would try and beef up the warrior units, perhaps drop on unit to beef up teh other to 20 strong each and then if you dop the LV2's then you could buy some knights for hammer and anvil, mabye a warshrine or even maruaders? :)

also is the blasted standard realy worth it? are you goining to save the dice you could use on yoru LV4 wizard to cast D6 str4? hits? i would personaly drop it fpr some differant gear, perhaps the black tounge to use with your infernal puppet or perhaps the armor piercing banner for 45pts that everyone now has acces to???

i hope this helps :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,420 Posts
I think that the BSB could protect something more valuable than a block of Warriors. Maybe Knights, maybe Chosen, maybe Trolls (if you go with a change theme and not with fire), or one bigger block of Warriors. Because if I were a shooty opponent (Beastmen shooting, lol), I'd just shoot the other three squads but mainly on the Infernal Puppeteer, and send a big chunk of meat to hold up the BSB.

Another thing I'm not sure about is the killyness of Warriors. I'm 100% positive that Tzeentchian Warriors with Shields are the most resilient Core choice WoC can field, but I'm not sure if they're choppy enough to get job done without any other help. And magic doesn't look like a good hammer for the anvil, since you have 12 power dice at best plus each spell can only be cast once, which means no more Flickering Fire dakka. :(
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
885 Posts
Three sorcerers will struggle to get their spells off with the winds of magic rolls. I'd cut one for something else. Also, with the damage of miscasts, I'd use mounts for the sorcs (disks, steeds or daemonic) and the look at more protection for the sorcs like colar of khorne (MR2 plus 6+ ward save which combined well with Tzeentch) and enchanted shield (now only 5 points and great with chaos armour) and Golden Eye (4+ ward save against ranged attacks). With the ability to always wound on 6's bloodcurdling roar is very interesting for a sorcerer on the enemy unit flanks (2D6 S1 hits with no armour saves means it can average one wound a T10 1+ AS model like a stank on a 6 and will kill, on average, one chaos knight per turn) and cheap for shooting at very tough AS models.

I like the warriors but 4 of the same and no cav is a big problem. I'd run two units of warriors and use some of the magic banners on them and then run one unit of M. horsemen and a special unit in their place. You need flank protection. M Horsemen with axes have quicktostrike. I think that the stomp attack makes chaos ogres and dragon ogres better than before. A unit of two ranks of 3 wide ogres with chaos armour and stuff will be a tough unit and can disrupt ranks in flank attacks. A unit of chaos knights with banner of rage still has a role.

Also, with premeasure, a hellcannon may be better than before.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,420 Posts
As Sorcerers cannot have mundane shields I do not think they can have magical shields.
Well, they can have magical armour and magical shields are in the "magical armour" box in the magical items section, so...

... but you're the lawyer, I dare not argue. :laugh:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
885 Posts
Warriors cannot have armour or shields if not provided for in their armour book, but warriors of chaos sorcerers are a notable exception to the rule and come with chaos armour. It is pretty standard to put an enchanted shield on a WoC sorc and those shields not cost less in 8th edition than 7th.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,559 Posts
Warriors cannot have armour or shields if not provided for in their armour book, but warriors of chaos sorcerers are a notable exception to the rule and come with chaos armour.
I agree they can have magical plate and helms as they have mundane chaos armour to replace.

However, working form memory I had thought that GW clarified that, as they cannot have a mundane shield, they cannot have a magical shield.

I cannot find my source at the moment, so it might have been an off-the-cuff comment when they released a guide to the army.

As it is not in the current FAQ it no longer seems to be a problem.

... but you're the lawyer, I dare not argue. :laugh:
Drat! One of my main enjoyments is discussing the finer points of rules:grin:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,420 Posts

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,559 Posts
I had thought that GW clarified that, as they cannot have a mundane shield, they cannot have a magical shield.
Found my source:

"In terms of defence, consider decking your Chaos Sorcerer out with a suit of Magic Armour, such as the Bronze Armour of Zhrakk (oh, and despite the scurrilous advice I've given in the past, you can't equip your Sorcerers with magic shields... and apparently no amount of wishing, arguing or whining on my part will make it true)." - Page 2, Eye of the Gods Favour of the Ruinous Powers - Adam Troke - Games Workshop Website (retrieved 16 July 2010).

Whilst the article is about the current Army Book, it is not part of the current FAQ I do not think it applies any more.

Drat! One of my main enjoyments is discussing the finer points of rules:grin:
Thats the problem, I feel ill-prepared for that! :laugh:
Not a problem. I am sure someone somewhere is going to post a rules query.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,420 Posts
I couldn't find the date of the article, but from the looks of it, its 7th Edition, considering that his "Charnel Gorehand" with Killing Blow is able to destroy a Chariot with a single blow, which isn't possible with the current Killing Blow rules. Consequently, his statement of magical shields being illegal for Sorcerers looks invalid to say the least.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
6,544 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
The magic item section in the main rulebook specifically mentions Warriors of Chaos sorcerers being able to take anything from the magic armor section-- so it seems to me that they can take an enchanted shield now, no ifs, ands, or buts.


I'm fairly committed to the units of Warriors being the army, and sticking to a strictly Tzeentch theme (and by theme, I mean only the Mark of Tzeentch, Tzeentch related items, or unaligned stuff will be included-- no Banner of Rage anywhere, good as it may be.)

A lot of metagame discussion lately has been about how you *NEED* large units of Warriors now, and I'm really not convinced. 15 Warriors of Chaos really is a rather large unit, and costs as much as your average horde. Warriors have never run on static numbers, and with two attacks apiece, striking before everything that isn't pointy eared scum (and even then, most of that bounces off), and being as tough as they come, 15 should be plenty per unit.

However, I do think I'm going to revisit the character mix. I think I'll trade out one of the sorcerers for an Exalted Hero. I haven't decided whether I'll drop the Lore of Fire wizard, or the Lore of Shadow yet, though. I kind of feel like with the Lord having the Lore of Tzeentch, the Lore of Fire is sort of superfluous, and that'll probably be the one that gets cut.

Any thoughts on that?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,420 Posts
The Tzeentchian WoC will be a very tough nut to crack for other armies because of our 5++ in CC. For instance, recently I played around with some dice involving 30 Gors with AHW charging 12 Warriors with MoT and Shields, and it didn't end well. 7 Gors died immediately and could only kill 1 Warrior (though later it turned out that Gors have S3 so I kinda went for a worse case :p), because when I failed 3 armour saves I only got two 5+s. :p Another thing that looks interesting is 11 Knights with MoT and Blasted Standard and a choppy Lord with some 1+/3++ (Chaos Runesword and Armour of Destiny perhaps?) to make challenges go smoother and charges turn into slaughters. :laugh:

Well Warriors do need to be in bigger units than what we're used to in 7th but not too much, and it also depends on the point limit. For instance, for 1000 two 12-men units is perfectly fine; for 2000 15-18 should be enough (5x3 vs 6x3).

I think I'd drop the Lore of Fire guy because if you have a Lore of Tzeentch Lord you already have plenty of fire-based attacks (not to mention utility spells such as Pandemonium). Lore of Shadows is very nice because Pit of Shades can now eat Steam Tanks, plus the hopping around with the special rule of the Lore is annoying beyond imagination. Especially if you combine it with Lore of Tzeentch that can turn a rank-and-file model into an Exalted Hero, thus allowing the Shadow Sorcerer to swap places without moving your precious Sorcerers.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,559 Posts
Lore of Shadows is very nice.... (e)specially if you combine it with Lore of Tzeentch that can turn a rank-and-file model into an Exalted Hero, thus allowing the Shadow Sorcerer to swap places without moving your precious Sorcerers.
Interesting synergy; more sorcerers for me in the future I think.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
6,544 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
So, I've revised my army list. I'm going to take it to 2500, I think, because that seems like a better size for 8th than 2000. After reviewing weapons, the wording seems that additional hand weapons are not a special close combat weapon, so if you have both a shield and an additional hand weapon, you've still got a choice of what to use. Seems to me that the extra attack is more useful against horde opponents than the 5+ ward the shield gives, whereas against enemies that are packing great weapons or enemy elite units, I can just roll with the shields. Not as good as being able to choose between hand weapon and shield or halberd as in 7th, but still, not bad.

I know a lot of the metagame discussion has suggested that Warriors need to be in larger units than before. I've found 15 worked well in 7th, and 15 should still be fine in 8th, purely because the army never has worked off of static scores. It's enough models that I can expand to a 7x2 (with a straggler, assuming the unit's at full strength when it reaches combat, which isn't often the case-- I generally take a casualty or two on the way in) if necessary, or claim a rank bonus if I really need it. Lead by a character, the damage output is enough that it more than makes up for any static advantage the opponent has, and with the initiative that Warriors have, they're perfectly at home in a protracted combat.

Anyway, the Lord goes with one of the regular Warrior units, purely because he's a good fighter and they're good enough protection for him; the sorcerer goes with the unit with the War Banner to make up for his combat deficiencies; the BSB goes with the final unit of Warriors, and the Hero goes with the Chosen.

There's still about ten points floating around, so if there's a five point item that might actually be useful that could go on either the Chosen champion or the Sorcerer, I'm open to suggestions.



LORD/
Sorcerer Lord of Tzeentch
-Level 4, Spell Familiar, Sword of Battle, Talisman of Preservation, Enchanted Shield

HERO/
Exalted Hero of Tzeentch
-Battle Standard Bearer. Shield, Blasted Standard

HERO/
Sorcerer
-Level 2 Lore of Death. Golden Eye of Tzeentch

HERO/
Exalted Hero of Tzeentch
-Chaos Runesword, Shield

CORE/
14 Warriors of Tzeentch
-Full Command, Shields, Additional Hand Weapon, War Banner

CORE/
14 Warriors of Tzeentch
-Full Command, Shields, Additional Hand Weapon

CORE/
14 Warriors of Tzeentch
-Full Command, Shields, Additional Hand Weapon

SPECIAL/
14 Chosen of Tzeentch.
-Full Command, Ironcurse Icon, Favor of the Gods, Shields, Additional Hand Weapon

RARE/
Warshrine of Tzeentch

RARE/
Warshrine of Tzeentch

RARE/
Spawn of Tzeentch (marked for a lack of something better to do with the points, really.)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
58 Posts
Sorry to burst your bubble but you won't be able to pick and choose which weapon combination to use with your warriors. I agree they should of made it more clear about the 'Additional hand weapons' but it says and I quote 'Each special weapon confers a number of abilities onto the warrior wielding it' the additional hand weapon provides an 'Extra attack' therefore it is a special weapon.(Weapon Profiles pg 89)
You can however combine two special weapons for example halberds+additional hand weapons and you can pick which weapon to use for the rest of each combat.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,559 Posts
... 'Each special weapon confers a number of abilities onto the warrior wielding it' the additional hand weapon provides an 'Extra attack' therefore it is a special weapon.(Weapon Profiles pg 89)
I disagree.

Page 88 says: "We use the term special weapon to cover everything that isn't a hand weapon." Therefore, by definition, a hand weapon is not a special weapon.

All page 89 states is that all special weapons confer abilities, not that everything that confers abilities is a special weapon.
 

·
Porn King!!!
Joined
·
8,137 Posts
That actually looks pretty bad ass but you will be very very slow moving as well. You will have a hard time against fast moving armies I think. And you can always do better than the shit known as spawn.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
58 Posts
I disagree.

Page 88 says: "We use the term special weapon to cover everything that isn't a hand weapon." Therefore, by definition, a hand weapon is not a special weapon.

All page 89 states is that all special weapons confer abilities, not that everything that confers abilities is a special weapon.
I don't want to get into a rules war especially with a lawyer so instead I will neither agree nor disagree. It would seem a bit odd that an 'Two/Additional hand weapon' is exempt from being a special weapon despite having a special rule governing it and it not being called a 'hand weapon'. However you make a good point it isn't 100% clear that it is a special weapon.

I hope it does allow you to use both a shield and an additional hand weapon, because it would help my WoC army immensely but for now I won't equip them with an additional hand weapon since its a shady area.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,559 Posts
It would seem a bit odd that an 'Two/Additional hand weapon' is exempt from being a special weapon despite having a special rule governing it and it not being called a 'hand weapon'.
Conversely each of the two weapons is, individually, a hand weapon so the rule is about having several of them not a property of the weapon itself; also, is an extra attack for an extra weapon "special" or normal?

However you make a good point it isn't 100% clear that it is a special weapon.
And your point is not without merit; GW could have intended it to be a special weapon and failed to be specific enough.

It all depends on which assumption you prefer to make.

I hope it does allow you to use both a shield and an additional hand weapon, because it would help my WoC army immensely but for now I won't equip them with an additional hand weapon since its a shady area.
Good decision. As long as we know it is not clear we can each decide how to handle it, and add it to the list to confirm when entering tournaments.
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top