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Discussion Starter #1
Lords
von Mannstein Chaos Lord Chaos Dragon, Sword of Strife, Charmed Shield, Ironcurse Icon, Dragonbane Gem

Heroes
von Zunft Chaos Sorc Level 2, MoS, Steed of Slanesh, Stream of Corruption, Spell Familiar

Chaos Warriors x15 Halberds, Full Command, MoK, Shields, Fire Banner
Chaos Warriors x15 Halberds, Full Command, MoK, Shields

Special
Chaos Knights x9 40 FC, MoK, Blasted Standard

Rare
Hellcannon 205
Hellcannon 205
Warshrine Mark of Khorne 160

Total Cost 2500

Lord Percentage: 25%
Hero: 7%
Core: 26%
Special: 19%
Rare: 23%
Total: 100%

Any advice would be great! :)
 

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I'm not sure the knights are a good idea. If someone is packing Lore of Metal and a Level 4 you're going to cry and cry and cry. The unit is also unwieldy as hell unless you form into a rank - at which point you lose 3 attacks per model - almost halving the damage that the unit is capable of dealing. I would drop down the unit size to 6-7 models and spend the points somewhere else (maybe 18 man Warrior units?).

I'm not sure what the Sorcerer is supposed to be doing - lore of Slaanesh is the weakest of the three, and against any army with a level 4 you're probably never going to get a spell off. The breath weapon is better off on a character designed for combat (like a BSB). At the moment he's an expensive S3 template weapon. I'd throw him the Mark of Tzeentch so he can at least try to go toe-to-toe with a Level 4 and can get Gateway/Pandamonium/Treason. I'd drop the Familiar and the Breath weapon and go for something that actually lets him cast, such as Blood of Tzeentch, conjoined homunculus or power familiar.

The Warshrine could use a Mark of Tzeentch over Mark of Khorne - I don't think +1 Attack and having to test to restrain frenzy even compares to a 3+ Ward. I've played 8 games in the new edition and have yet to lose my Tzeentchian shrine to anything - and it's always got in the way of someone angling for a flank charge/bloodthirster/nasty flyer etc. I wouldn't drop it for anything else now.

Hope that helps a bit!
 

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Theres little else to say what Sethis haven't said already. Just a couple thoughts:

- Personally I think that the model count is very low for 2500, even for WoC standards. I'd forget about this mounted madness for Tournaments and squeeze out some more Warrior squads. The ones you have are great, its just that theres just two of them. And we're not called Warriors of Chaos for nothing. :p
- I miss the BSB. I'm definately a rookie but I can't see what justifies not taking one. Its just too damn good to miss out methinks.
- I'm not sold on Hellcannons. Especially since they compete with Tzeentchian Warshrines that can be barely brought down. A Hellcannon has around 3-4 chances with lots of optimism to get its points back, which is perfectly fine but everything depends on how you roll the scatter and the misfire dice. In comparison a Warshrine can always kick ass and buff your troops wherever you want them to perform a little better.
 

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The question of Warshrines has several facets:

- They are cheap. 150pts for a Rare (assuming MoT.... and frankly why would you not?) is 115pts cheaper than a Shaggoth and 55pts less than a Hellcannon. 2 of them sets you back a neat 300 points - once you head above 2k points then that invites three rare choices without stretching too much.

(cackles insanely at the notion of a 3-unit 1500pt army of 2 Shrines and a big bastard block of Warriors with a Sorcerer/Lord/BSB in it)

- They scale extremely well with unit size. The same goes for Marks. A unit of 30 Warriors gets Frenzy for 1 point per model (Mark of Khorne). A unit of 10 pays triple that for the same benefit. The Warshrine follows exactly the same logic. The larger the unit you target with the buff, the better return you get on your investment.

- Ergo they work best in support of one big unit, be it Knights or Warriors or anything else. There's very little point in buffing 10 Warriors when you could buff 20 instead and get double the effectiveness. Using them with 2 small units of Warriors is sub-optimal, but so is using them with knights, because the knights will quickly out-distance it and also prevent it from effectively guarding a flank (it's best job).

- They stack very well. I would consider taking two, but I like the "Shoot me!" presence of the Shaggoth that keeps missile fire off my Warriors. Double the shrines equals double the chance to get a useful result (duh), and if you get two good results then a block of Warriors can become stupidly scary (I'm talking a core infantry choice with anything up to 4 S5 I5 WS5 attacks each and T5 with a 3+ save vs shooting and 4+ in combat if you have Mark of Khorne, Halberds, Shields and two shrines powering them up). Put a character with the 5pt Favour of the Gods in there and watch it eat a hole in anything - you get rerolls to both Shrine blessings.

- On the downside, you're eating Rare slots with units that will generally not kill very much. Basically the equivalent of 3 Warriors with basic hand weapons (No thunderstomp makes me cry). Compared to Hellcannons, Shaggoths and even Giants (maybe?) Warshrines are not going to kill anywhere near as much. In my mind, that is where the rest of the army comes in - but sometimes it's nice to have a ranged option (Cannon) or a giant scary creature (the rest).

In summary, Warshines are at their best when the rest of the list presents them with a good target for their powers. If the entire rest of the list is made of 10 man Maurauder units then it's not going to end well. If, on the other hand, you have a meaty block of Warriors then you can count on them performing above and beyond expectations.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
When I asked about the warshrine from the organisers and GW, they said mark of khorne gives it 3 attacks extra, for 3 constituent parts (two warriors and a steed), giving it 8 attacks, however a 3+ ward is a really alluring proposition for the warshrine in terms of making it a highly effective fire magnet.

I agree and disagree on the knights simultaneously, whilst lore of metal will make me cry with the knights, I think given most armies have bad saves in general, that lore of metal will be uncommon in a tournament setting, what do you think as for that? I feel that many people will take lore of fire, or life, something which is universally applicable, especially with all the hype around hoard units?

I actually have found Slanesh to be really effective, the level 6 spell is really useful, especially against hoard units as it will knock out half of a toughness 3 unit. The one that forces them to move in a certain direction I have also found to be really useful, in getting powerful units out of the battle and also in stopping war machines. Hellshriek is useful too, once you knock out the BSB, however in terms of damage I find tzeentch to be tempting and I can get a similar movement speed with a tzeentchian sorceer on a disc as I can from a slaneshi sorc on the steed of slanesh...

You've given me some great things to think about, the only thing I remain convinced on as to its use is the hellcannon, in 8th edition these things are yet to fail to make their points back for me.

-against aggressive armies I just charge them in and hit them with 5S5 and a thunderstomp every turn.
-against defensive armies I pie plate every turn, there's only a 33% chance of a direct hit, but when it hits it's taking out 10-15 models every go, along with knocking out cannons, bolt throwers and other nasties reliably.

(this is all based on 8th edition sorry, forgot to mention)
 

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When I asked about the warshrine from the organisers and GW, they said mark of khorne gives it 3 attacks extra, for 3 constituent parts (two warriors and a steed), giving it 8 attacks, however a 3+ ward is a really alluring proposition for the warshrine in terms of making it a highly effective fire magnet.
I call shenannigans. If it has three seperate characteristic profiles in the same manner as a Chariot then I *might* consider it, but it doesn't. It has one statline, therefore it is only increased once.

I agree and disagree on the knights simultaneously, whilst lore of metal will make me cry with the knights, I think given most armies have bad saves in general, that lore of metal will be uncommon in a tournament setting, what do you think as for that? I feel that many people will take lore of fire, or life, something which is universally applicable, especially with all the hype around hoard units?
I think that it's rather dependant on your local meta-game. If there are lots of WoC players locally then expect to see Metal floating around. If everyone plays Skaven on the other hand... :)
 

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There's another part to the whole LoM thing, it isn't just for killing well-armored units. Final Transmutation can work wonders against low leadership horde armies, killing a third of one unit, then making everyone around them take stupid. Glittering Robe is awesome for practically everyone, the debuffs are conversely quite useful against practically everyone. They might miss out on one spell and the signature, but the others will be useful.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I call shenannigans. If it has three seperate characteristic profiles in the same manner as a Chariot then I *might* consider it, but it doesn't. It has one statline, therefore it is only increased once.



I think that it's rather dependant on your local meta-game. If there are lots of WoC players locally then expect to see Metal floating around. If everyone plays Skaven on the other hand... :)
In the tournament I'm going in, WoC and other similarly heavily armoured forces are rare (of 50 there was one WoC last year, and nothing else heavily armoured).

The issue with the +1A is in some situations, for example the chariot, the price tag of the frenzy doesn't fit with the unit in question. 30pts for frenzy on a chariot, whilst it's 15 for a chaos lord? In light of the comparison it makes sense for it to be costed at least for the two warriors themselves, not JUST a single warrior. The warshrine does state that it is made up of two warriors and a steed. If it really is 30pts for a single crappy attack then tzeentch wins hands down.
 

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In the tournament I'm going in, WoC and other similarly heavily armoured forces are rare (of 50 there was one WoC last year, and nothing else heavily armoured).
Assuming that everyone else is intelligent enough to look at the Meta, then that makes Metal much less likely, but the traditional drawbacks to Deathstar units still apply - it's up to you if that's the army you want to run. :)

The issue with the +1A is in some situations, for example the chariot, the price tag of the frenzy doesn't fit with the unit in question. 30pts for frenzy on a chariot, whilst it's 15 for a chaos lord? In light of the comparison it makes sense for it to be costed at least for the two warriors themselves, not JUST a single warrior. The warshrine does state that it is made up of two warriors and a steed. If it really is 30pts for a single crappy attack then tzeentch wins hands down.
The thing is, it says at the start of the list exactly what each Mark does and the only exceptions to it are the ones specifically stated in the unit entries which overwrite the default effects. As far as I know the only units to have such entries are Giants and Spawn. Yes, the points might be out of wack, but unless there's a serious typo that they haven't fixed in two seperate FAQs, that's just tough cookies. Mmm. Cookies. :laugh:
 

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I'm not 100% sold on big lords on monstrous creatures yet. Cannons are just too big a risk I think. Your Charmed Shield should help the first hit, unless it just murders your Dragon as well. It's a big points sink for something that can be so easily hit.

Aramoro
 

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I'd never field a dragon myself for exactly that reason - when I've played against other people who DO field Lords on expensive monster mounts they've had very little impact on the game, while my units of Chaos Warriors which cost the same have had significant impact all the time. However I assumed that the Dragon-Lord thing was something he was very keen to include so I didn't recommend dropping it.
 

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The warshrine does state that it is made up of two warriors and a steed.
I have gone through the Army Book several times and cannot find the reference for this; there is nothing in the unit description on page 126 and the fluff description on page 58 of the Army book says they are usually pulled into battle by Chaos Steeds goaded by handlers, then goes on in the rule to say that the profile combines a Chaos Steed and Chaos Warrior handlers.

Are there two editions of the Army Book or is the exact number of Warriors somewhere else?
 

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I have gone through the Army Book several times and cannot find the reference for this; there is nothing in the unit description on page 126 and the fluff description on page 58 of the Army book says they are usually pulled into battle by Chaos Steeds goaded by handlers, then goes on in the rule to say that the profile combines a Chaos Steed and Chaos Warrior handlers.

Are there two editions of the Army Book or is the exact number of Warriors somewhere else?
"Designer's Note: [...] Its profile combines the attacks of its Chaos Warrior handlers and also the Chaos Steed that pulls it to battle."
Interestingly enough, the picture has two horses and one warrior. :p

But still, I call bullshit on what you've been told, Nagash. The model has one profile, not multipe ones like the Chariot. Consequently, theres only +1A from MoK's Frenzy.
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Look at page 58, designers notes:
"combines attacks of its chaos warrior handlers and also the chaos steed that pulls it to battle". I find it to be uncertain at best though I must agree. However given the attacks profile of 5, 'handlerS and steed', I find it inferable that it has 3 constituent parts. If that is in fact not true, then I would definitely be swapping for the mark of tzeentch and just keeping my khornate modelled shrine.

Generally, what I do in 8th edition to stop the dragon being cannonball sniped is the following:

1. In 8th edition, if a monstrous target is not slain by a cannonball, the cannonball stops, in addition to that, fences and barricades now stop a cannonball but are destroyed.
2. Place the warshrine sideways infront of the target you want to protect, if you have a mark of tzeentch, this in effect gives your dragon a 3+ ward save versus cannonballs, unless they are really lucky their chances of bouncing it over the top are very very slim, generally 1/6. (it's cheesy, but so is losing a dragon in the first turn to a 100pt unit). I have found that most people won't fire a cannon with the 3+ ward in place.
3. Move the dragon into cover if possible, failing that move the warshrine up it's 8" with the dragon directly behind it. This will put you 16-18" away from enemy units, so in your second turn you can charge and reasonably reliably get the charge off, if it fails simply move the warshrine up again to protect the dragon.
4. Whilst that happens, the hellcannons will hopefully have sniped the enemy cannons, the bonus of this tactic is it seems to provoke paranoia in war machine users, tending to target everything towards the dragon/warshrine, generally without much effect.
5. Engaged versus a hoard unit you can reliably expect it to knock them out quite rapidly with two breathe weapons, thunderstomp, around 13 attacks at S5/6.
6. Knights move up to support, splitting their fire between yet another unit.

The knights, originally were put in a large unit, instead of my usual two smaller units to:
Maximise on blasted standard
Minimise on cost for marks and command.

Sethis is right, my main reason for the dragon is that I love it to bits (stupid logic in a tournament I know!) and have worked to find ways to make it work. Generally I have found its greatest impact is on my opponent psychologically, they tend to spend their entire game trying to counter/avoid it out of fear (being rarely seen even the experienced ones fall for this). With the new breathe weapons I've had it wipe entire units off of the field, I faced an 80 man empire unit and knocked out a good 30-40 of them with the two breath weapons.

In the new rules, dragons don't lose you VP or fortitude unless the Dragon AND the Lord are slain, so in win at all cost games, if it's mortally wounded, it hides behind a building in a corner :D.

I'm interested to get some comments on my army, which is essentially based around two main objectives: Points denial and target saturation.

With this edition requiring complete annihilation of the enemy unit to score victory points, larger units are harder to wipe off of the table, so by fielding knights in a unit of 9 it's easier for me to keep them alive, than if they were in two separate units (barring lore of metal naturally). One 'counter' I had to the knight issue, was to give a character in the unit the wrath of khorne (2+ ward versus magic). The hellcannons and dragon share the points sink aspects of the knights. This makes the army in general, very hard to score many/any points from, compared to the enemy army in which I can knock out marginal numbers of units and come away with a strong victory.

The second aspect is target saturation, in combat I have virtually nothing to fear, my biggest concern is ranged attacks, by having 4 big and nasty targets, the enemy war machines have a very large number of targets to pick from, making it more confusing and difficult for them to pick the correct target at the correct time.
 

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"Designer's Note: [...] Its profile combines the attacks of its Chaos Warrior handlers and also the Chaos Steed that pulls it to battle."
Interestingly enough, the picture has two horses and one warrior. :p
I was aware of the designers note; however that does not give numbers. My specific query was to there being two Warriors and one steed, making three parts. Is there any reference than one sketch of a Warshrine for specific numbers?

Being humorous for a moment, if I model a Tzeentchian Warshrine with nine Warriors does it get a better statline as it now has 10 parts:grin:?
 

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I was aware of the designers note; however that does not give numbers. My specific query was to there being two Warriors and one steed, making three parts. Is there any reference than one sketch of a Warshrine for specific numbers?

Being humorous for a moment, if I model a Tzeentchian Warshrine with nine Warriors does it get a better statline as it now has 10 parts:grin:?
Oh wait, if I replace the steeds with a Chaos Spawn, the Warriors with Exalted Heroes and put a Sorcerer on top of the Warshrine and then give them MoT... :laugh:

@Nagash

Well the idea looks good on paper so I think its ready for testing. You know: no amount of wisdom can save anyone from having to gain experience by themselves. :)
 

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A have a freind who's shrine is pulled by a Spawn with a sorceror on top!
 

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A have a freind who's shrine is pulled by a Spawn with a sorceror on top!
Your friend stole my idea. :( But then again its not exactly a "nobody ever thought of it" type of idea so I can forgive him... for now. :p :laugh:
 

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I find it inferable that it has 3 constituent parts. If that is in fact not true, then I would definitely be swapping for the mark of tzeentch and just keeping my khornate modelled shrine.
Rules as written, it gets +1 Attack. Just paint it blue. Or something. :laugh:

4. Whilst that happens, the hellcannons will hopefully have sniped the enemy cannons, the bonus of this tactic is it seems to provoke paranoia in war machine users, tending to target everything towards the dragon/warshrine, generally without much effect.
I'm confused - you use Hellcannons to kill crew? New rules state you use the Toughness of the machine for all shooting attacks, and most Machines are T7 - 6s to wound even if you hit, and no multiple wounds. have I got that right?

5. Engaged versus a hoard unit you can reliably expect it to knock them out quite rapidly with two breathe weapons, thunderstomp, around 13 attacks at S5/6.
In combat, assume 3 casualities from one breath, same from the stomp, same from the rider and dragon attacks. 12 Infantry assuming they make no saves. In return they hit you with about 12 attacks, causing maybe 1 wound. You win the combat by a large margin, but - and this is the important bit - you have no ranks, which makes them stubborn. They probably don't break. Your ~700pt Lord is locked for two turns with a 200pt unit, which isn't really an efficient use of his time. Assuming during that time he doesn't get flanked by something, the infantry is totally vanilla and your opponent doesn't do anything nasty.

The knights, originally were put in a large unit, instead of my usual two smaller units to:
Maximise on blasted standard
Minimise on cost for marks and command.
Good call there, but you can do it while still not having 9 of them. I think the unit will perform the function they are required to with only 7 at most.

Sethis is right, my main reason for the dragon is that I love it to bits (stupid logic in a tournament I know!) and have worked to find ways to make it work. Generally I have found its greatest impact is on my opponent psychologically, they tend to spend their entire game trying to counter/avoid it out of fear (being rarely seen even the experienced ones fall for this).
If it works for you, then it works for you. Have fun terrorising the local villagers! :eek:k:

I'm interested to get some comments on my army, which is essentially based around two main objectives: Points denial and target saturation.
Works if VPs from dead units are the only way to win, have you checked what kind of Scenarios you're playing in the tourney? If, for example you play the Banner + Quarters game, you have 3 banners, 2 of which are on (fairly)easily killed units. Not a great setup. If, however, you just need to kill stuff on a 6x4 table then it should work ok.

The problem with the target saturation theory is that it only works if they have one unit to deal with a specific problem, and you have multiple copies of that specific problem. To use a 40k allegory, many mechanised armies use target saturation as a tactic. You only have 4 anti-tank guns but they have 6 tanks, while the rest of your army sits around twiddling their thumbs, unable to affect the tanks. To use a real-life allegory, if I only have one rifle with 3 bullets, and 5 tigers run at me, then I'm screwed, because I don't have any other weapons effective against tigers.

However this is less applicable in Fantasy than in 40k. Everything can hurt everything else (regardless of the odds). I've seen Gnoblar Sharp Stuff take 3 wounds off a Steam Tank in one round of shooting. Not only that, you are not presenting identical targets. You have:

A character on a monster
A wizard
Some Infantry
Some Knights
Some War Machines

Odds are, your opponent will have something in his army to deal with each of these choices. I know when I choose armies I make sure to cover all of those bases during the selection process. Yes, you have 4 scary units, but they are 3 different types of unit, therefore your opponent is free to use 3 different strategies to deal with them. He can send flyers/light cav at your cannon, magic missile your lord off his dragon and bog down your knights with infantry blocks. This is not true target saturation, because you're not overwhelming one aspect of his defence - you're applying equal pressure to three of them. True target saturation would be if you had more Hellcannons than he has units to deal with them, or more Knights than he could bog down, and so on. The problem is, in WFB, unlike 40k it is incredibly difficult to make a one-sided list like that and expect to do well. It's one of the reasons I like Fantasy - you can't have a unit of 10 Terminators with 3 Special Characters attached and laugh as it eats everything, you have to create a fairly balanced army.

The main thrust of my argument is in italics, I hope I've made myself clear.

Finally, it is your army. You can play it however you like. I am not telling you to do anything or insisting that you change something. I'm just offering advice on what looks like a pretty solid list that is very different in playstyle to the ones I normally create. :)
 
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