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One of the most overriding questions I've had about 8th Edition has been how the new edition will change how Warriors of Chaos play. Now that I've had a chance to sit down and study the new rulebook in depth, here's what stands out to me.

-Chaos Knights seem to have lost their edge in a serious way. I'm not actually sure they're a viable unit due to the Steadfast rule. If you could realistically afford a unit of 10, then they start to be better, I think, but since units with more ranks are functionally Stubborn, I'm not sure what point there is to having a heavy cavalry unit thats job is to be able to smash through in one turn of brutal, overwhelming combat.

-No longer being able to pack a "golf bag" for Warriors changes some things, as well. One of the strengths of the army was that you could give Warriors a two-handed weapon of some description and a shield, and use either the hand weapon and shield or the halberd/greataxe as the situation warranted. Since any special weapon must be used in favor of a hand weapon now, there's a distinct change in the flexibility that has been a staple of Warriors of Chaos.

A couple things on the weapons do stand out to me, though. With the reworking of the Frenzy rules, GW clearly doesn't want you passing out shields to your Warriors of Khorne. I still think the point of armor the shield provides is worthwhile since the unit still fights with the same number of attacks as any other god's unit with two hand weapons; however, the "parry" bonus is lost on the Frenzied units. It'll remain to be seen whether two hand weapons or halberds will become the weapon of choice for Warriors of Khorne, or if shields will still prove to be a viable option for them.

-Great weapons most certainly have lost their edge with Warriors of Khorne (and everyone else, really, but greataxes on berserkers has been a very popular option), since everything always fights at its Initiative. Passing out the great axes wastes the Initiative 5 that has made Warriors so deadly in protracted combats in the past, and means that they'll be forgoing striking first most of the time in the new rules if they're wielding great weapons. Halberds clearly have become the superior weapon for the mortal servants of the ruinous powers, as two-handed implements go.

-Warriors of Tzeentch under the current (7th) rules are lackluster at best. However, with a shield in 8th Edition, they're actually a fairly tough nut to crack, and put up as good a fight as any other Warriors of Chaos. A 3+ armor save followed by a 5+ ward from the shield is nothing to sneer at. While magic has been seriously altered, I think the Lord of Change is on the rise with mortals.

-Forsaken. Forsaken have been a terrible unit, largely because they're slightly overcosted. Thematically, they're very cool, though, and given the changes in how charging works, their higher move value might actually mean they'll find a place in Warriors of Chaos armies now. Their lower armor compared to Warriors seems less problematic when you consider that most things have lost a point of armor due to the change in shield rules, to boot. Since Knights seem very iffy under the new rules, Forsaken might actually fill that gap nicely, as they're not appreciably slower.

-Marauders. Marauders in general have never been particularly impressive to me. However, the emphasis 8th Edition has placed on huge units may change their utility from simply being cannon fodder to being a valuable line unit. Marauders might actually be able to use the Steadfast rule to their advantage, and hold enemy units in place so the Warriors can get an advantageous charge. As it's currently stood, having a unit of Marauders that was much more than a one-turn flail/great weapon missile hasn't amounted to anything, so it'll be worth seeing if the Marauders will function as they've really been intended to under the new rules. Overall, I do think they're much more viable as a main line unit, though.

-Marauder Horsemen. Marauder Horsemen may actually take over some of the Chaos Knight duties, oddly enough. They're cheap enough that you can afford to bring a unit of 10, and with flails, they hit just as hard in the first round of combat as the Knights (albeit with one less attack each.) Given the heavy hit the effectiveness of cavalry seems to have taken in the 8th Edition rules, relatively inexpensive horsemen might be able to skirt around the inherent disadvantages cavalry face (namely, the Steadfast rule.) Keep an eye on Marauder Horsemen, I think-- they may become a staple of competitive armies.

-Chosen. Chosen have always been an excellent unit. A lot of the same changes that effect basic Warriors units apply to them, but due to the army composition changes, you can actually field MORE Chosen than you previously could. However, I'm not sure that they're going to be worth bringing over "basic" Warriors. The 8th Edition rules seem to heavily favor large units, and you're flirting with 300 points for a unit of 10 Chosen in a lot of cases-- not something that's necessarily cost-effective under the new rules. Rather than being an infantry version of a death star unit, the Chosen may be relegated to a supporting task, or possibly even replaced as a staple special choice by Forsaken, which I really think may shine under the new rules.


Overall, I think the new rules are hit and miss for Chaos generals-- our character allotment has changed quite a bit, and unlike some armies who can spam 40-point Heroes, we're still looking at 150-200-point Exalted Heroes. The consistent strength of units of Warriors will likely come to the fore even more, I think, to make up for what's ultimately a diminished number of highly effective characters. Finding a replacement for Chaos Knights, who I really don't see being effective under the new rules, will also be a challenge, as the role they played in virtually every Chaos army was relatively vital.

Please, feel free to chime in, fellow Chaos Lords-- I'm curious what the community at large thinks about how the new edition will change our armies of the blasted north.
 

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With the new rules, I think Marauders have taken over for best killiness, but Chaos Warriors still fill the niche of being an incredibly resilient unit. As a result, my favorite setup for Marauders is 30 with full command and great weapons. My favorite setup for Chaos Warriors is 18-25 with shields, mark of Tzeentch, halberds, musician, and standard. If you have the points, the banner of endless rage is also nice.

Chosen are a better choice then ever, with the new rules. My favorite setup is 18-25 with shields, mark of Nurgle, halberds, full command, favor of the Gods, and the banner of endless rage. I chose Nurgle over tzeentch because it will cause enemies that normally have WS 3 to only hit them on 5's. With the favor, you'll also be very likely to roll a result that will make them even tougher than normal!

Ogres with great weapons are now a solid choice. They kill about as much as Chaos Knights, while costing about 2/3 the cost. They aren't as tough or fast as the Knights, and they attack after their opponent, but they're still a bargain.

What really lost out are the units that don't have standards. Most of the missions revolve around your standard bearers one way or the other, and only units with standards can claim objectives. As an additional bonus, standards now only give your opponent 25 points if they're caught.

As a result, the units that can't take standards, like Forsaken, Trolls, Chaos Spawn, Giants, and Chariots, all got less useful (although Chariots got other boosts from the new codex).
 

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As I've not seen the new rules in detail I won't go over the top here but, aren't cavalry getting a tunder charge rule? this shouls help the knights and horsemen.

I think the ogres get the biggest boost with their stomp, and same with the giant, DOs and DOSs

The hardest place chaos get hit is the characters, all our characters are really expensive, so less magic and less super killy characters
 

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haven't seen the new rules and so, though i and my knornate army dread to ask . . .
what have they done to frenzy?
 

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I think it's "no parry bonus". The Parry bonus is a 6+ ward. This is for HW/shield combination. It replaces the +1 armor.
 

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i dont think great weapons have become untakeable.

imagine you have 40 warriors, 10 wide.
your enemy strikes first, your pretty tough, lets say they have 40 attacks, 20 hit[4+] 7 wound[5+] and you save[4+] 3.
you attack back with your great weapons, 26 hit if you have better ws, and about 21 wound at str6 so -3 save.

i think you win that fight :)
 

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I think it's "no parry bonus". The Parry bonus is a 6+ ward. This is for HW/shield combination. It replaces the +1 armor.
You are also not required to charge if you pass a LD test. But if you fail you have to charge the closest target.
 

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Yes, if you pass the Ld, you can charge any legal target instead of the closest one (or not charge at all).

Played against a knight-based WoC army today, and got raped. Admittedly, my Level 4 killing herself on turn one with a Misfired Purple Sun wasn't a good way to begin. I might have done better if I'd managed to pass a single leadership test (which I didn't) but even so, the high Initiative of Knights and their mounts (and stupid Marks) means they are still very choppy and heavily armoured enough to take some hits back. You're not going to break people on the charge as much, but they will happily spend two turns carving through anything that isn't combat-specialists.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Yes, if you pass the Ld, you can charge any legal target instead of the closest one (or not charge at all).

Played against a knight-based WoC army today, and got raped. Admittedly, my Level 4 killing herself on turn one with a Misfired Purple Sun wasn't a good way to begin. I might have done better if I'd managed to pass a single leadership test (which I didn't) but even so, the high Initiative of Knights and their mounts (and stupid Marks) means they are still very choppy and heavily armoured enough to take some hits back. You're not going to break people on the charge as much, but they will happily spend two turns carving through anything that isn't combat-specialists.
That's interesting. I have been debating what I'll do with my Knights when 8th comes out-- as it stands, I use them as a HULK SMASH! unit lead by my Lord on a juggernaut. If they're still able to chop through in a couple rounds, they're still usable. But if they're not able to cut through in less than three rounds, it seems like the points might as well just go into a unit of Warriors.
 

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Well a unit of ~6 knights with a Lord on Juggernaught got charged by 18 Grave Guard and ate them like I eat KFC.

Fast, messy, and then looking for more.

Nice thing is that you are now just as good on the charge, being charged, and locked. Fundamentally there is no difference between the three states to Cavalry that doesn't use Lances.
 

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the steadfast rules sounds like utter bullshit. a unit of heavy cavalry should be able to punch through infantry easily.
 

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Have you ever seen what happens when heavy cavalry charge Spear/Pikemen? Braveheart depicts it pretty well...

 

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Of all armies Chaos have fared the worst in 8th edition.

Move to Percentages
Chaos can't get more choices as a result of percentages, if anything we get less choices, our choices were always so expensive that to get say, 4 specials was usually a stretch as it was. Our heroes being so expensive work out being the same in number, or less than previously, a big minus when you think that you're fighting 15 goblin warbosses.....sure they such but that many of them will take their toll.

Loss of the charge
We needed this to make the most of our units, sure they were slow but with careful maneuvering you charged and broke units, chaos relied on wiping out the front rank to be cost effective. Now you have to weather inodinate amounts of missile fire due to firing in two ranks (nfi why GW did that given how OP gunlines are already...) then when you finally charge the 1-2 blocks they have, you can't avoid casualties. Which means your poor warriors won't be even slightly cost effective, where is the 18pts of value when you fight an orc block worth sweet FA points, but by the time you kill it they knock out 5-6 warriors.

Stubborn
Now when you attack a unit, you have to waste time slugging it out, coupled with travel time, your warriors will likely fight/kill one unit a game. On top of that, warriors will never have more ranks than almost any army out there, so the odds of them breaking enemy units by that virtue is slim to none, it comes down to a war of attrition, warriors fail at that, that much is certain.

Thankfully the hellcannons are better now which will help me fight longrange better than anyone except bretonians (trebuchet). My chaos lord on dragon is now un-doable except at about 2500pts and not properly until 3000 and then it's my entire lord allowance :(. The changes to forests and cannons means the dragons life will be short lived indeed, forests no longer block line of sight and don't offer cover to monsters. Cannons now also hit the rider and mount every time, which is pretty bad for anyone who likes a big monster, monsters in general will become unviable now I think, with the focus going towards units as GW wanted to milk more cash. Monsters were cheap for how many points they provided, so it seemed obvious that monsters would get hated on.
 

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Chaos have benefited as much as any army with the new rules.
While you wont always break infantry on the first turn your good ws,init,attacks will see you cut through nearly any other core choice and your save will help you shrug off return attacks.
While units of 40+ chaos warriors are unlikely do you really need them as each warrior is twice as good as pretty much all basic infantry.
Percentages shouldnt affect your army as much as you expect half of your army can be from the character section and as your hero's are in most cases better and there is not so much need to max out on casters you should be able to win with them Quality over quantity.
Warriors have good initiative and an excellent armour save when combined with the highest WS of any normal trooper how many casualties are you really expecting to take before or after you decimate rank after rank of lowly state troops or orcs.
You can now spam marauders with great effect if you are worried about being outnumbered and your warriors still out class most peoples special choices.
 

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From what little knowledge and wisdom I possess, I think that we can no longer spam Tzeentchian Sorcerers on Discs (are Discs still a good idea btw?) and charge our laser as we used to, but focus on few characters but they must be carefully geared so they could make the most difference. For instance, instead of two Sorcerers in a 1000 point list (pretty standard methinks), you could take a Sorcerer Lord with Enchanted Shield (250pts) and Lore of Death and let him work his magic.

Another thing I noticed is that fielding Slaaneshi Marauders is going to be a must, since we simply can't buy enough Warriors that would resist the zerg rush of horde armies, let alone beat them. So I think that Marauder blocks will be necessary in the future, but not as a replacement of the Warriors, but more of a "delivery system", so to speak, so that our opponents will have to decide between grinding the meatshield of frostbitten vikings or blast away our Warriors. Focus fire could achieve either goal, but will probably fail in saving the army's arse, since the other half of our forces will get there and cut them to pieces, either with the math of Marauders or the might of Warriors.

Regarding our Special choices, I think that if our Marauders and Warriors can deal with fleshswamps, then our Chosen with Halberds can deal with their more interesting units. Alternatively, we could use still Chariots to run over them, or perhaps the Forsaken that seem to be favoured by the gods of the 8th edition. And it is reassuring that our Warshrine remains a solid choice as ever. :)

The Gods seem to be more balanced now, all of them have their use, you just have to find the right place. For instance, Marauders are still best with MoS, since they're cowards. :p Warriors need a little more hitting power in terms of numbers, so halberds (or maybe 2xCCWs?) and a MoK would be best, especially with their great Ld that could mitigate the ill side effects of Frenzy. Or you could go the other way and increase their survivability with Shields and MoT. MoN looks like a good idea almost everywhere thats not a Marauder but it will cost you a lot of points.

Do tell me if I'm right or wrong, I'm curious. :)
 

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I don't think marauders will become necessary to be honest, they just aren't really worth it, crappy survivability, crappy damage dealing, just crappy in general.

To be honest the biggest dissuasion for me with marauders is they look like some BDSM fetish gone wrong, can't stand the models as a general rule, I got chaos for the massive and cool looking brutes that are chaos warriors.

Currently I'm running with (8th){2500}
24 warriors
20 hounds
sorcerer of slanesh with spell fam, steed slanesh, roar
10 knights
2 hellcannons
chaos lord on dragon
exalted hero bsb

So far it's worked really well, slanesh magic is the best I find (personal opinion) as it manipulates the flow of battle and the top spell allows no saves (great for raping daemons down :D). I want to try to swap 3 chariots for the 10 knights, gives me 12 wounds, T5 and a 3+ save, potentially more survivable.
 

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Move to Percentages
Chaos can't get more choices as a result of percentages, if anything we get less choices, our choices were always so expensive that to get say, 4 specials was usually a stretch as it was. Our heroes being so expensive work out being the same in number, or less than previously, a big minus when you think that you're fighting 15 goblin warbosses.....sure they such but that many of them will take their toll.
I don't see any particular loss here. I will happily take one Level 4 mage over four Level 1s any day of the week. Just because you can't field a half dozen characters does not make your army worse. Elves of any kind can't spam characters either, and it doesn't hurt them. In 2500pts you can easily have a Sorcerer and 2 combat characters, no problem. That sounds fine to me.

Loss of the charge
We needed this to make the most of our units, sure they were slow but with careful maneuvering you charged and broke units, chaos relied on wiping out the front rank to be cost effective. Now you have to weather inodinate amounts of missile fire due to firing in two ranks (nfi why GW did that given how OP gunlines are already...) then when you finally charge the 1-2 blocks they have, you can't avoid casualties. Which means your poor warriors won't be even slightly cost effective, where is the 18pts of value when you fight an orc block worth sweet FA points, but by the time you kill it they knock out 5-6 warriors.
The loss of the charge has benefited Chaos almost as much as Elves. Now you are just as good at fighting in all circumstances. If you get charged by other infantry, so what? You're still striking first almost all the time anyway. If you do get the charge, you just get +1 combat res, which is nice but not essential. Finally you are armed/armoured/tough enough to beat the snot out of basic block infantry, and you only need about 2 ranks to do it. With Marks you're still among the best heavy infantry in the game, and you're a core choice. Most other armies don't have infantry blocks with better than a 3/3/3/3/1/3/1/7 profile until they hit Special.

Stubborn
Now when you attack a unit, you have to waste time slugging it out, coupled with travel time, your warriors will likely fight/kill one unit a game. On top of that, warriors will never have more ranks than almost any army out there, so the odds of them breaking enemy units by that virtue is slim to none, it comes down to a war of attrition, warriors fail at that, that much is certain.
You're still going to be winning most rounds of combat, and unless he has a character in the unit (that you should be challenging and killing, or attacking with more than 1 unit of warriors) he's only going to be Ld 7 or 8 and will on average break after 2 lost combat rounds. No, you can't steamroll someone easily any more. It doesn't mean you now suck. You're hitting and wounding most other infantry on 3s, and they're hitting on 4s and wounding on 5s. They get 5/6+ saves, and you get 4/5+. Statistically, you win that war of attrition pretty convincingly.

My chaos lord on dragon is now un-doable except at about 2500pts and not properly until 3000 and then it's my entire lord allowance :(. The changes to forests and cannons means the dragons life will be short lived indeed, forests no longer block line of sight and don't offer cover to monsters. Cannons now also hit the rider and mount every time, which is pretty bad for anyone who likes a big monster, monsters in general will become unviable now I think, with the focus going towards units as GW wanted to milk more cash. Monsters were cheap for how many points they provided, so it seemed obvious that monsters would get hated on.
Dragons were always meant to be incredibly rare anyway. Now they simply fit the fluff. I don't see a problem with not allowing some of the most scarce creatures in the Old World to be included until 3000pts or so. Also, the stats of the dragons will probably be altered when you get a new codex, for example the Horned Fire Dragon (that you can transform into with the 6th spell in Lore of Beasts) is 8/0/8/8/8/1/8/10 profile. Nasty piece of work.
 
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